I'm a cyclist
In central London. Every day for just under five years now.

I quite often jump red lights as quite frankly that's sometimes the safest thing to do. If I'm not likely to be in any danger, I sit and wait like everyone else at the lights.

I have as much right to be on the road as anyone else, and I also have the right not to be killed by some twat who values getting home 2 minutes quicker over my life.

The highest fatalities for cyclists are amongst women who are more likely than men to follow the rules of the road. The classic "get squished by lorry at lights doing a left turn" thing.

I most often jump the light just to put as much distance between myself and the erratic lane hogging cunts behind who've spent the last 2 miles attempting to crush me into the barrier at the side of the road.

Fuck the red light.
( rofl harris, Mon 26 Jul 2010, 15:42, 2 replies)

I see.
So the rules only apply to you as and when you decide to see fit.

And how about the jumping of the red lights putting others in danger - such as pedestrians?

You have the right to be on the road only if you accept the responsibilty of following the rules of the road, which means don't jump red lights. At all.

Fuck your right to endanger me. If an angry pedestrian sticks a brolly through your spokes, I take it you won't be surprised. Or, indeed, offended. You'll be totally understanding that they were just being defensive.
( Je suis un vagabond is an unfunny, up your own arse middle class knob, Mon 26 Jul 2010, 16:46, closed)

No
"So the rules only apply to you as and when you decide to see fit."

Yes

"And how about the jumping of the red lights putting others in danger - such as pedestrians?"

Absolutely not

"You have the right to be on the road only if you accept the responsibility of following the rules of the road, which means don't jump red lights. At all"

The rules of the road, combined with traffic, and combined with the temperament and behaviour of other road users (including cyclists) often results in very dangerous situations for those not with the luxury of being sat in a 1-ton metal box on wheels. So no.

My point is that the rules of the road often put cyclists in danger, and quite serious danger. I'm talking actual death here.

As long as you put nobody else in danger, the rules can and should be broken to ensure your own safety.

/edit: sorry edited it while you were responding. Not changed the sentiment though
( rofl harris, Mon 26 Jul 2010, 16:51, closed)

Hahahaha
And cyclists breaking the rules put pedestrians in danger, and quite serious danger.

Say you're an average bloke (I'm sure you're delightfully above average in every single, charming way, but I'm being kindly conservative as you'll see). You're say 5'10, and weigh between 9 and 10 stone. Jumping lights you'll be doing 15-25mph. You'll hit me with the force of a baby elephant.

Now, I'm a robust chap, but I think even I would be slightly peturbed by such a shock.

But absolutely fuck only knows what you'd do to a child that ran out from behind a parked car.
( Je suis un vagabond is an unfunny, up your own arse middle class knob, Mon 26 Jul 2010, 16:59, closed)

Yep
I am 5'10 correct, weight's a bit off (you were very generous.. upward of 12) - yes I'd probably cause some damage to a pedestrian.

Every seen somebody on a bike having been squished by a car in traffic?

I've seen two. The first about two years ago - physically looked fine, but dead on impact. The second - a girl in her mid twenties staring at her dismembered leg and screaming after having been dragged against railings by a goods lorry (yes turning left from a junction).
( rofl harris, Mon 26 Jul 2010, 17:05, closed)

I don't see how that justifies you puttting others at danger from you.

( Je suis un vagabond is an unfunny, up your own arse middle class knob, Mon 26 Jul 2010, 17:06, closed)

Because
I see any potential damage caused to others to be less harmful than the potential damage caused to me. You might see this as selfish, but it's self-preservation, and I challenge you to do a daily commute on a bike in any major city without breaking one of the "rules".

Anyway. I'd never whizz through at 25mpg. I proceed with caution.
( rofl harris, Mon 26 Jul 2010, 17:13, closed)

Cool. So you don't mind me shooting at cyclists who jump red lights
And if I wing you, you'll understand because it was just self-preservation.

Oh, and while I'm at it, punching random grannies in the face in case they're martial arts-trained suicide bombers.

Pfft. "Fuck you I'm alright let them die I'm worth more than other people".

And yet you seem to think it's not OK for car drivers to hold such an attitude.

Brolly through the spokes time, I'm sure you'll agree.
( Je suis un vagabond is an unfunny, up your own arse middle class knob, Mon 26 Jul 2010, 17:17, closed)

I half expected you to invoke Godwin there

( rofl harris, Mon 26 Jul 2010, 17:25, closed)

Indeed - it does seem that logic isn't your strongest suite.

( Je suis un vagabond is an unfunny, up your own arse middle class knob, Mon 26 Jul 2010, 17:29, closed)

"Oh, and while I'm at it, punching random grannies in the face in case they're martial arts-trained suicide bombers."
And you're somehow claiming the above as analogous to jumping a red light.
( rofl harris, Mon 26 Jul 2010, 17:37, closed)

This is also turning into a bit of a row
So let's agree to disagree.

edit: hehe saw your deleted post there. Concede? Never! Muhahaha. Now I'm off to run over babies and punch grannies in the face from my honda-bmx-ninja-bikeamathing
( rofl harris, Mon 26 Jul 2010, 17:37, closed)

No - I'm taking your logic of self-preservation and the law only applying to me as and when I see fit to it's logical conclusion
IE - I can do what I like, but other people should do as they're told.

Your position is one of hypocrisy - on the one hand you complain that car drivers endanger cyclists, but on the other you take that as justification to endanger pedestrians and feel no need to apologise.

So one rule for you, another for everyone else.

I don't agree with that position.
( Je suis un vagabond is an unfunny, up your own arse middle class knob, Mon 26 Jul 2010, 17:44, closed)

Nope, that's not my viewpoint
Everyone should be able to break a law that endangers them, as long as it doesn't endanger others.

/edit ... and if it does endanger others, that it endangers them LESS than it would you by not breaking that law. E.g. a quick whizz over the lights with nothing coming (proceeding with caution), versus a chance (however small) of getting killed.
( rofl harris, Mon 26 Jul 2010, 17:46, closed)

Right, OK.
So if I own a car it's OK for me to endanger cyclists if I feel endangered by trucks.
( Je suis un vagabond is an unfunny, up your own arse middle class knob, Mon 26 Jul 2010, 17:48, closed)

Nope
Read what I typed:

"Everyone should be able to break a law that endangers them, as long as it doesn't endanger others."

If there's no cyclist there, then by all means take evasive (or even pre-emptive) action.

"And if it does endanger others, that it endangers them LESS than it would you by not breaking that law."

If there's a cyclist there, killing the cyclist to preserve yourself is never acceptable.

/edit: and now I do have to go home. Carefully. On my brompton.
( rofl harris, Mon 26 Jul 2010, 17:50, closed)

Hahaha
Thanks for playing.
( Je suis un vagabond is an unfunny, up your own arse middle class knob, Mon 26 Jul 2010, 17:54, closed)

absolute balls.
i cycle 10 miles each way through London every morning and evening and don't feel that my life is ever threatened at a red. there are generalyl lovely great boxes at the lights, cars move fairly slowly or are more usually stopped (what with it being a fucking red light) and i'm not an unobservant fucktard.
(Alphabet Soap boshboshboshbosh, Wed 28 Jul 2010, 15:32, closed)

Bollocks. Utter horseshit.
Don't want to get hit by a lorry turning left? Get in front of it at the lights. You don't have to jump them as well.
Worried about being seen? By all means ride aggressively, not defensively. You can do that without breaking the law. I managed for about 7 years in London.
You run lights because it's quicker. Don't dress it up as some glorious defensive maneouvre. It's idiots like you that gave the rest of us a bad name, and contribute to driver's anti-cyclist attitudes, and therefore ultimately to increasing the risk to you and all other cyclists.

The problem with your argument is that you are using someone else's bad behaviour to justify your own. Which, at best, is shockingly flawed, because your bad behaviour in no way actually protects you or makes your cycling safer.

You only have any fucking right to be on the road if you obey ALL the rules. You can't pick and choose. Or you lose what right you had to be there in the first place, plus you lose any right to criticise car drivers bad behaviour because of the shear hypocrisy of the whole thing.
( the mighty badger Aphrodite, on a bar stool, by your side, Mon 26 Jul 2010, 18:26, closed)

I concur.
I hate driving the wagon in London, exactly because of the undertaking bikes on left turns.

I try and block them for their own safety, but there's always one who thinks that he should be in front, and he does it by dragging the bike over the railing and gesturing angrily. Well, fuck you too, asshole.

There's a few transport managers who are sick of it too, and they fit fisheye cams to the nearside facing both ways, and a central mounted forward one for the swoop and squat merchants. You get yourself killed by one of those boys, and their lawyers WILL sue your estate for causing the driver PTSD.
(all my scars face forward possesses 2.5% of a hyperalloy combat chassis, Mon 26 Jul 2010, 19:25, closed)

Nice one
Suing the newly-orphaned kids. It's enough to give you a nice warm glow inside.
( evil_andy Stick stick stick stick sticky sticky stick stick, Mon 26 Jul 2010, 23:10, closed)

I concur
I am a law-abiding cyclist and I probably get more wound up by self-righteous cyclists jumping lights than the average car driver, just because of the name it gives people like me.

I understand why car drivers hate cyclists every time I go to London. The average cyclist there is angry and overly aggressive. It annoys and endangers pedestrians, and it winds up car drivers. Yes red lights are annoying, but they are there as much for your safety as a cyclist as that of pedestrians and car drivers.

I have to confess that out here in deepest darkest Dorset, I have been known to occasionally run a red light. This is only on those with motion sensors that have clearly failed to sense my presence. There is no choice there other than waiting for a few hours until something bigger shows up!! If there is not another living soul around and the light won't change, I will eventually ride through, but I will always stop first.
( more balanced than jeremy beadle It wasn't me..., Mon 26 Jul 2010, 22:44, closed)

Here here
Totally agree.

If people are regularly getting themselves into dangerous positions then they need to take a good hard look at what's wrong with their riding. Getting to the front of the queue isn't a human right; decent road sense and integrating yourself sensibly with the general flow of traffic avoids the vast majority of dangerous situations before they happen.

Too often, the 'safety' argument is just a figleaf covering either poor riding skills, or a desire to exempt oneself from the rules of the road.

Like you, I managed for years (16 miles a day, Tottenham to Victoria and back) without skipping the lights, and also without getting myself into dangerous positions.
(Fahrenheit, Tue 27 Jul 2010, 0:13, closed)

pushing in front
Yep when i see a bike riding tosser jumping onto the pavement to get to the front of a queue of traffic only for them then to hold up said queue while they wobble erratically away really boils my piss
(andythepieman Is surfing the waves of indifference on, Tue 27 Jul 2010, 17:19, closed)