The point is
you will be coming to the UK and using all the systems, such as health and transport that were paid for by UK taxpayers. Now if you are going to stay here and contribute to teh country by paying your taxes and national insurance then that's all well and good.

But how do you know in advance who is going to actually do that? Well, the simplest way is simply to say, okay, if you have skills which we are lacking then come to our country and you'll be sure of getting a job, or even better, come with a job offer already secured and we know you aren't going to just sit around sponging.

Yes, each case should be considered on it's merits, but look at this logically, there are probably hundreds of thousands of people wanting to come to the UK because, despite how much we like to moan, we have it pretty fucking good here compared to a lot of the world.

So should we have a system where every single person has to phone up an immigration person and go through point by point why they should be allowed into the country?

That would immediately lead to a huge backlog and nobody entering the country. So they have a system where you get considered on the skills you have.

If you are a student, or you want to come over and see the UK for a bit and do some casual work to pay your way then there are visas for those situations. But why should just anybody be able to come over, even if they are skilled and qualified, and take the place of someone born in this country who is equally skilled and qualified.

And I realise that may come across as horrifically right wing, but there is a logic there which needs to be discussed without people shouting "RACIST" and then "FORRINS GO HOME" which is what it usually descends into.

And VC, Oz is much harder to get into than the UK. You can get a two year working holiday visa for Europe with very little trouble, we can only get a one year visa, and the restrictions on working are more severe.
(Bazongaloid, Fri 8 May 2009, 14:56, 3 replies, latest was 16 years ago)

I understand that
I'm more then willing to pay taxes because in all honesty I'm moving there to become a citizen eventually - not because I want to sponge. I've been looking up the relevent paper work to get tax file numbers, legitimate jobs, bank accounts all that stuff.

I agree australia is getting harder to get into - and it's only because we have stupid stupid twunts in office trying to keep out people from South East Asia - but it's affecting everywhere else too.
(Poppet some assembly required., Fri 8 May 2009, 15:00, Reply)

That's all well and good
and I'm sure you're honest in your intention, but not everyone is, and why should you come to the UK and take advantage of money from taxpayers with no guarantee that you will contribute anything back?

I know this sounds really harsh, but would you let a stranger eat free in your restaurant just because he said he is going to come back in a month and give everyone who works there a thousand bucks?
(Bazongaloid, Fri 8 May 2009, 15:03, Reply)

hey hey where did I say
that I was going to take advantage of taxpayers money?!

I am working this hard so far in advance so I don't HAVE to. I don't want to be a sponge and I don't intend to be one! I'm not going to play on the NHS every time I get a sniffle and if I DO I will be paying taxes just like the rest of you. I'm not doing this half arsed. If I live in your country, earn money, legally, in your country, then I pay taxes just like the rest of you. If I pay taxes then I think I'm entitled to health care. If I pay taxes I feel I'm allowed to use public transport and roads.
(Poppet some assembly required., Fri 8 May 2009, 15:13, Reply)

You seem to be saying that you want to come to the UK
with no specific skills, and work in unskilled jobs in order to save up enough money to attend University. If i've got this wrong then please correct me.

What i'm saying is that why, with your current lack of skills, should you be able to come and take a job which an unskilled person from the UK (or anywhere else in Europe what with the new freedom of movement of labour) could do. You're saying you should do it on a promise that you will stay in the UK afterwards and keep contributing. But someone already from the UK (or europe) is far more likely to stay.

I'm not trying to have a go, i'm just pointing out the argument against what you want to happen.
(Bazongaloid, Fri 8 May 2009, 15:18, Reply)

Nope you're mostly right.
except I'm moving there mainly to be with someone I'm in love with. Call me a stupid romantic, a naive bint I don't really give a shite.

Why shouldn't I be able to take a job? We have thousands of UK people coming into Australia every single year who do the exact same thing. Moreover - many of them DON'T return to the UK and live here illegally. I've got no intention of staying in the UK illegally. If my visa runs out and I can't get another one - then I will go to Holland (family) or Ireland.

But I'm not going to the UK just to act like some princess who is too good to work hard. Yes - there are people in the UK who are probably FAR more skilled then I am and who will stay there. But there are also people who are lazy and would never work a day in their lives if they could get away with it.
And I'm buggered if I'm going to sit back and let that opportunity go to waste. If they don't want to work - fine - they don't have to. Why can't I work instead?
(Poppet some assembly required., Fri 8 May 2009, 15:24, Reply)

There's no point in arguing with him
he's like a pitbull when he's got a serious point to make, the only way to break him off is to stick a finger up his arse.
(Bert's other profile wants to wear your balls on a necklace, Fri 8 May 2009, 15:26, Reply)

I don't care.
I'm going to argue this until we're both blue in the face.

He believes he is right. And some of his points are perfectly valid. However - I also believe I am right and I *know* some of my points are also perfectly valid.
(Poppet some assembly required., Fri 8 May 2009, 15:31, Reply)

fingers up my arse aside
I've already said why you shouldn't be able to just come and take a job in the UK. Just because you're all good and honest and will promise to stay and pay taxes and not use the NHS, doesn't mean that the system should be changed just to suit you.

And don't bring people staying illegally into this, that has nothing to do with this debate. There may well be lots of people in Oz from the UK, but there are a whole lot more over here, because getting paid in pounds means getting a lot more dollars when you send it home, and that is the worst thing that can happen as that simply means money leaves the UK economy. At least if you are working cash in hand you are more than likely spending the money straight away.

I've lived in Oz, I would have loved to stay longer, but I couldn't. I got over it. Have you travelled much around your own country? The big cities are all very different, if you don't fit into small town life, try living in Sydney, it's incredibly cosmopolitan.
(Bazongaloid, Fri 8 May 2009, 15:32, Reply)

I have actually.
I've travelled very widely around australia. My whole family and I packed a few sets of clothes and hitched a rusty old caravan to the car and we travelled for five and a half months right around Australia. I've been to well over 200 towns, have been into every state and territory except for tassie, thoroughly explored each of them, going well inland and right to the sea.

I've been just about everywhere I can think of and I never once was in a place I liked enough to call home.

And why the buggery fuck would I send money home? I don't have a family to support, I don't have debts to pay off, and I'm not keen on having to part with it once I've earned it unless it's to pay bills etc.
(Poppet some assembly required., Fri 8 May 2009, 15:36, Reply)

So to take your argument to the next step
you are saying that you are a very transient person, who doesn't like to settle. What makes you think you will like the UK any better? Also, you've toured your country as a child. You are only 17. I went to lots of places as a child, I wouldn't feel remotely qualified to decide if they were places I would like to live now without going back and spending some time there.

And once again back to the crux of the argument, why should the fact that you really, really, really want to, make any difference as to whether you can prove that you will contribute to the country?
(Bazongaloid, Fri 8 May 2009, 15:46, Reply)

I'm not saying that at all
I'm not saying I'm a very transient person. I want to settle. I like rain and I like cold and I like the occasional sunny day. Fact is I can see myself fitting in more comfortably in the UK then I ever have fitted in here.

If you're not going to let people have a chance - you're essentially closing off your country to everybody. Nobody would want to come because nobody would feel welcome. I want a chance and I know there are thousands of other people who would also jump at the opportunity if it was given to them.

Sometimes risks have to be taken. Your economy is already in crap shape. If people are willing to come over and work, in any sector - then I think they should be able to. If they pay taxes, do everything legally - why the hell not? The only difference of me and you is that my passport is australian and yours is british. That's the only difference between you thinking you're entitled to your job and that I'm not even allowed one chance.

I'm not asking for all the laws to be changed - just for me. I'm asking for a chance at being able to start my life over. There are so many people just like me who want to get out and begin again. I have been through some messed up shit and I've wanted to get as far away from here as I can since then.
I now have funds, I have someone waiting for me, I have motivation, general skills (which aren't apparently good enough) and I'm willing to work hard.

Being able to prove this is essentially my word, my bank statements, my certificates and my passports. My certificates are evidence that I work hard. My tafe course that I'm doing right now? It takes 14 months to do. I finish it about two months before I leave for the UK. I'll be qualified in Hospitality for reception, waiting, bartending, phone call operations and a whole host of other jobs.
If that's not evidence that I'm not willing to work hard then I'm not ever going to convince you and I'm not going to waste my time trying to do so.
(Poppet some assembly required., Fri 8 May 2009, 15:57, Reply)

without wanting to get right into this debate
I'd like to point out that our economy is indeed in crap shape, with something like 2 million unemployed. now is when we could really do with all jobs being available for the people who already live here.
( Vipros. clever got me this far, then tricky got me in, Fri 8 May 2009, 16:06, Reply)

Well, you are wasting your time by arguing
with someone on the internet over the UK governments stance on immigration. I'm pointing out what the counter argument to what your saying is.

To go back to your last comment "sometimes risks have to be taken", but not on the level of an individual person coming to the UK, the immigration system does not work like that, indeed, no immigration system could ever work like that.

Lots of people come to the UK, we are by no means a closed country, we actually have a very easy to abuse system, which is being tightened up a bit, but it's still not as good as the one set out in Oz, which although tough, works and is, as fair editfar as these things can be, pretty fair.

And once again, you have "general" skills, but so do the hundreds of thousands of british teenagers who leave college every single year in exactly your position. And since they are already here, the argument I'm putting forward is that surely they should have first dibs on the unskilled jobs that you will be looking for.

If we get to the stage in the UK where we are desperate for waiting staff in cafes, then your skill set will be the one that the immigration officials will be looking for, but at the moment they aren't.

Now I realise that you are looking at this from the inside, but I'm trying to explain dispassionately why what you want is not reasonable.
(Bazongaloid, Fri 8 May 2009, 16:06, Reply)

Oz immigration
You have a very good system that, depite a few flaws, is fuckin excellent and should be used as a template by our own twunty govenment.
( SpikeyPickle wishes he was mabazaritchie, Fri 8 May 2009, 15:05, Reply)

But if every country were a bit easier to enter then there would be a better flow of people around the world.
If we could all moved around more then we would become less insular and the world would become a better place eventually.

*hippies*
( girlinthehole, Fri 8 May 2009, 15:02, Reply)

but but
then we might get more french people here.....
( Vipros. clever got me this far, then tricky got me in, Fri 8 May 2009, 15:18, Reply)

So what you're saying is
'KEEP THE WOGS, SPICKS AND SANDNIGGERS OUT'?
(Bert's other profile wants to wear your balls on a necklace, Fri 8 May 2009, 15:03, Reply)

Especially them.
yes.
(Bazongaloid, Fri 8 May 2009, 15:04, Reply)

But blacks are ok?

(Bert's other profile wants to wear your balls on a necklace, Fri 8 May 2009, 15:04, Reply)

Nope
The gayers are bad as well.
( SpikeyPickle wishes he was mabazaritchie, Fri 8 May 2009, 15:07, Reply)

Yeah
those filthy gayers, spreading their monkey disease. They should all be locked up
(Bert's other profile wants to wear your balls on a necklace, Fri 8 May 2009, 15:09, Reply)

Probably
Although I don't know all that many of them. So it might just be the ones i've met that are okay.
(Bazongaloid, Fri 8 May 2009, 15:07, Reply)

You need more
interracial porn
(Bert's other profile wants to wear your balls on a necklace, Fri 8 May 2009, 15:09, Reply)

Interracial gay porn
FTW!
( SpikeyPickle wishes he was mabazaritchie, Fri 8 May 2009, 15:16, Reply)

You're fucking sick
you know that?
(Bert's other profile wants to wear your balls on a necklace, Fri 8 May 2009, 15:16, Reply)