You don't believe in science?

( Colonel Dracula Two manky hookers and a racist dwarf, Tue 15 Jun 2010, 11:03, 3 replies, latest was 16 years ago)

It's just magic made boring, isn't it

(Darth Foxtrot A one-man army dedicated to making fetch happen, Tue 15 Jun 2010, 11:04, Reply)

So you do believe science exists
And works?
( Labia Majora You keep on talking but it makes no sense at all, Tue 15 Jun 2010, 11:04, Reply)

Alright, I'll rephrase
I have no interest in science and am therefore completely opposite to Leonard off the Big Bang Theory

I maintain, though, that whisking ingredients, putting them in the oven for twenty minutes and retrieving a cake is MAGIC
(Darth Foxtrot A one-man army dedicated to making fetch happen, Tue 15 Jun 2010, 11:08, Reply)

I don't understand why anyone doesn't have an interest in science.
What a waste.
(PsychoChomp, Tue 15 Jun 2010, 11:13, Reply)

It's like those adverts about people that don't care about politics
It underpins your entire life, the entire progress of the human race has been based on science ion one guise or another.
( Naked Ape call me Caitlyn, Tue 15 Jun 2010, 11:16, Reply)

I fucking love science
it's just so interesting. I've been watching Wonders of the Solar System, and while it is slightly watered down science for the masses, it is still thoroughly interesting and engaging.
( Vipros. clever got me this far, then tricky got me in, Tue 15 Jun 2010, 11:16, Reply)

I love science too
Although was shit at it in school. I like to know how things work, and about new advancements in technology.
( Labia Majora You keep on talking but it makes no sense at all, Tue 15 Jun 2010, 11:19, Reply)

I was good at science in school
well, not biology. I seemed to have a natural aptitude for physics.

I love the mind-blowing stuff, like enormous ice-geysers on some of the more distant moons, or the repetition of patterns in various things shaped by natural processes.

technology is cool too, particularly now when a lot of very science fictiony stuff is being created.
( Vipros. clever got me this far, then tricky got me in, Tue 15 Jun 2010, 11:27, Reply)

Astrophysics is all cool
Evolution of galaxies for one:

Old theory: eliptical galaxies eventually develop structure and form spiral galaxies, pretty patterns, rather nice idea that nature tends to something hige and amazing.

New theory: Elipical galaxies are formed when other galaxies smash into each other.
( Tedium Alduce me to interlow myself., Tue 15 Jun 2010, 12:14, Reply)

It's not entirely science's fault
I have a natural tendency to be disinterested in anything I'm not good at. I was shit at science in school and deeply resent being made to take Physics and Chemistry GCSE. However, it would help if science wasn't so fucking boring
(Darth Foxtrot A one-man army dedicated to making fetch happen, Tue 15 Jun 2010, 11:16, Reply)

I forget who Richard Dawkins was quoting at the time, but I think he picked the right turn of phrase:
"Science is interesting, and if you don't agree, you can fuck off."
(LongJohnBaldry, Tue 15 Jun 2010, 11:18, Reply)

How dissapointing
I thought you were better than that. What is a non-science guy like you doing in a science web like this?
(Aberracion Life's getting very complicated, but a lot of fun., Tue 15 Jun 2010, 11:24, Reply)

Hang about
We were getting on great a minute ago!
(Darth Foxtrot A one-man army dedicated to making fetch happen, Tue 15 Jun 2010, 11:27, Reply)

I thought you were another sexy geeky guy
I'll forgive you if you say you like video games.
(Aberracion Life's getting very complicated, but a lot of fun., Tue 15 Jun 2010, 11:36, Reply)

Course I love video games
I can assure you it's possible to be geeky without knowing any science beyond the "fiction" part

The sexy bit is really for you to decide!
(Darth Foxtrot A one-man army dedicated to making fetch happen, Tue 15 Jun 2010, 11:43, Reply)

Oh, well
I imagine I can give you a pass, then.
(Aberracion Life's getting very complicated, but a lot of fun., Tue 15 Jun 2010, 11:46, Reply)

Please tell me "pass" means something much filthier in Spanish

(Darth Foxtrot A one-man army dedicated to making fetch happen, Tue 15 Jun 2010, 11:51, Reply)

I thought you were happily taken

(Aberracion Life's getting very complicated, but a lot of fun., Tue 15 Jun 2010, 12:00, Reply)

I am, very much so. As are you, I believe. I am simply being disgusting. It's what I do.
sorry
(Darth Foxtrot A one-man army dedicated to making fetch happen, Tue 15 Jun 2010, 12:01, Reply)

And you do it well, I'm under your spell...
F*ck! Now I have it on my mind again! Your fault!
(Aberracion Life's getting very complicated, but a lot of fun., Tue 15 Jun 2010, 12:20, Reply)

It's MY fault you have a filthy mind and slightly dubious taste in men?
;-)
(Darth Foxtrot A one-man army dedicated to making fetch happen, Tue 15 Jun 2010, 12:38, Reply)

"What a waste"

I knew you'd see the light eventually. "Wake Up And Make Love To Me" on the B-side was good too.
(Cave Duck, Tue 15 Jun 2010, 11:23, Reply)

No it isn't, shut up.

(PsychoChomp, Tue 15 Jun 2010, 11:06, Reply)

That struck me as odd too

( Labia Majora You keep on talking but it makes no sense at all, Tue 15 Jun 2010, 11:04, Reply)

Science is not there to be believed in.
It is just there.
( Bartleby A dead man on vacation, Tue 15 Jun 2010, 11:06, Reply)

How does science explain this guy turning water into wine?
It can't so obviously science is a fallacy.
( whenanimalsattackhumans clad in global hypercolour, Tue 15 Jun 2010, 11:08, Reply)

That and the wires thing

(Darth Foxtrot A one-man army dedicated to making fetch happen, Tue 15 Jun 2010, 11:11, Reply)

Got me there, perhaps it didn't happen.
I'll ask Dicky Dawkins.
( Bartleby A dead man on vacation, Tue 15 Jun 2010, 11:14, Reply)

Dicky Dawkins is a chump
and if he bad mouths me again I'll spark him right out.. And his mate Stevie Hawkin
( whenanimalsattackhumans clad in global hypercolour, Tue 15 Jun 2010, 11:31, Reply)

Don't forget the waterskiing

( Naked Ape call me Caitlyn, Tue 15 Jun 2010, 11:14, Reply)

Science also doesn't explain
why some people worship a carpenter who lived 2000 years ago
( Colonel Dracula Two manky hookers and a racist dwarf, Tue 15 Jun 2010, 11:14, Reply)

Ooh! Ooh! *raises hand*
I know this one!
(Darth Foxtrot A one-man army dedicated to making fetch happen, Tue 15 Jun 2010, 11:17, Reply)

Please explain

( Colonel Dracula Two manky hookers and a racist dwarf, Tue 15 Jun 2010, 11:20, Reply)

Long, tolerant to other peoples' beliefs answer?
Or short, B3ta-friendly answer?
(Darth Foxtrot A one-man army dedicated to making fetch happen, Tue 15 Jun 2010, 11:22, Reply)

Both

( Bartleby A dead man on vacation, Tue 15 Jun 2010, 11:24, Reply)

I can't be bothered with the first one. Too long
And I'm not going into the second one, because it would have been exaggerated beyond my own opinion for comedy effect and would have been offensive to my best B3ta-friend

Sorry
(Darth Foxtrot A one-man army dedicated to making fetch happen, Tue 15 Jun 2010, 11:28, Reply)

WIMP
Weak Interactive Massive Particle.
( Bartleby A dead man on vacation, Tue 15 Jun 2010, 11:30, Reply)

I'm all for offending huge groups with sweeping statements about which I have little or no understanding
just not keen on upsetting my friends

Yes, I know I need to try harder to fit in around here
(Darth Foxtrot A one-man army dedicated to making fetch happen, Tue 15 Jun 2010, 11:36, Reply)

Oh, FFS. If you won't offend them then I will
One of the major drawbacks to being an intelligent species is that, the more you learn, and the more you communicate with one another, the more questions you start to ask. I think it's fair to say that, despite the signs of intelligence shown by dolphins, chimpanzees, badgers and - most importantly - crows, we're the only species that has got as far as questioning its own existence - and indeed its own purpose.

So, whilst the natural philosophers of old trying their best to provide an explanation for why shit goes down the way it does, they have a tendency to go for wild postulations rather than experiment and observation. Sometimes they get it right, sometimes they get the right idea, and sometimes they just made shit up. And when life's most challenging questions are staring you in the face, eventually some people will start to speculate that there are gods controlling these things.

Arguments rage over whose gods are the right ones, and indeed whether it should be 'gods' or 'a god,' but in the absence of a better explanation, most people concede to the 'god' idea eventually.

Trouble is, people get attached to the cosy 'god' explanation, and the myths get wilder and wilder as they're passed down through generations. Life after death becomes a common theme, as does the idea of 'god' or 'the gods' wielding peculiar supernatural powers, and eventually 'choosing' people to perform tasks for them.

All this time, science is advancing. People slowly get used to the idea that you can discover an awful lot by simply looking at something in more detail, as opposed to just having a quick look and then dreaming up an explanation.

Unfortunately, even though it provides nice, sensible, rational explanations, people have trouble letting go of the other idea they've been bought up with - 'god.' It's lovely that we can now explain the motion of a solid object, the swing of a pendulum or the elasticity of a spring, but what's going to happen to me after I die? Nothing new? Oh well, I'll stick with my 'god/heaven' explanation then.

I think part of the problem, for most people, is the indoctrination that comes from such an early age. As soon as you're old enough to understand that people are born and will one day die, there's a priest there to tell you that you were a blessing from 'god' and if you're a good boy/girl then your 'soul' will fly up to 'heaven' when you die. Religion gets a headstart over science because this is much easier to explain to the juvenile mind than such process as sexual reproduction, genetics, illness and necrosis. So every generation starts its life with an older and wiser authority figure telling them the same set of myths that was passed down to them from an early age.

And of course, it provides an explanation which is initially easier to understand and much fluffier than the cold logic of science. You can see why people cling to it so fervently; some people are never shown how flatly it contradicts science and logic, and some people see it and try to find ways to reconcile the two, just because they fear that the cold, clinical cycle of being born, surviving, possibly reproducing and then dying only to rot, too much to bear.

If you need me, I'll be putting on my fire-proof jacket in anticipation of a fairly substantial flaming.
(LongJohnBaldry, Tue 15 Jun 2010, 12:00, Reply)

That's managed to be both long and offensive. Impressive work mate.
I was simply unprepared to start laying into Christians, against which I have nothing in particular, before actually having the religion discussion with my religious best B3ta-friend /end simpering excuse
(Darth Foxtrot A one-man army dedicated to making fetch happen, Tue 15 Jun 2010, 12:04, Reply)

I didn't think I was consciously being that offensive.
Just a bit pragmatic. Possibly a little patronising. And I didn't feel any need to pick on the christians specifically, even though it was christian priests prattling on at my juvenile self in my case.
(LongJohnBaldry, Tue 15 Jun 2010, 12:24, Reply)

That's a very good explanation
Just 2 things:

The idea of god, originally, where does it come from? How is it that all this very uneducated people came with a concept as big as that?

Second, when I was a kid and knew nothing about genetics, I was told the story about the stork. Once I understood all the other things, I gave up that story as stupid. Maybe you still believe on it?
(Aberracion Life's getting very complicated, but a lot of fun., Tue 15 Jun 2010, 12:06, Reply)

This + theory of mind (awareness of other conscious entities as being conscious)
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B._F._Skinner#Superstition_in_the_pigeon
( Tedium Alduce me to interlow myself., Tue 15 Jun 2010, 12:18, Reply)

The first question
is a good one. I can't actually tell you because I wasn't there when somebody came up with the idea. However, in a large, unexplored world, you can imagine how easy it would be to look at complicated and confusing as natural phenomena and suppose that perhaps the thunderstorm was caused by a monster that lives beyond the horizon, and you can see how ideas like that might develop into the idea of a big, bearded feller at the top of the sky who put everything together in the first place.

The second question - don't be daft, I was delivered by a crow! Joking aside, you give up the stork story because it can very easily be proven to be patently false. That, and your parents admit they were lying. Unfortunately, religion seems to endure because it has long had this habit of shrouding itself in mystical gibberish and hiding behind the (flimsy) excuse that 'science doesn't know everything.'

Science will accept the existence of 'god' when he/she/it can be detected, and not before. Religion claims that 'god' is beyond the limits of our perception or similar. Trouble is, this leaves them in a stalemate, where religion's only defence is its claim that science can't disprove the existence of 'god.' Anyone with a better understanding of logic, please feel free to pick that apart; personally I've resigned to the stance that even though science has no counterexample to logically disprove the existence of 'god' to the satisfaction of religion, common sense suggests that the enormous, gaping lack of evidence for 'god' is pretty damn convincing.
(LongJohnBaldry, Tue 15 Jun 2010, 12:20, Reply)

I agree with you
And I think I'd be agnostic if it wasn't for a few very deep experiences. But I realize that believing is not something that can be forced into someone.

I had a priest explaining me that faith is a blessing, and not everybody gets the same blessings. So, some people don't believe because God didn't want them to believe. It gets more and more complicated.
(Aberracion Life's getting very complicated, but a lot of fun., Tue 15 Jun 2010, 12:24, Reply)

Some people do have these odd experiences.
And, being typically cynical and a bit pragmatic about it, I'd say there's almost certainly a natural explanation for them. So you're right: believing is not something that can be forced into someone.

As for the faith/blessing explanation from that priest...I'm sorry if it meant a lot to you, but to me, that has all the hallmarks of the typical horse-shit I was just talking about.
(LongJohnBaldry, Tue 15 Jun 2010, 12:27, Reply)

lack of evidence can be convincing, but it's rarely, if ever, proof.
The existence of some higher power beyond our perceptions is, by definition of it's properties ("beyond our perception"), impossible to prove. Therefore you have to have faith in it's existence, and faith that it is benevolent and caring.
I can not make that leap.
( Labia Majora You keep on talking but it makes no sense at all, Tue 15 Jun 2010, 12:26, Reply)

The last bit about proving the existence of god is interesting.
when god lived in a high mountain, it was easy to say so. Then when the people said "I've been up there and he isn't." the goal posts had to move. God then was in the sky. Well, someone looked through a telescope and couldn't see him. So god became invisble and now, outside of the universe.

The closer technology or man comes to god, the more ellusive god is.
( Bartleby A dead man on vacation, Tue 15 Jun 2010, 12:28, Reply)

I followed Descartes through deconstructing all that we can say is True
Leading to the famous 'cogito ergo sum'. I don't agree with how he took this as a baseline to then go on to talk about the existence of a benevolent 'God', I stuck to the idea that everything apart from my own existence can be doubted.

However, that's not a way to live (solipsism or paranoia I guess), but I use it as an explanation for why I'm agnostic, and say that instead of following a religion, I follow my own morals, which essentially boil down to the 'do unto others' principal.
( Labia Majora You keep on talking but it makes no sense at all, Tue 15 Jun 2010, 12:12, Reply)

I had the same problem with Descartes
His way of thinking made sense but at the same time, it sounds a bit like a desperate way to try to find something real to stuck to it.
(Aberracion Life's getting very complicated, but a lot of fun., Tue 15 Jun 2010, 12:15, Reply)

No flames here

( Bartleby A dead man on vacation, Tue 15 Jun 2010, 12:20, Reply)

Have you tried to get a decent carpenter?
I'd worship a good one if he rebuilt my bathroom the way I want it.
( Bartleby A dead man on vacation, Tue 15 Jun 2010, 11:21, Reply)

And then if he fed my entire family
with half a sardine and a mouldy loaf of bread, then jesus christ we'd have a winner..
( whenanimalsattackhumans clad in global hypercolour, Tue 15 Jun 2010, 11:32, Reply)