I'm a fake
I claim to be a grammar badger yet I still don't really understand when you should use "whom". Is it To whom it may concern, or To who it may concern?

Also I am not actually a badger.
( TGB checking Off Topic is still shit at, Wed 16 Jul 2008, 10:01, 25 replies)

deffinately
to whom.

damn you my badger army dreams have been quashed, ill have to start training the flying monkeys again now, and i just know they will throw poo at me again
(pogo_it, Wed 16 Jul 2008, 10:04, closed)

To whom it may concern
"Who" is the nominative form of the pronoun (eg "The Man who Sold the World"). "Whom" covers the accusative (eg, "The person whom he dislikes"), the dative ("The person to whom he gave the present") and the ablative ("The person in whom the surgeon left the swab").
( Enzyme is powered by sunlight, Wed 16 Jul 2008, 10:06, closed)

*gets dictionary*
*looks up "ablated"*
*corrects spelling of "definitely"*

Hmm I am a little wiser. Sadly no more badger-like though!
( TGB checking Off Topic is still shit at, Wed 16 Jul 2008, 10:16, closed)

@Badger
That's what you get for five years of Latin lessons. Nominative, accusative, genitive, dative, ablative.

servus, servum, servi, servo, servo, servi, servos, servorum, servis, servis. And so on.
( Enzyme is powered by sunlight, Wed 16 Jul 2008, 10:51, closed)

TGB
You may find that 'ablated' and 'ablative' have totally different meanings...
( K2k6 has a proper job these days, Wed 16 Jul 2008, 10:52, closed)

I don't know what disappoints me more
the fact you don't know the difference between who/whom


or the fact you are not a badger


@Enzyme - 5 years?! Bloody hell, I barely lasted 5 fucking weeks of Latin if only because my prehistoric teacher retired early and removed Latin from my timetable
(bamboozled Can hear you getting fatter, Wed 16 Jul 2008, 11:04, closed)

@K2k6
Well, inasmuch as there's "ab-" (from) and "latum" (supine of "ferre", to carry), there's going to be something less than a million miles between them...
( Enzyme is powered by sunlight, Wed 16 Jul 2008, 11:24, closed)

Christ, Enzyme
I love it when you talk Latin. My morning shower just took at least five times longer than it should as I pondered that filth you just uttered.
( crackhouseceilidhband Fuck off back to Mumsnet, Wed 16 Jul 2008, 11:25, closed)

If it helps ...
Use 'whom' when you would say 'him'.

So in your example (not particularly good example to use, but you might have to re-phrase the statement), "To whom are you writing a letter?" "I am writing a letter to him".

So in this case it is whom.

A counter-example would be "Who threw the ball?" "He threw the ball" in this case it is who.

"To whom did you throw the ball?" "I threw the ball to him" ...

So if you would use HIM, use WHOM.

I hope that helps clear up your quandry without the technical jargon.
( Ghoti Fingers, Wed 16 Jul 2008, 11:32, closed)

Who is the bell tolling for?
I am simultaneously a grammar facist and a plain english facist.

See ^^ for correct usage, but frankly its ACTUAL use is to say "MEMEMEME LOOKATME, I KNOW GRAMMAR AND I'M REALLY CLEVER!!!!!".

Frankly:
1) if it's being read by someone whom it concerns, they know it.
2) if it's being read by someone whom it doesn't concern, it'll probably end up filed or binned.
3) if it's being read by someone whom it may concern, it may also not concern them (see item 2).
( prince-igor si tacuisses, philosophus mansisses, Wed 16 Jul 2008, 13:41, closed)

OK I knew the who/whom thing
but here's one I'm never sure about. Comparatives.

Which is correct?

My brother is taller than I

or

My brother is taller than me.

The logical bit of my brain says it's the former, as it means 'my brother is taller than I (am)', but the colloquial part of it says it's the latter, as 'brother' is the subject, and 'me' is the object.

So Enzyme, chickenlady et al. Definitive answer, please.
( K2k6 has a proper job these days, Wed 16 Jul 2008, 14:00, closed)

@prince-igor
So, you're saying you're two-faced? :)
(Vice Admiral Sir Charles Cockbrush KCB MBE DSO, who is finding it increasingly difficult to log into b3ta.com wants to duck your aunt and kick your puppy, Wed 16 Jul 2008, 14:06, closed)

@K2k6
It should be "My brother is taller than me", because in the sentence in question your brother is the subject and you are the object.

In the same way that Ghoti Fingers suggests thinking of other pronouns to resolve any who/whom confusion, consider the following and it should help:

"My brother is taller than him" not "my brother is taller than he"
"My brother is taller than her" not "my brother is taller than she"
"My brother is taller than them" not "my brother is taller than they"
(Vice Admiral Sir Charles Cockbrush KCB MBE DSO, who is finding it increasingly difficult to log into b3ta.com wants to duck your aunt and kick your puppy, Wed 16 Jul 2008, 14:11, closed)

Thanks Cockbrush
That makes sense. It's like how I was taught to work out the use of I and me.

Susan and I went to London.

A man approached Susan and me.

If you miss out the name of the other person it is immediately obvious.
( K2k6 has a proper job these days, Wed 16 Jul 2008, 14:16, closed)

@K2k6
Obvious to you and me, perhaps, but a lot of people, even on b3ta, would use "Me and Susan went to London" and not think anything was wrong... :(
(Vice Admiral Sir Charles Cockbrush KCB MBE DSO, who is finding it increasingly difficult to log into b3ta.com wants to duck your aunt and kick your puppy, Wed 16 Jul 2008, 14:26, closed)

Cockbrush...
You're wrong. It should be "... than I", since the sentence is a contraction of "He is taller than I am."


EDIT - Many people would say "He approached Susan and I", which is awful... and also wrong.
( Enzyme is powered by sunlight, Wed 16 Jul 2008, 15:10, closed)

^ this
me included

and I teach English
(bamboozled Can hear you getting fatter, Wed 16 Jul 2008, 15:17, closed)

So we're currently
2:1 in favour of logical over colloquial (by my brain's standards).

:)
( K2k6 has a proper job these days, Wed 16 Jul 2008, 15:30, closed)

Hmm...
"He is taller than me" is clearly valid (the "than" is preposition before an object), as is "He is taller than I am" (the "than" is now a conjunction preposition before an object), but "He is taller than I" seems like an accepted contraction rather than a perfectly formed sentence ("I" doesn't mean the same as "I am")...
(Vice Admiral Sir Charles Cockbrush KCB MBE DSO, who is finding it increasingly difficult to log into b3ta.com wants to duck your aunt and kick your puppy, Wed 16 Jul 2008, 16:50, closed)

The more I think about it...
I'm starting to question whether you can actually use "than" as a preposition in a comparative phrase. In your example, both you and your brother are being tall, so should probably both be the subject - it's not as though your brother is being tall to/on/at you.

I'm going to change my answer to "both are wrong", and advocate using "My brother is taller than I am". :)
(Vice Admiral Sir Charles Cockbrush KCB MBE DSO, who is finding it increasingly difficult to log into b3ta.com wants to duck your aunt and kick your puppy, Wed 16 Jul 2008, 17:00, closed)

But "my brother" is the subject
As it is followed by "is", third person conjugation of "be". Of course, there is some debate as to use the object pronouns or subject pronouns with "be"; classically, instead of "It is me", it used to be "It is I". Upon hearing this, I immediatally dimissed it as nonsense. However, in some phrases such as "It was him who did it", perhaps it would make more sense as "It was HE who did it", as in the clause "he/him who did it", "he/him" clearly is a subject and not an object. It could be argued that "he/him" is a subject of "It was", but in that case, we'd have to concede that "He is bigger than her is" is grammitically correct based on "He is bigger than her", which is of course nonsense.

In conclusion: someone needs to come along and sort out the English language.
(Cuthbert Annihilator, Wed 16 Jul 2008, 18:03, closed)

The Third Way!
"The man approached Susan and myself."

Sorry, I know it's a bit of a cop-out, but as someone who can become quite anally retentive about my English, I've simply found it's the quickest way to avoid tying myself in grammatical knots. Though it's probably still incorrect.
(LongJohnBaldry, Wed 16 Jul 2008, 20:07, closed)

@The Supreme Crow
NOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!

Naughty, naughty, naughty! "Myself" is a reflexive pronoun, and should only be used when you are both the subject and the object. Some people think it's a posh replacement for "I" or "me", but they are bad, bad people and can go and fuck themselves.

Although they can't fuck yourself, and you can't fuck themselves.
(Vice Admiral Sir Charles Cockbrush KCB MBE DSO, who is finding it increasingly difficult to log into b3ta.com wants to duck your aunt and kick your puppy, Wed 16 Jul 2008, 20:23, closed)

Argh, misuse of reflexive pronouns
People at work constantly say "We'll do this for yourself" and so on. It's not even limited to those sentences which have two subjects or objects (eg. "you and I do", "done to me and you") anymore. It's everywhere.
(Cuthbert Annihilator, Wed 16 Jul 2008, 23:47, closed)

Wow
I feel much more clevererer now.

As a side note it really annoys me when people say "much more", especially in the sentence "x was much more better than y".
( TGB checking Off Topic is still shit at, Thu 17 Jul 2008, 10:22, closed)