Oh fuck off.
Shafting people? Oh', yeah', 'cus if wasn't for that pesky buisnessman doing the work and taking the risks that you don't do, and getting rewarded for it.... you would have done that yourself and been in their shoes.

Forget about the millions they bring to the economy that pays for hospitals, schools, police, etc.
Forget about the 100s of 1000s that have employment because of the success of those buisness men.
Forget the huge amounts of charity that gets donated through buisness.

One attitude I fucking hate is the "They all screw over the little guy", it's that kind of OH WOE IS MEism that really gets me. They're the ones who mortgaged everything they got to get where they are, they're the ones who are up all night worrying about having to sack people the next day.
( G/PP 💩💩💩💩💩&#128, Thu 6 Oct 2011, 13:05, 2 replies, latest was 14 years ago)

Well put.
It is incredibly stressful (and also incredibly rewarding at times) establishing and growing a business.
( Fucking hell Jeff I am not a robot, Thu 6 Oct 2011, 13:07, Reply)

And I never said doing it was a bad thing
Nor does it make you a saint, we all do stressful stuff, very rarely does it gain us respect, or for that matter money.

Steve Jobs did hard things, some of them I probably couldn't have done had I wanted to, some of them I'd not have chosen to do if I could. He did very well out of it, arguably the world did well out of it too.

I would, however argue that the world doing well out of it was not his primary motivation, or even his secondary one. Thus he was not morally a better person for it.

I have more respect for people who do hard thankless jobs for little pay, with the motivation of helping others.
( CQ Knows the truth, all of it., Thu 6 Oct 2011, 13:19, Reply)

I also have respect for people who do hard thankless jobs for little pay, with the motivation of helping others.

I also have respect for those who take risks (remortgage, borrow etc.) to get something going and importantly create employment for other people. Yes I have made money from having my own business - not as much as when I worked for large corporates - but the greatest satisfaction comes from adding value by what you do, having more lifestyle flexibility than you get working for someone else and for me having created employment for people.
( Fucking hell Jeff I am not a robot, Thu 6 Oct 2011, 13:23, Reply)

Good for you, glad it makes you happy.
And maybe it's because I don't know you personally, but I don't see why it should change how much I like you.

That may be part of it actually, the whole not knowing thing, oh well, not like we're going to come to some definitive agreement, is it?
( CQ Knows the truth, all of it., Thu 6 Oct 2011, 13:28, Reply)

I'm not saying you should like me (you probably wouldn't - most people don't), but I think you should perhaps have a little more respect for those who have taken risks and created value.
( Fucking hell Jeff I am not a robot, Thu 6 Oct 2011, 13:30, Reply)

To break it down:
Risk taking: depends on the risk and the motivation. Risk taking per se is not a good or bad thing.

Created value: We probably disagree on the meaning of this term. I'd say creating value would involve taking raw materials and adding your work and skill to make them more valuable. I'm not saying bussnies men/starters/owners do not do this, just that people seem to imbue their doing it with some magical significance that makes it more important than what, say, a carpenter does.
( CQ Knows the truth, all of it., Thu 6 Oct 2011, 13:36, Reply)

Oh gonz!
*canned laughter*
( CQ Knows the truth, all of it., Thu 6 Oct 2011, 13:12, Reply)

It's true though, I hear all the time "I hate working for my boss, him making all that money off me, I should be working for myself"
But they don't want to risk and invest money into equipment, they don't want to go out and get clients, they don't want to do accounts. They just see that they're working for X and hour and that's getting billed out at 3 times that, and figure they deserve the full 3 times.

I hate the attitude that all buisness men are evil, screwing people over, and it's normally said by bitter people who wishes they had the guts and drive to go for it themselves.
( G/PP 💩💩💩💩💩&#128, Thu 6 Oct 2011, 13:17, Reply)

You're getting some kind of treat for this.

( thealternativefact, Thu 6 Oct 2011, 13:20, Reply)

When you've heard it from me Gonz, you can tar me with that brush.
My job is a bit dull, but I'm happy enough with it and choose to keep it because it pays quite well and is generally non-stressful. anything else I say is either an exception to that rule or exaggerated for comic effect.

I don't think all business men are evil, but I do think it takes a degree of ruthlessness to be successful in that field, which I do not possess and do not wish to posess, which is why it's something I've never pursued. I like and admire my bosses for what it's worth, but mostly because they treat their staff very well. I think the big house in Islington, the kids in private schools and the impending retirement at an early age are perfectly good (and well deserved) rewards for the work they have done.
( CQ Knows the truth, all of it., Thu 6 Oct 2011, 13:24, Reply)

Determination rather than Ruthlessness.... you don't have to shit over other people to get to the top, you just have to be the good at what you do.
So there you go, your own boss is an example of a buisnessman who isn't 'shafting people', but you said most of them. It's not even close to 'most of them'.
( G/PP 💩💩💩💩💩&#128, Thu 6 Oct 2011, 13:32, Reply)

One of the reasons I like my bosses iis that that are, in my limited experience, exceptional.
And I did mean ruthlessness.

I think at this point we'd have to get into a discussion of the merits of capitalism.

On which, I fear we are destined not to agree, so I'd suggest we agree to disagree on this point Gonz.
( CQ Knows the truth, all of it., Thu 6 Oct 2011, 13:39, Reply)

I know you meant ruthlessness, you are wrong, ruthlessness implies you'd throw a granny down the stairs as you climb up them. Some people can side step the granny on the way up.
It takes drive and determination to become succesfull at anything at all, including buisness.
( G/PP 💩💩💩💩💩&#128, Thu 6 Oct 2011, 13:48, Reply)

I think at this point we'd have to get into a discussion of the merits of capitalism.
On which, I fear we are destined not to agree, so I'd suggest we agree to disagree on this point Gonz.
( CQ Knows the truth, all of it., Thu 6 Oct 2011, 13:59, Reply)

Yeah', I guess so.
I can see that being the best at something can be viewed differntly if you consider that 'something' with negative conulatations.
( G/PP 💩💩💩💩💩&#128, Thu 6 Oct 2011, 14:11, Reply)

Tell you what, lets have a chat about it over a pint some time
Probably more fun.
( CQ Knows the truth, all of it., Thu 6 Oct 2011, 14:21, Reply)