bilmey
sorry to crash the self congratulation and back slapping party, but I'm afraid Im going to have to pop those balloons (and piss in that punch bowl)

such a sneery distainful display of supreme arrogance have I rarely seen

grossly over simplified with straw man arguments within the parameters that you yourself have defined

and to then berate agnostics for 'sitting on the fence' is crude in the extreme and shows the type of arrogance worthy of the worst fundamentalist traits you say you deplore so much within the same post - how can you claim to know what process or conclusions agnostics have reached to take such a position? did you patent your mind reading device?

agnosticism relates to belief about whether the existence of a divine presence is (or can be) known , It does not "indicate intellectual barrenness" as you put it but a humility and acceptance that there is a limit to what we can ultimately 'know'


there are no certainties, certainly not in scientific process as you seem to understand it - yes, we know religion is a crock but dismmissing a thousand year old sociatal control mechanism does not disprove the existance of a divine presence - you are only disproving the narrow personal absolute God of the relgious traditions - even within the bible it is clear the vengeful god of the OT is different from the New Testament compassionate one - religion is an easy target to trash but that does not translate to trashing belief in a higher force

had you any knowledge fo eastern tradition or even quantum physics (at the cutting edge of current scientific thinking) you’d understand to even establish what constitutes 'reality' is also highly speculative

ah but reality is concensus - you argue - but how can I know for sure the existance of minds outside my own? you see the problem?

you must also understand your criteria for deciding what methods are appropriate for deciding if something is true or not

does logic counts as evidence concerning the quality of existence ? subjective experience? can logic or evidence rule in or out the existance of a divine presence? I guess you've solved the problem of the big bang then?

and let's also mention, btw, the limits of semantics in it's ability to explain these abstracts - because its obvious the problem is conceptual and teh big bang paradox by its very nature shows something operating outside these paramenters we are using to interpret reality

you can only unltimately know one truth which transcends all scientific and religious theory speculation

you are aware of being aware - this is the only truth you can truely know for certain - all other consentual reality is open to interpretation

how can i know anything exists apart from my own awareness (solid objects are only energy at different vibrational ranges and at the quantum level we have further paradoxical observations)...and we still haven't touched onto the concept of a divine presence yet

science can only and will only describe what we currently understand at present based upon it's own methods of determining and quantitfying reality - it is a process never reaching a conclusion by its very nature - merely allowing speculation based on its own modes and methods of collecting the data within the parameters it sets


you have proven nothing apart from your ability to patronise and display a self important air of supreme arrogance

my own personal view is this eastern tradition based on humility - that ultimately I can really only know my own awareness and I put alot of value in the Socrates' pragmatic argument

i.e

since we can never know either way what truth or reality or if there is a divine presence is anyway - but if believing x results in a process of optimum survival/pleasure/ethical living (not morals which as you know are comletely different to ethics)and mutual respect for the sovereign rights of my fellow man (common law principles of no harm or loss) ... then believe in x

you haven't disproved (or proven ) the existance of a divine presence(impersonal or otherwise) - what you have proven however, with remarkable clarity, is the utter contempt you have for your fellow human beings right to hold personal beliefs which differ from your own worthy of Marie Antoinette's court when the sweet trolly came round



:)

oh, and by the way, did you know Boyle and Wren formed the invisible college precisely to study the book of nature (science) and this book of knowledge (the bible) as even the person regarded as the greatest scientist who lived, Newton, knew there is an esoteric meaning to biblical text from these mystery schools - which perfectly describes the process of evolution :

Genesis (gene of Isis)

Gen.1:26 the Elohime says: "Let us make man in our image and likeness"

(Elohime) male and female they (plural - not 1 god) created him/her (adam) describes the process of mind before matter evolution of asexual vegetable matter into animal life to 'those in the know'

evolution in the bible who'd have thunk it missus! :)


this is a bigger mystery than you or I will ever know - the difference between me and you is, however, I'm humble enough to admit it and remain agnostic

EDIT: ask The Great Architect's 'higher up' friends (or your own ;) ) 'in the know' about how many great scientific minds subscribed to these 'mind before matter' mysteries - the crude religious/ scientific conflict was always meant for us 'profane', as they call us. Much like the bogus communism vs capitalism conflict - all conflicts they design to produce a 'third way'...with the science v religion hegelian dialectic their aim is Gaia, green earth worship, Gorbachev talks about which we now see emerging and mention is made of in the elitist think tank known as 'The CLub Of Romes' writings
(The Goat www.cuttingthroughthematrix.com, Thu 26 Mar 2009, 13:14, 3 replies)

*skim reads*
*yawns*
*spots the phrase "all other consentual reality is open to interpretation"*
*gets measure of objection*
*realises that life is much, much, much too short*


You really ought to come to Riverghost's bash, you know.
:)
( Enzyme is powered by sunlight, Thu 26 Mar 2009, 14:37, closed)

awww diddums
did I spoil your 'show piece' post - I saw you mention that you're editing it because you'll know it'll appear at the top of your profile page (which kind of assumes you expect alot of 'I like this clicks' which even for you shows a new level of arrogance)

couldn't resist pissing all over your arrogant egotistical inconsistencies and reasoning

it's the least I could do - you've been trolling every post I've done for the past year, someone has to point out how totally up yourself you've become

and like that slow line at the cheese counter - it seems, today, my number had come up

:)

p.s. it seems unlikely that I will ever be at a b3ta bash - not only beacuse of my lifestyle but by the fact I need an excel spreadsheet these days to keep track of all the B3tans that I've come close to arranging boxing matches with - unless you could arrange a queueing system so I could deal with them individually? maybe that ticket roll at the cheese counter
(The Goat www.cuttingthroughthematrix.com, Thu 26 Mar 2009, 14:43, closed)

Well, you mentioned the cheese counter...
... so I suggest one of those ticket things that you get at Tesco. First come, first served - I'm useless with spreadsheets.

Incidentally - editing for clarity and being up-front about it is one thing. Editing posts to make objectors look silly is quite another, and I've not done that.



Do I take it that you didn't click?
:)
( Enzyme is powered by sunlight, Thu 26 Mar 2009, 15:01, closed)

I've already
had this out with Aththegeordie a while back who couldn't back up the allegation when probed
www.b3ta.com/search/answers?q=mouse+fart

do you really want to get into this?

I have never post edited to do this

I have however post edited for clarity, correct bad spelling and grammar and to expand a point but NEVER to make objectors look silly - you hardley need much help on that score ;)

by the way what defines how someone thinks of as making them look silly is kind of a vague subjective term is it not for a pedant like you
(The Goat www.cuttingthroughthematrix.com, Thu 26 Mar 2009, 15:03, closed)

It's the expanding a point, really...
... and the way that it shades into ad hoc and ex post facto modification.

Short of taking a screen-grab every time someone replies to you, I can't prove anything. You know this. However, we both know what I mean.

I do rather aim at... well, I was going to say pedanty, but I don't think that that's it. Cold rigour, perhaps. I value good arguments - but little else. And where there is sloppy argument, or none at all, I do get a little twitchy.

Righty-ho. I've a seminar soon, so doubt I'll be able to reply before the question closes.

It's a shame about the bash, by the way. I really am a shameful wimp, so you'd flatten me. Indeed - that's why I rely on words. It's the only way I can flatten people back. I think arguing the toss over a pint with you'd be fun!
( Enzyme is powered by sunlight, Thu 26 Mar 2009, 15:27, closed)

Well
this is the best post I've read this week by a country mile!

Cheers Goat -

If I could click a million times I would!
( SpankyHanky, Thu 26 Mar 2009, 15:13, closed)

;)
what our party lacks in numbers it makes up for in quality of guests
(The Goat www.cuttingthroughthematrix.com, Thu 26 Mar 2009, 15:19, closed)

..
"you have proven nothing apart from your ability to patronise and display a self important air of supreme arrogance"


...


"Mr. Pot, Mr. Kettle. Mr Kettle, Mr. Pot"

Right, now that the introductions are out of the way...

come on, let's keep it civil fellas :)
Could we get you both in the boardroom with Sir Alan?
That'd be one hell of a boardroom battle
( The Great Architect is still waiting for his account to be deleted on, Thu 26 Mar 2009, 17:00, closed)