Childhood lost - More pondering
Partly inspired by DG's recent post...

When I was a kid I had a very over-protective mother, yet I could roam where I pleased pretty much. This was before mobile phones, before the CCTV culture that dominates society today and before the Health & Safety stazi turned exploring one's surroundings into a very scary and dangerous thing indeed.

If I wanted adventure, I hopped onto my BMX and explored places. Or I used my imagination and built things.

Nowadays, parents are afraid to let their kids roam more than 300 yards from their house and a mobile phone as an absolute must in case their child is abducted by the legions of peadophiles which lurk around every corner or behind every tree.

Instead of using their imagination, kids can watch videos of beheadings and scat porn. Or they can see high definition violence on their PS3 consoles that negate the need for the human mind to colour in between the sketch lines.

I feel so very sorry for kids today I really do.
(Bicycle Repairman "you're also a bit of a wanker", Thu 24 Apr 2008, 11:21, 28 replies)

...
"for the human mind to colour in between the sketch lines"

My mother wouldn't let me colour-in. She said it stifled creativity if children were forced to stay within the lines. Really.
( crackhouseceilidhband Fuck off back to Mumsnet, Thu 24 Apr 2008, 11:22, closed)

Why don't you.
Turn off your tv set, go outside and do something less boring instead?

like play football for 10 hours a day, 7 days a week for 10 years and then wonder why your kneecaps are fuckadoodledoo'd!
(Halfy By light alone, Thu 24 Apr 2008, 11:29, closed)

PJM
Agree (well, I would wouldn't I?).

Kind of on-topic, Sweary junior has a mate who's mum and dad have been split up for a while. He lives with his mum, and domestic life seems to consist of TV dinners, DVDs, MSN and games consoles.

He stays with his dad at the weekends, whose philosophy is 'I've got sod all money with which to lavish material gifts, so instead we'll go camping / fishing / play football' etc.

I'd much rather have a parent that could be arsed to actually spend time with me and do stuff than plonk me in front of a screen and then fuck off to the pub...
( Davros' Granddad a voice of calm reason in a world of spastics., Thu 24 Apr 2008, 11:46, closed)

It would be interesting to see
if a reality check would help young offenders.

none of this prison or asbo malarkey, nope, its off to a camp in some third world country with basic sanitation and materials, to work on farms, help dig irrigation trenches etc etc etc.

i would be willing to bet the vast majority would be humbled into realising how petty an existance they lead and do something with themselves afterwards.
(Halfy By light alone, Thu 24 Apr 2008, 11:52, closed)

Spot on DG
It's very true. I'm partly of the opinion that too many people these days are guilty of lazy parenting.

With more and more legislation (ie primary school teachers must praise a child 5 times more often than they chastise them) parents are scared of using discipline, in short we're breeding an entire generation of "Little Princes/ses".

It's far easier to give in to kids than get scowled at in the street for saying a firm "No!".
(Bicycle Repairman "you're also a bit of a wanker", Thu 24 Apr 2008, 11:53, closed)

A spartan upbringing.
In my day we had to forrage in the woods for porn (scat or otherwise) and build well-concealed and fortified hideaways in which to house and consult our precious publications.

Personally, I am in no doubt that our regular battles with rival gangs and marauding peadophiles along with the logistical demands involved in the average youthful fwap made me the man of iron I am today.
(infantile disorder, Thu 24 Apr 2008, 11:54, closed)

I dunno
I dunno about where you guys are from, but here in Ireland there was a huge level of freedom but also discipline.

Now days I will be out for beers on a Saturday night and at 10 or 11pm when going from pub to pub I often see hoards of 13 or 14 year olds acting the maggot on the streets.

I don't seem to remember many people getting away with that when I was a kid.
(oeb, Thu 24 Apr 2008, 11:55, closed)

^oh dear lord, yes!
Fear the Irish Mammy!
( crackhouseceilidhband Fuck off back to Mumsnet, Thu 24 Apr 2008, 11:57, closed)

It was the same here.
There was discipline, you had security in knowing where the boundries were.

Nowadays kids can do what the fuck they like, safe in the knowledge that the parents don't care and the Police are too cowed by paperwork and Political Correctness to do anything.
(Bicycle Repairman "you're also a bit of a wanker", Thu 24 Apr 2008, 11:59, closed)

It's the disipline is gone to crap
If I did something out of the way, not only was there the mental berating you would get (and chcb will agree that Irish mothers are the best in the world at making you feel like the biggest most worthless piece of crap in the world for stealing that 20p or hitting that kid down the street) but I know mine, and a lot of my friends were in the situation where their old man would give them a clatter. Nothing serious, a slap across the back of the legs or a bit of a clout behind the ear.

That's not child abuse, that's disipline. If I had been confined to a 'naughty step' I would have probably set fire to it (I was that kinda kid).

By punishing the parents for punishing their kids you make them fear it.

Caning was illegal in Ireland by the time I got to school, I still got caned by the principle in primary school though. When I ran home whining to my parents they told me that I probably deserved it and I needed to learn to accept the consequences of my actions. This is an important lesson that may not have been learned to the same extent otherwise.

When I was in my late teens one of the best guards (cops) around here moved on. If he found you acting the maggot (For example fighting or drink driving) him and the other guards would give you a hiding. Works a hell of a lot better than a 200 euro fine or a driving ban.

I remember one specific incident when a guy I know was 'Drunk and Disorderly', that's a crime that results in nothing really other than a fine and a warning, which does not stop people getting pissed and making a muppet of themselves a week later. So what this guard did is stuck him in the back of the paddy wagon, drove 15 odd miles away into the country, took his shoes and his wallet and told him to get the fuck out of the van and collect them from the station in the morning.

That man never caused trouble when drunk again. But then again a 15 mile walk with no shoes tends to leave a lasting memory.
(oeb, Thu 24 Apr 2008, 12:12, closed)

Aaah, consequences
I remember them well.

Bring them back, I say.

On a serious note, yes I agree - I wasn't badly behaved really, but on the occassions I was, was 'disciplined' (read: battered by my mother). It hasn't rendered me some psychotic, mal-adjusted neanderthal as a result. Although it has partly informed my decsion not to be a parent, among other reasons (selfishness, lack of paternal instinct and the fact that I just don't find babies particularly appealing or interesting). I have a very long patience threshold in most cases, but can be quite volatile when tipped over the edge - I wouldn't want to inflict that on a child.
( Davros' Granddad a voice of calm reason in a world of spastics., Thu 24 Apr 2008, 12:16, closed)

It won't happen unfortunately...
I can feel this post turning into another anti-leftist rant already, but here in the UK at least, we have a government so obssessed with "making the country better" that they're measuring every conceivable facet of modern life and issuing performance targets in a manner not seen since the last Stalinist "Five Year Plan".

I kid you not, an accepted government gauge for the contentment of a local community is to assess and measure the amount of birdsong each person can hear.

I wish I were joking, but billions of pounds of taxpayers money has been spent on thinktanks to come up with this stuff. And when Tony/Gordon stands up and says that "Britain is better!" it's because he has in his hand statistics which prove that these measurements of the human conditon have improved thanks to targets and legislation. A self-fulfilling prophecy akin to the Emperor's new clothes.

They geniunely believe that we're happier nearer green spaces or listening to larks than we would be if petrol and food were cheaper. The mind actually boggles.

On the flipside, we have rampant consumerism with co-ordinated marketing designed to make our little darlings put unreasonable pressure on adults to buy them tat.
(Bicycle Repairman "you're also a bit of a wanker", Thu 24 Apr 2008, 12:25, closed)

The Irish Upbringing
Sounds very much like the Scottish one.

Junior may well be a hyperactive git, but he knows the boundaries (and pretends to be deaf when he reaches them).

He does get the occasional smack on the bum (after warnings), the old naughty step (improved when you nail them to it), or his toys taken off him for a day up to a week. Or the (rationed) TV gets switched off.

He seems to be getting the idea that he won't get what he wants every time he chucks a stroppy, and will be rewarded for good behaviour. Bit like training puppies, really.

(Is that a knock at the door I hear? - that'll be Social Services, then)
(osok Rebel without a clue, Thu 24 Apr 2008, 12:28, closed)

There's more
An organisation (that I used to work for) called Natural England wants everyone in England (the rest of the UK can fuck off as NE doesn't have a remit for them) to be no more than 300 metres away from a public green space.

For fuck's sake. I'm glad I no longer work there, the bunch of loony tree-hugging knackers.
( Davros' Granddad a voice of calm reason in a world of spastics., Thu 24 Apr 2008, 12:30, closed)

Well said Osok
Society these days can't distinguish between puppies... The attitude seems to be that what might work on puppy x, works on puppy y.
(Bicycle Repairman "you're also a bit of a wanker", Thu 24 Apr 2008, 12:31, closed)

I agree with this.
I love my PS2 and PS3 like a man loves God, but I'm glad that I didn't have any videogames until I was 12. I grew up reading and drawing and making things instead. My brother, on the other hand, is 7 years younger than I, so he had access to videogames from the age of 5. He's a lazy workshy fop and gets bored with anything that doesn't yield instant results.

I don't see anything wrong with giving a child a mobile to use as an emergency tool, though. (Provided it's a no-frills phone to be used only in emergencies, and not a bling one with polyphonic ringtones and shit.) What if you were out BMXing in the woods, fell and broke a leg and were out of earshot of anyone who could help?
( Bob Todd whee, Thu 24 Apr 2008, 12:36, closed)

Now, I'm not all that old..
but I remember being punished for things, with a smack on the bottom or legs. And it worked. Simply put, if I did something wrong, and was smacked for it, I didn't do it again.

I was also beaten when my dad was in a bad mood, or drunk, or when he was pissed off because he didn't have drug money.

Obviously, I agree whole-heartedly with anything that cracks down on the latter, but current legislation does take it too far, and outlaws the former, which I don't believe is good. There are too many little princes/ses, and no way to teach them the ways of society, because they know full well that parents, teachers, the police and other authority figures are actually powerless, or criminals.

I'd love to see a return to the "reasonable chastisement" clause in legislation on this, because it's perfect. Sure, smack your kid when they're bad, but don't be unreasonable.

And...... yeah.. that's where I stand on the issue.
( Thinker, Thu 24 Apr 2008, 12:41, closed)

Videogames?
Sod the consoles, get a Linux machine. Yes, you can get games for them, but it'll take the sprogs a damn site longer to work out how to make 'em work.

It's almost as if the game comes as a reward for having the savoir faire to learn how to make it run, and yes, I realise I'm starting to sound like a dog trainer.
(LongJohnBaldry, Thu 24 Apr 2008, 12:48, closed)

My two pence
I wasn't smacked as a child, my dad once smacked my sister and was probably more upset afterwards than she was. I know it sounds horrendously lefty and will no doubt lead to a flaming, but there is just no need to smack a child to prove your point. That said, I certainly don't think it should be banned.

@Thinker. there is nothing illegal about smacking your children at the moment, and currently no plans to outlaw it as far as i'm aware. But your post throws up the classic argument, some parents may well just smack the back of a childs legs saying thats reasonable, some people think regular beatings with a slipper are reasonable. Where do you draw the line between chastise and child abuse. I don't claim to have an answer.
(Bazongaloid, Thu 24 Apr 2008, 12:49, closed)

Discipline
It depends on the child. My two neices although sisters are like chalk and cheese. One you can reason with, the other you can't. Trying to apply the same rule to both is like expecting the same spare wheel to fit a Mini and a Scania.
(Bicycle Repairman "you're also a bit of a wanker", Thu 24 Apr 2008, 12:54, closed)

al,
Ah, I seem to recall the debate when it was up before the Commons not too long ago. I thought it'd passed, but the NSPCC confirm that reasonable chastisement is still a valid defence. Though, obviously, they're not happy about it.

If that's the case, why do so few parents today actually administer reasonable punishment?
( Thinker, Thu 24 Apr 2008, 12:56, closed)

@ thinker
well, just because you can punish by smacking doesn't mean you should. It really isn't the best method. As I said, I don't think it should be banned, sometimes it really is necessary to use a little force to drive a point home (i'm not advocating putting nails into your kids btw) but other methods often work better over the long term.

I think the argument is, if you have to resort to smacking your kids, what about when they realise that, it doesn't really hurt, so what difference does it make, then you have to hit them harder, and so on.
(Bazongaloid, Thu 24 Apr 2008, 13:02, closed)

Hmm Yes
There seems to be three types.

1. Coo 'Jocast, don't, Angel' in an ineffective manner.

2. Beat the living crap out of 'em while screaming 'Nokia you fahking cahnt'

3. Reasonable. The minority.
(osok Rebel without a clue, Thu 24 Apr 2008, 13:02, closed)

@Thinker
true, I agree with that. My argument would be that with better child rearing from the start Jocasta wouldn't be such a precocious little shit and Nokia would have hopes and aspirations beyond marrying a footballer.
(Bazongaloid, Thu 24 Apr 2008, 13:08, closed)

Of course, al,
I think that, if administered once or twice, then the child won't need hitting harder and more in future. But the knowledge that a smack is a potential outcome should be enough to make them think twice before misbehaving.

It's much more effective than any "naughty step". As soon as the child realises that they can just get off the step, the parents' authority will evaporate.
( Thinker, Thu 24 Apr 2008, 13:12, closed)

Super Nanny has a lot to answer for
Naughty Step. Sheesh. What's wrong with the traditional locked dark cupboard filled with spiders and SNAKES?

Adenoidal She-Git.
(osok Rebel without a clue, Thu 24 Apr 2008, 13:22, closed)

osok
My kid is staying over at the weekend, and thanks to your suggestion I am now going to the pet shop after work to buy a load of snakes.
(oeb, Thu 24 Apr 2008, 13:41, closed)

Non-venomous, please. Otherwise it'd be silly
Super-Nanny trumped by Bastard-Daddy! Result...
(osok Rebel without a clue, Thu 24 Apr 2008, 13:44, closed)