Prejudice for the gayers
A few years ago, I worked for a large NHS trust in London. Although anyone who knows what I do will work it out, I'm going to keep the specific name of the Trust out of this answer.

Being gay in the NHS is not at all generally frowned upon, and in fact, I have only ever had one or two experiences of homophobic prejudice, and both of those times they have not been directed at me, but at someone else (generally someone extremely camp, but more of that later.)

Anyway, one day I was approached by a member of staff from another part of the trust, who I knew vaguely well. The conversation went thusly:

"Hello Carrot. Just wondering what you are doing on 18th August?"
"Er, not much, why?"
"Well it's Gay Pride, and I've been asked to organise our parade for the Trust."
"Very nice, congratulations. And you're telling me this....why?"
"Well, you're gay aren't you?"
"Yes"
"So you'll come along and march in the parade" [this was not phrased as a question, it was a statement of fact]
"No"
"I'm sorry?"
"No, I wont."
"Why?"
"Because I don't want to."
"But...but...you're gay!"

The guy didn't seem to understand that despite the fact I was a lover of Teh Cock, the last thing I wanted to do was prance down Old Compton Street dressed in green. My refusal actually generated a few problems and a few unpleasant moments before I left, as I was seen as some kind of fabulous and well-dressed traitor.

So here's the thing. As a gay man, I am prejudiced against gay men!

If you are an admirer of the male form, there is no need to start speaking like Frankie Howard and Julian Clary's bastard love child.

Sucking cock does not, as far as I am aware, stretch the tendons in your wrist.

Loving it in the marmite cave does not give you the right to dress in lurid colours, take vast quantities of poppers and amphetamines, and dance until 5am to shit music before being dry buttfucked by some rough trade called Bruce in a back alley in Vauxhall.

My point is this: I do not see the point in gay "pride". I am not proud to be gay. Being gay is something you are born with - let's not fuck around here, it's innate not learned. I didn't have to pass any tests to become a raving bender. I am gay. I am also catholic, and have brown hair. I don't take "pride" in either of these things, nor am I ashamed of them, like my sexuality.

The best way to deal with prejudice is to act in a manner that encourages acceptance. The self-exclusion of elements of gay society is putting this process back by years. Until people identify being gay as being part of the normal spectrum of human sexuality, this cause is going to be stopped from progressing.

So, homos, please put down the Julie Andrews biography, step away from the musical theatre DVD collection, put on some old jeans and a scruffy t-shirt and for fuck's sake, stop living up to your own sterotype.
( Undercovercarrot got done for gross misconduct on..., Sun 4 Apr 2010, 10:42, 45 replies)

*votes in as president*
Well said. A chap at uni came out and all of a sudden 'gay' was his only personality trait. Whatever happened, whoever he slapped, slagged behind their back and generally stitched up, it was because "I'm gay, so deal with it." It was like he had abdicated all of his previous life, mannerisms and social skills just because he had labelled himself. No-one gave a crap that he was gay - quite a few people in the department were - but he made out like any disagreement, no matter what it was about, was because we were supposedly being homophopbic.
( Colonel Boris "...a desperate Buzzfeed imitation...", Sun 4 Apr 2010, 10:49, closed)

Was he
The Only Gay In The Department?
(Juan Quar is clinging to her front teeth on, Sun 4 Apr 2010, 13:01, closed)

Not by a long way.

( Colonel Boris "...a desperate Buzzfeed imitation...", Sun 4 Apr 2010, 14:36, closed)

Wonderful! More gay people should be like you
There are so many people who seem unable to separate a sexual preference from their behaviour in other aspects of their life. As if being gay = being camp.

I am a straight guy - but I'm not at all macho: I'm sensisitve, dislike sport, I love Eurovision music etc. There have been so many times people have assumed I was gay - and I've had to explain to them that those other factors have nothing whatsoever to do with which gender I am physically attracted to.

I often thought that the "pride" people are doing themselves a disservice, because they're deliberately segregating themselves out from society. Assuming that the ultimate "equal rights" goal for gay people is that sexual orientation be seen as nothing more spooky than the fact that some people have different colour hair - and are treated no different because of it (which I agree with) - then they're going about it all the wrong way, by camping it up.
(EuroSong I love horse meat: best of all the animals, Sun 4 Apr 2010, 11:36, closed)

this reminds me of something my lesbian pal was complaining about
"why are so many lesbians trying to look butch? i fancy WOMEN ... i want them to look like women."
(ladyintheradiator, Sun 4 Apr 2010, 12:15, closed)

That's all down to taste I suppose.
I happen to like slightly butch women - or more to the point, androgynous ones. That doesn't mean I'll turn down someone who is utterly girlie though.
( Wicca'd Witch needs ideas for a new sig on..., Sun 4 Apr 2010, 13:40, closed)

The point about the gay pride march though
is that people do it because they CAN.

I'm old enough to remember the time when they couldn't, by law. Even for a long time afterwards and even still now, in some places.

It's about not taking hard fought-for rights for granted. These rights are being nibbled away at by certain parties.

For example, do a British gay couple want to adopt a child? Stay in a B&B? No chance, if the people they go to decline them on religious grounds. Not even if they're nice, quiet, soberly-dressed gay people who've never been on a march in their lives. People like you, in fact!
(Juan Quar is clinging to her front teeth on, Sun 4 Apr 2010, 13:22, closed)

This is also the point I was trying to make.

( Wicca'd Witch needs ideas for a new sig on..., Sun 4 Apr 2010, 13:36, closed)

They don't exactly march though do they
It's more of a mince.
(Wagane, Sun 4 Apr 2010, 15:19, closed)

But what if you like Julie Andrews and musical theatre? What if you are naturally camp, and are happy to be so?
Do you have to dress 'straight' and be macho just to fit in?

It's a great sentiment, but you're basically denigrating a lot of people who are just being themselves, and saying that if they want acceptance they have to conform to other people's idea of 'normal'. Which is a bit daft really.

The point of it is to feel free to be who you want to be, to be who you really are inside.

I can understand why you don't want to march, and I can understand your dislike of 'camp'. It's never good when it's forced and you can always tell when it is...but when it's natural, ohhhh it's good. I've witnessed queens reduce straight men to gibbering apologetic wrecks with one glance and a barbed comment.

As I said, I do understand...but it's not black and white. Without characters like John Inman, Julian and Sandy, Quentin Crisp, Kenneth Williams, Frankie Howerd etc, you might not have the acceptance you have today. Don't write it off so easily ;)
( Wicca'd Witch needs ideas for a new sig on..., Sun 4 Apr 2010, 13:35, closed)

Camp people don't tend to be the problem
It's when they've been naturally un-camp all their life, then turn into a big raging bender the minute that they come out.
(Iggy Pop's Teeth, Sun 4 Apr 2010, 13:51, closed)

You assume that they have been naturally un-camp though, and not putting on an act for that time.
Can you imagine the release that some people feel when they can finally be themselves? I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, but I can understand why someone might do that.

We've got a mate who was diagnosed with cancer at the age of 13. When he went into remission (aged 15), he decided that life was just too short to live a lie. He came out and was suddenly as camp as a row of pink tents - it wasn't an act, just who he was. He'd always been too scared to be himself, you see. He's calmed down a little over the years, but only a little. He couldn't give a flying brief relationship whether you accepted him or not, he is who he is.

He's incredibly brave. He did this in a rural secondary school, and was regularly beaten up for it. Yet he never decided to hide it away again, never tried to pretend to be someone he isn't.

Plus, he's ginger.

Imagine the pain. IMAGINE IT.
( Wicca'd Witch needs ideas for a new sig on..., Sun 4 Apr 2010, 14:02, closed)

Awww, bless him!
He sounds like a great lad.
(Juan Quar is clinging to her front teeth on, Sun 4 Apr 2010, 14:07, closed)

I agree with Juan
Sounds like a cracking lad
(Iggy Pop's Teeth, Sun 4 Apr 2010, 14:34, closed)

The vital word here is 'naturally'
as anyone who suddenly seems to become camp on coming out has probably been suppressing their inner 'raging bender' all their lives!
(Juan Quar is clinging to her front teeth on, Sun 4 Apr 2010, 14:06, closed)

Ummm....
I see your point but I have to disagree.

Where I get annoyed is that there is an idea amongst certain aspects of the gay community that by being homosexual then you have to be a die-hard supporter of gay rights. My sexual preference does not give me the duty of acting as an ambassador for my sexuality.

With regards to John Inman, Frankie Howerd etc., yes I agree that they helped make homosexuality more "mainstream" for want of a better word, but did they necessary further the cause, or did they make their own sexuality a source of ridicule for the common man? It can't be denied that in a way they did. My problem is not that people act in a camp manner, if they are genuinely born and bred, dyed in t'wool "camp" then that is fine.

You say that I am denigrating a lot of people, but I feel that a lot of the time, these people are denigrating my sexuality by unneccsary exaggeration of what are, a lot of the time (admittedly not all the time), entirely fabricated characteristics. It's the same as middle class white boys pretending to be lower class black boys.

In the UK, and bear in mind this is where I live so it is the only area I feel bound to comment, homosexuality is GENERALLY no longer a big deal. At all. And I applaud the efforts of those who have helped to make it so, whatever their background.
( Undercovercarrot got done for gross misconduct on..., Mon 5 Apr 2010, 16:54, closed)

I am inclined to agree with your first paragraph - or at least understand the sentiment.

( Wicca'd Witch needs ideas for a new sig on..., Tue 6 Apr 2010, 12:42, closed)

yeah

Most gays I know are exactly like you. Normal blokes who just happen to like the cock. I do know a few raving poofters - limp-wristed with that appalling gay accent and a bunch of fag-hags in tow, but the vast majority you couldn't tell they were gay if you spent 6 months drinking with them - unless you asked.

Cheers
( Legless Mister Stabby - shanks for the memory, Sun 4 Apr 2010, 15:20, closed)

'Gay accent'? Seriously? 'Gay...accent'?
I read your post and it sounds as though you mean to say 'I don't mind the gays as long as they don't try to shove it down your throat and keep themselves to themselves'.

I doubt that is what you actually meant, but that's how it comes across.
( Wicca'd Witch needs ideas for a new sig on..., Sun 4 Apr 2010, 15:32, closed)

Err -
you want some examples?

There's an affected, GAY, accent that many camp men adopt. If you haven't heard it I could probably dig up dozens of examples from YouTube. Doesn't matter where they're from originally but some gay blokes end up speaking it.

At the mid-range, it's John Inman, at the extreme end, it's John Inman with a lisp.

Ah the old "Shove it down your throat gag." never gets old.

Nope. I used to go for beers with my mates regardless of sexuality - it was whoever was up for a few pints.

Trust me. There is an affected camp accent.

Cheers
( Legless Mister Stabby - shanks for the memory, Sun 4 Apr 2010, 16:12, closed)

You're not really doing yourself any favours here.
'I don't mind gay people, some of my friends are gay and I still go the pub with them - look how tolerant I am'.

Learn the history of camp - some of it is affected (Camp itself is a uniquely brilliant weapon against intolerance as I have mentioned up there ^^), some of it isn't. It's not about sexuality per se, or indeed about gender. Some gay men have it naturally, some don't. Some straight men and women have it, some don't. John Inman didn't 'affect' a camp accent for example, it was the way he spoke. See also Frankie Howerd, Kenneth Williams (although he could exaggerate it for various character roles, his natural speaking voice was camp as), Christopher Biggins, Alan Carr (yes that is the way he speaks) etc. For women...well...Bette Midler is a prime example, as is Liza Minelli. Both are considered gay icons, because they are themselves naturally camp. For straight men you've got Lawrence LB (not an ideal example but I'm rushing here), Anton Du Beke, Johnny Depp etc.

You've made the very very common mistake of confusing camp with swish, dear. Easily done if you don't 'get' it.
( Wicca'd Witch needs ideas for a new sig on..., Sun 4 Apr 2010, 16:59, closed)

You

know nothing, about what you speak. You're so eager to label me as homophobic that nothing I say will make any difference.

Prejudiced?

Cheers
( Legless Mister Stabby - shanks for the memory, Sun 4 Apr 2010, 17:16, closed)

Really? Are you sure about that?

( Wicca'd Witch needs ideas for a new sig on..., Sun 4 Apr 2010, 17:36, closed)

And Can I Just Mention?
'I don't mind gay people, some of my friends are gay and I still go the pub with them - look how tolerant I am'.

When you quote someone, it's normal to actually quote what they actually said.

Just a tip. It'll help with you first book:

"You Too Can Be A Condescending Fuckwit"

Hope this helps

Cheers
( Legless Mister Stabby - shanks for the memory, Sun 4 Apr 2010, 17:30, closed)

You see my first reply to you, up there?
Read it again will you?
( Wicca'd Witch needs ideas for a new sig on..., Sun 4 Apr 2010, 17:37, closed)

Defensive Witch Is Defensive.
I suspect Legless is one of the last people on here who'd have a problem with gay people. If you read his first post very carefully, and without the Uptight Goggles on, all he's really saying is there's a difference between 'gay' and 'camp'. Which is rather what the OP was on about.
(Falstaff's Spiritual Successor, Mon 5 Apr 2010, 9:09, closed)

Page 6
I said the same pretty much on page 6.

It drives me fucking bonkers the over the top gay camp squeelers. Everyone presumes we are all the same. We are not and it's fucking presumptious of others that I must be heavily into musical theatre, love Judy, Barbara and Cher and want to prance about at any pride March.

I am frequently asked what bloke in the pub or bar I am in at the time, I would want to sleep with, as obviously, as a Gay Man I have to have regular cock and fancy any man I see at the time.
(Eeevil You are losers, Sun 4 Apr 2010, 16:41, closed)

That's down to heterosexual ignorance though, not the fault of other gay men.

( Wicca'd Witch needs ideas for a new sig on..., Sun 4 Apr 2010, 17:01, closed)

Oh I know
It's just frustrating that ignorance (naivety?) still exists.
(Eeevil You are losers, Sun 4 Apr 2010, 17:11, closed)

Meh..
Similar point I'm trying to get across but some people still try to take it that I'm homophobic.

A persons sexuality I couldn't give a flying fuck about.A persons PERSONALITY matters a great deal and I'd rather drag my testicles over broken glass than spend more than 5 minutes in the company of giggling, simpering girly-girls (you know, the female variety. The ones with tits, a vagina and a womb)

Camp men are the same.

Give me real men, or real women, who I can have a conversation with that doesn't revolve around shoes or some fucking celebrity and I'm generally happy.

Cheers
( Legless Mister Stabby - shanks for the memory, Sun 4 Apr 2010, 17:12, closed)

Which is the point I guessed you were trying to make, but way you said it
is way that someone who DID have a problem with someone's sexuality would. The language, the words used - they are a little on the aggressive side. I loathe the term 'fag-hag' for example, it's more often used as an insult if used in the context you did up there.

I didn't label YOU as homophobic, just the way your post comes across.
( Wicca'd Witch needs ideas for a new sig on..., Sun 4 Apr 2010, 17:42, closed)

Oh Thank You!
Thank You!

Thank You! For pointing out the error of my ways.

I will immediately amend my personality and my writing style to fit in with the guidelines you have so selflessness pointed out to me.

"in other news. Hell Freezes Over."

Cheers
( Legless Mister Stabby - shanks for the memory, Sun 4 Apr 2010, 17:49, closed)

Oh you don't need me to point out you're a wanker.
Badger's done it often enough, hasn't he?
( Wicca'd Witch needs ideas for a new sig on..., Sun 4 Apr 2010, 17:55, closed)

He's a provable bellend
Don't bother debating/ arguing with him, he's a tosspipe and a bellend. That's not opinion by the way, but historical fact.

Interesting usage of his mother tongue- "fit in with the guidelines you have so selflessness pointed out to me", whatever that means.

Cheers
(dozers, do fuck off ur a nob m8, Sun 4 Apr 2010, 19:23, closed)

Excellently put, sir.
The first out gay man I met, back the late 70s when it was pretty fucking dangerous, was a South African rugby player. If you were summing him up in one word, camp would not be it.

I asked him why he preferred blokes, being in those days a rude little bastard:

"I just do, and the way I go about it would snap a girl in half."
(all my scars face forward possesses 2.5% of a hyperalloy combat chassis, Sun 4 Apr 2010, 17:20, closed)

Well said
Okay, you're here; you're queer; we've not only gotten used to it, we don;t give a shit.

Here in the U.S., we seem to have developed a surplus of gay men in the media who need to act over the top and be put to work commenting on celebrities, fashion, celebrity fashion, awards shows....

The current reigning "queen" is Perez Hilton, who like most of the others thinks he is high camp but is at best low crap. There's a difference between camping it up with wit and being an attention whore worshipping at the idol of celebrity and feeling you're entitled to make money at it because you're gay. The only differences between Perez and the gossipy cashier at the grocer's is that he writes a blog and uses shocking hair colors like pink. Otherwise, they are both slovenly overweight, horrible dressers, of limited intelligence, ugly, loud-mouthed and uninteresting to the people they gossip about and try to "dis."

Noel Coward and Truman Capote could be camp, but they had wit. And their writing will last. People will want to read it years from now, whereas Perez's voyueristic attempts will dissipate as quickly as the interest in the "celebrities" he tries to befriend.
(ChiTown Guy Dating when 35+: sane, single, attractive - pick 2, Mon 5 Apr 2010, 0:55, closed)

I hope I haven't misjudged this, but I think that discussion may have reached the point..
where we can stop being serious and throw in some really rubbish "I'd love to come but," lines that Undercovercarrot might have used.

"..I've promised help a neighbour restore the gold edging that has flaked off his antique dinner service. In short I'll be doing a bit of rimming with a bloke down the street."

"..my friend's confectionary business has got a really large order and I've said I'll help out. I'm afraid I'll be too busy packing fudge."
(Cave Duck, Mon 5 Apr 2010, 1:12, closed)

I....
...fucking love you!
( Undercovercarrot got done for gross misconduct on..., Mon 5 Apr 2010, 2:21, closed)

You're very kind, sir.

(Cave Duck, Tue 6 Apr 2010, 17:12, closed)

"...I'm a busy solicitor and have a criminal practise that takes up most of my time"

( Wicca'd Witch needs ideas for a new sig on..., Tue 6 Apr 2010, 12:43, closed)

"..I'm having a new washing machine delivered. It's rather heavy and we can't carry it through the house so I've offerd to help the delivery man take it up the back passage."

"..I've rather foolishly allowed myself to be roped in as the driver for a group of salty sea-going types who smuggle low grade tobacco and, if there's time after they've snaffled the bounty, plan to entrap some crustaceons. So it's a weekend of taking seamen, rough shag and possibly catching crabs for me"
(Cave Duck, Tue 6 Apr 2010, 17:10, closed)

This reminds me of one of my oldest friends.

I was quite taken back when one evening in the pub he came out with the statement "I fucking hate queers" - at the time he'd been in a long term relationship with another bloke for 5 years.

His point was that not all gay blokes are camp fans of musical theatre who go out to clubs in order to get E'd up and fellate each other in the toilets, and he was pissed off with having that stereotype applied to him. If it works for you fine, but it doesn't describe all gay men, no more than being a heterosexual man means I give a shit about soccer.
(Scooby Don't, Mon 5 Apr 2010, 1:57, closed)

Kind of agreement
I get the point about the marching, I've never been inclined to join some of my friends in the whole parade and march thing.

I'm like you, in that I don't say that I'm proud to be gay specifically. I'm proud of who I am these days, and being gay is just a small part of that.

However, I do go to a few gay pride events, not for the political aspect of it, but because I like being around hundreds and hundreds of other gay people, and knowing that I am completely accepted in that environment (my family, some of my childhood friends, and a hell of a lot of people in the area where I grow up are not at all accepting of the gayers). There's not much of a gay scene where I live, so it's a good night out too.

Besides, what's not to like about hundreds of lesbians kissing in the street? ;)
(flyme, Tue 6 Apr 2010, 15:02, closed)

Clicks
This is how it goes: "Hi Spanky, my name's (insert name here). I'm gay."

Shake hands.

"Hi, I'm Spanky. I'm hetero, maybe bi-curious. Fuck knows. But I went through a phase of fucking women with more stubble than the average man. Maybe I am gay and deep in denial? No, actually no - you see I just love tits too much. And there's nothing as beautiful as a cumshot across a blonde Swedish teenage girls innocent looking face, is there?"

"WHY THE FUCK ARE YOU TELLING ME THIS?!?"

"YOU FUCKING STARTED IT! I got your name closely followed by your shagging preference! I really couldn't give a toss! Let's go and get beer and nachos and start this conversation over."

This is a conversation I had with a mate of the Mrs. not long ago. Weird. Get's a click from me because knowing both types of gayers a) the raging Queens of the Desert types (who get right on my tits trying to 'terrorise me with gayness'). And just normal blokes, Christ, I know half the fellas on the Welsh Gay Rugby Team and they're all pretty normal. Well, let's just say being gay doesn't make you special or interesting - no more so than having brown hair, blue eyes, or a love of all things Batman etc. So if you happen to be gay and think this gives you a divine right to bore everyone else silly with this, well, just fuck off.

Great post, Mr Carrot.

PS - Gay Pride is fucking shit anyway. All those FUCKING WHISTLES and glo sticks.
( SpankyHanky, Tue 6 Apr 2010, 16:51, closed)

*click*
This has caused a bit of a stir hasn't it.

I agree with lots of people, that's my nature. I would enjoy watching a gay pride parade about as much as I'd enjoy watching the goings-on on a Saturday night in your average British town centre at around midnight - i.e. not at all.

What I mean is, people are different. Some like to display their sexuality - gay or straight - for all to see, loudly and to the very edge of decency and beyond. Many more of us prefer to keep our inhibitions somewhere within the bounds of normal modesty.

Me, I'm one of the latter. What I say is live and let live but, as Undercovercarrot says: DON'T try to impose your views on me. That is disrepectful whether it applies to religion, class, sexuality or anything else.
(Che Grimsdale Best before:, Wed 7 Apr 2010, 9:27, closed)