That depends on whether
you believe we are still driven by an entirely pack mentality
( Amberl was stripey and dominated Europe, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 9:59, 3 replies, latest was 15 years ago)

darling, you can't have been to australia.
visit my school. See the feral packs swarming around.
(Poppet some assembly required., Wed 22 Sep 2010, 10:02, Reply)

That doesn't explain those
who don't belong to the pack though. I think looking at examples of friendship and support no more proves that we're a 'pack' than we'd assume that because one person likes a head massage from another, that we've got a genetic memory of enjoying having fleas etc picked out by another member of the tribe
( Amberl was stripey and dominated Europe, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 10:04, Reply)

this is a good point.
my school is undeniably feral though. I'mm glad I've got less then 17 days of classes left. getting away from those scrotes will be the best thing that's ever happened to me.
(Poppet some assembly required., Wed 22 Sep 2010, 10:07, Reply)

Is your school like Mad Max....
...with thousands of 'punks' in Zandra Rhhodes outfits chasing poor Poppet on customised BMX bikes?
Cool.
(Tugnut Ex of this parish, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 10:12, Reply)

I fucking wish it was.
it's filled with girls who love fake tan, boys who don't brush their teeth, 13 year olds who think sex is the height of cool and every other kind of feral in between.
I'm in the nerds group. I'm universally shunned for the most part.
(Poppet some assembly required., Wed 22 Sep 2010, 10:15, Reply)

This reminded me of Sealab 2012.
Mainly as I think there is a scene where people are going "Shuuuuuuuuuuuuuned" but I may have made that up.

I'm pretty sure I have them all on a HDD somewhere...
underneath the seeeeeaaaaaalab
( TGB checking Off Topic is still shit at, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 10:23, Reply)

that's not at all how it works.
You are trying to apply conscious choices and decisions to a deep-seated, unconscious, biological mechanism. Or, to put it another way, you're looking at it from the point of view of the individual. This isn't chaos theory, the effect of an individual's behaviour is essentially meaningless.
( the mighty badger Aphrodite, on a bar stool, by your side, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 10:08, Reply)

It could just be that I'm stupid
but I'm failing to see the point you're making. If it doesn't affect conscious choices and decisions (I assume you mean that instead it shapes the minds that make those decisions so we are predisposed down a certain way) then how can we be aware it's functioning.
( Amberl was stripey and dominated Europe, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 10:17, Reply)

It's not that you're in any way stupid
it's a fucking difficult concept to understand let alone explain.

We aren't aware it is functioning on any meaningful level because its timescales of action are so long. "pack mentality" is a species working co-operatively, and it's how this species has always functioned.

The simplest way I can think to explain it is, say you were carrying a gene that made you work totally and completely outside the pack, you'd need that gene to, over many many generations, show itself to be more useful to the species than a "pack" gene. Which, really, couldn't happen now when you think about how intrinsic in society the pack system is.

Incidentally, we do sometimes get people who (possibly for genetic reasons) are predisposed to act against the pack. We generally call them sociopaths, and they usually die in prison, which limits their breeding possibilities*

*TMB apologises for this sweeping and faintly ridiculous simplification of sociopathic behaviour from a "nature vs nurture" argument
( the mighty badger Aphrodite, on a bar stool, by your side, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 10:28, Reply)

I do see the point now
though sociopaths are hardly the only people who show a lack of pack mentality. After all having a gene that made you an unpack animal still wouldn't mean that you'd necessarily live/breed outside the pack, especially if born in it.

Thanks for the clearness of the explanation.
( Amberl was stripey and dominated Europe, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 10:52, Reply)

I do
But from the times we've had this sort of conversation in the past, I get the impression you don't.
(LongJohnBaldry, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 10:02, Reply)

True
don't get me wrong, I acknowledge you know a lot more than me in all liklihood, a vast quantity more, but that's never a valid reason for just automatically agreeing
( Amberl was stripey and dominated Europe, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 10:06, Reply)

Oh, I'm not saying you should necessarily agree with me.
Nor would I claim to know more about it than you do. I'm just curious as to why you believe we're not entirely driven by a pack mentality.
(LongJohnBaldry, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 10:08, Reply)

Because all of the examples
that are given that supposedly 'prove' this are not *necessarily* attributable to a pack mentality (referring to the post above) though of course they can be. And if we were driven by a subconscious pack mentality, I'd expect a lot more uniformity of response to distressful situations, to individual *and* group reactions to events. It seems pointless to claim a pack mentality then claim something like 'well it's different for everyone and we can't really prove that it's what drives individual actions'
( Amberl was stripey and dominated Europe, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 10:12, Reply)

distressful?

( Vipros. clever got me this far, then tricky got me in, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 10:25, Reply)

You do make a good point - just because something can be attributed to pack mentality, doesn't mean it's necessarily the correct explanation
However I think you've gone on to confuse pack behaviour with personality. The subtle nuances of personality will cause an individual to respond differently to a given situation - take your example of distress; you'll get a whole spectrum of responses from those who stoically try to remain calm down to those whose neuroses just drive them to rock back and forth in the corner waiting for it to end. But after this terrible event is over, observe how they all flock to one another or to their friends and relatives for mutual comfort. Disasters do seem to bring people together. And the community as a whole will probably agree that it was A Bad Thing. That's the mentality of the pack, rather than individual personality.
(LongJohnBaldry, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 10:27, Reply)

It makes a lot more sense I guess
if you attribute the term packs on a wider basis. I don't believe in a human pack i.e. us as a species, but on a small scale I can see how people bundle together, and their individual beliefs act as a trigger to join certain groups (Westboro Baptist Church springs to mind) that act as surrogate family groups. Packs still doesn't strike me as the right word though :S
( Amberl was stripey and dominated Europe, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 10:30, Reply)

You don't really see humanity as a whole uniting as a pack
But you can cluster it into individual packs, as you rightly say. Look at football supporters, or the way communities respond to immigrants*, and you see the very primal roots of the pack mentality. Pack is possibly not the right word, but whatever you want to call it, I think it's fair to say that 'the Pack' is what it stems from.

*_{E.g., when the charlatans from /talk get bored of an afternoon and barge in here...}
(LongJohnBaldry, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 10:35, Reply)

now that's not a fair example of pack mentality.
I'm a charlatan from talk.
( the mighty badger Aphrodite, on a bar stool, by your side, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 10:39, Reply)

The example I cite
was the way everyone on here would band together to hurl insults at JMG when he came on here to take the piss out of us for being interweb-lolfatties.

And wasn't this board only created because assorted QotWers were afraid they'd be told to piss off back to /qotw if they tried to go somewhere for a conversation when the week's question was shit?
(LongJohnBaldry, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 10:41, Reply)

yeah ... but that's not evolutionary pack behaviour as such
that's more what Amberl is thinking of. It's not really so relevant in an evolutionary sense because you defending yourself from JMG is not something that you'll do all your life to such an extent that defending themselves against JMG becomes something your offspring are predisposed to do. Actually, maybe it will? who knows?

I think the football supporters thing is a good one though, that can pass as a meme from parents to children, and is a strong social bond particularly in areas where maybe there is more social depravation.
( the mighty badger Aphrodite, on a bar stool, by your side, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 10:46, Reply)

True, I was just being facetious with that argument
Although I can envision a whole generation subsequently being born with an inherited neurotic response to being called a lolfatty.

I think the main thing about football supporters is the slightly chilling parallel between that and two packs of baboons or chimpanzees squaring up to one another. (And that's just their appearance, badum-tsssch!)
(LongJohnBaldry, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 10:52, Reply)

I still maintain the most surreal experience of my life
was sitting on my own on a train in Bavaria that got steamed by a load of 1860 Munich fans after Bayern fans. The whole thing was just totalled around me, first by the fans and then by riot police. And German riot police don't fuck about. A lot of blood. And I was just totally ignored by everyone concerned. Weird.
( the mighty badger Aphrodite, on a bar stool, by your side, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 10:59, Reply)

That sounds fucking terrifying
The only thing more frightening than a mob of angry apes must surely be a mob of angry apes yelling in German.
(LongJohnBaldry, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 11:02, Reply)

talk was only created
to stop /board people throwing the dummy if a thread didn't have a picture in it. Board evolution, innit? ;)

board was only created because the internet was all fields *reminisces*
( the mighty badger Aphrodite, on a bar stool, by your side, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 10:49, Reply)

mentality doesn't seem like the right word either

( Vipros. clever got me this far, then tricky got me in, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 10:39, Reply)

I'd say it's deeper seated than that
pack mentality from an evolutionary point of view is why we have schools, hospitals, etc. because why should everyone teach their children to count when one person can teach a hundred and the other 99 can do something else useful? It also plays to the strengths and weaknesses of a population - you're good a fighting? defend the village. You're good at counting? work out a bartering system so we can trade all the grain we have for meat which the next village has... etc etc.

pack mentality is arguably the most important single thing in humans reaching the position they are in now, good or bad.
( the mighty badger Aphrodite, on a bar stool, by your side, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 10:33, Reply)

I think you're right
Because without a pack mentality, there's no incentive to form any sort of society. And even packs of wild animals form a 'society' of sorts - even if it looks more like just a hierarchy, it does give a lot of credence to your argument.
(LongJohnBaldry, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 10:39, Reply)

it does

( Vipros. clever got me this far, then tricky got me in, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 10:39, Reply)

I think Vipros has a good point
that "mentality" might not be the right word. Pack mentality has negative connotations, especially amongst the UK press. behaviour, maybe.
( the mighty badger Aphrodite, on a bar stool, by your side, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 10:41, Reply)

It does
From a purely technical point of view, I think is the right word, but there a lot of undesirable connotations you have to dissociate it from.
(LongJohnBaldry, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 10:45, Reply)

I'm not so sure
to me it implies that it is more of a conscious thing
( Vipros. clever got me this far, then tricky got me in, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 10:46, Reply)

The altruistic concept Dawkins talks about
Is not conscious. nothing in evolution is conscious, the timescales are not short enough for conscious decisions to convey measurable advantages. Pack mentality is not something that actively "drives" us in that we have any say or control over it. It just "is" .. and yes, we are. It would be impossible for us as species not to be. How an individual behaves is insignificant to either evolution or the smug arsehole Dawkins' argument.
( the mighty badger Aphrodite, on a bar stool, by your side, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 10:05, Reply)

But that's just not provable
not in any real respect :S I'm not really seeing the proof of a pack mentality even a subconscious one. Just how many people would it take to conclude that a biological imperative had shifted from a primary focus?
( Amberl was stripey and dominated Europe, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 10:09, Reply)

well, the individual vs species point is a cornerstone of evolutionary theory.
Of course that doesn't mean I expect you to believe it just because I say so, but more eloquent people than I have written on that many many times.

In terms of numbers to prove an evolutionary change? it doesn't work like that exactly, but technically, you need to see a statistically significant population living in a completely different way. So, no partnerships of any kind, no joint child rearing by any combination of the sexes, no co-operative living so no towns, villages, shops, schools or education, hospitals, cars, power, computers, processed food ... nothing that you hadn't made or learned yourself without ANY input from other people other than maybe whichever single adult reared you.

And crucially, this large population living like this would need to have moved from a position that had all of the above things to not having it (or else it's not an evolutionary change towards that position). And the population would have to be thriving, and would have to be out-competing other human populations which have all the above pack advantages for it to be anything other than an evolutionary failure.

I'm pretty sure if a population like that existed we'd notice ;)
( the mighty badger Aphrodite, on a bar stool, by your side, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 10:18, Reply)

See this makes a lot more sense
I can see where you are coming from. I might not necessarily agree that pack mentality brought us to that point, but I can see the line of working.
( Amberl was stripey and dominated Europe, Wed 22 Sep 2010, 10:27, Reply)