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# sorry, TJ (hooker). nicely done to the pic, though
did people reach a consensus on the zoo gaz's? i've had the standard request from the YOU'VE GOT SPAM account (asking to use this)
i had a look back at people's posts on the matter and in the newsletter but couldn't make out what the general opinion was.

(i) is it really them, or a wind-up? i'm presuming genuine
(ii) i don't mind them using my pictures as long as they credit me (they did last time, but didn't ask). i don't do this stuff to make a fortune - just for a bit of fun. it seems fair that i should get the same as a reader who sends an image in (but unless it's the reader winner, that's not an issue)
(iii) i know to be wary about the 'confirm you are the originator' bit, as, though i put it together, it uses a number of source pics i don't own the copyright to. i plan to tell them that
(iv) as the request doesn't say anything about transferring copyright to them (just asks to publish it in next week's mag), i don't how there can be any legal basis for this to be the case. i presume fears along those lines are unfounded

what do people think?
(I helped save b3ta! plentyofants more ghee, vicar?, Thu 26 Jul 2007, 16:07, archived)
# personally, i think it's an easy decision
if you like the magazine, say yes
if you think it's a shite rag for idiots, say no
(I helped save b3ta! mictoboy shitting in your cunt since, Thu 26 Jul 2007, 16:10, archived)
# i think it's a shite rag for idiots
but,
i don't want to be too precious about "oh no, my copyrights". i take freely from source pictures on the web to use in the first place
i've always put stuff that's all my own work (like, say, my flickr pics) under a creative commons attribution-sharealike licence. so if, for some reason, they had wanted to use one of them, they'd have been free to, even though i don't personally like the magazine
(I helped save b3ta! plentyofants more ghee, vicar?, Thu 26 Jul 2007, 16:15, archived)
# that's all well and good
i appreciate all the complex legal issues

but at the end of the day, if you think they're shite, why give them something for free?

i was asked by a charity if they could use one of my images, i said yes, no probs
but if zoo or nuts asked, they could go fuck themselves
(I helped save b3ta! mictoboy shitting in your cunt since, Thu 26 Jul 2007, 16:17, archived)
#
...with a 16 year old's cock
(I helped save b3ta! Dixipoos Bye Bye Blackbird, Thu 26 Jul 2007, 16:18, archived)
# pfft.
to address mictoboy & mofaha's comments above and below, though:
i suppose the comparison i have is to free software. whereas my silly pictures aren't comparable in terms of usefulness to, say an operating system or a web server, the producers of these things have released them under licences which allow anyone, even organisations they are completely opposed to, to use them, without the need to ask permission. i admire the spirit of that kind of thing.
(and that's why the work i can legitimately release under creative commons doesn't have the 'non-commercial use' restriction)
(I helped save b3ta! plentyofants more ghee, vicar?, Thu 26 Jul 2007, 16:31, archived)
# no, fair do's
really,
i don't have an issue either way, if you think that letting them publish your pic is ok, do it. at least they've started asking (sort of)

all i know is, i wouldn't
(I helped save b3ta! mictoboy shitting in your cunt since, Thu 26 Jul 2007, 16:35, archived)
# That's fair enough.
I have some strong opinions about this but I'm happy to accept that they're just that - opinions.
Obviously this is a personal choice issue, and I definitely respect your right to make that choice.
(I helped save b3ta! mofaha ┐( ˘_˘)┌ ʅ(́◡◝)ʃ, Thu 26 Jul 2007, 16:47, archived)
# The difference is
you are not seeking material gain, and they are. Even if you argue that the 'you've got spam' images do not themselves make the publication money, they are essential filler which adds value and it would be easy to argue that they form an inducement to purchase. Thus, they have a monitary value. Why the fuck should these worthless imbeciles gain from your efforts?
(I helped save b3ta! mofaha ┐( ˘_˘)┌ ʅ(́◡◝)ʃ, Thu 26 Jul 2007, 16:18, archived)
#
(i) I don't know
(ii) I'm not sure
(iii) No idea
(iv) Couldn't really say

Hope this helps.


I'm sorry, I know I'm a cock. I make myself laugh sometimes though...
(Professor Kenny Martin Hmm? What?, Thu 26 Jul 2007, 16:10, archived)
# look down \/
(I helped save b3ta! ivesb Highly specialised Clinical Physiologist crapbag, Thu 26 Jul 2007, 16:11, archived)
# You make others laugh too
Quite frequently infact
(I helped save b3ta! Jessie © needs pirate name suggestions, Thu 26 Jul 2007, 16:12, archived)
# Hooray!
*does happy dance*

*invites out to dinner tonight*
(Professor Kenny Martin Hmm? What?, Thu 26 Jul 2007, 16:13, archived)
# *overhears*
*stops adjusting tie*
*looks across at huge bouquet*
*bursts into tears*
(I helped save b3ta! Dixipoos Bye Bye Blackbird, Thu 26 Jul 2007, 16:14, archived)
# ahem...
*bats red eyes*
(I helped save b3ta! ivesb Highly specialised Clinical Physiologist crapbag, Thu 26 Jul 2007, 16:16, archived)
# Aw, I'm sorry Dixon.
I'll take you out another night, m'kay?
(Professor Kenny Martin Hmm? What?, Thu 26 Jul 2007, 16:24, archived)
# I thought our date was tomorrow night baby?
(I helped save b3ta! Jessie © needs pirate name suggestions, Thu 26 Jul 2007, 16:25, archived)
# Right, so I'll take him out on Saturday while you're at work.
Winnar!
(Professor Kenny Martin Hmm? What?, Thu 26 Jul 2007, 16:26, archived)
# *glowers*
NOOOOOOOOO!


(I helped save b3ta! Sir Aunty Grampa Dave the Hat - enjoying a post-meridian muncheon - Ta! Cannaoogim!?, Thu 26 Jul 2007, 16:39, archived)
# doesn't help
but does make me laugh...
(I helped save b3ta! plentyofants more ghee, vicar?, Thu 26 Jul 2007, 16:16, archived)
# Will it be the winning entry and get you a prize
or just a filler where it gets printed and you get nowt?
(I helped save b3ta! HappyToast Groat froth, Thu 26 Jul 2007, 16:11, archived)
# Even a consenting creator of the 'winning entry'
get nothing... take a look at the pages, they all claim to be sent in by some third party, and the 'consent' email makes it clear you'll get nothing in any event.
(I helped save b3ta! mofaha ┐( ˘_˘)┌ ʅ(́◡◝)ʃ, Thu 26 Jul 2007, 16:15, archived)
# I got a portable DVD player
and, er, I forget what the other thing was
(I helped save b3ta! HappyToast Groat froth, Thu 26 Jul 2007, 16:18, archived)
# But didn't you actively threaten them?
(I helped save b3ta! mofaha ┐( ˘_˘)┌ ʅ(́◡◝)ʃ, Thu 26 Jul 2007, 16:19, archived)
# no, just asked them nicely
I find anger and violence rarely gets you what you want
(I helped save b3ta! HappyToast Groat froth, Thu 26 Jul 2007, 16:21, archived)
# My point is
they did not offer, and had you let it go you would have received nothing. I think that's sharp practice.
Seriously, this whole thing would be a non-issue for me were it not for the fact that the publications themselves are so fucking horrible and their methods are so demonstrably underhand and dishonest.
(I helped save b3ta! mofaha ┐( ˘_˘)┌ ʅ(́◡◝)ʃ, Thu 26 Jul 2007, 16:25, archived)
# true
If they had asked before printing I would have said no - unless the prize was worth it ;)

They really are a shocking excuse for a publication, and I think Riverghost deserves a medal for having the nerve to buy them each week.
(I helped save b3ta! HappyToast Groat froth, Thu 26 Jul 2007, 16:34, archived)
# Yeah, though to be honest
I think he uses this as an excuse ;)
(I helped save b3ta! mofaha ┐( ˘_˘)┌ ʅ(́◡◝)ʃ, Thu 26 Jul 2007, 16:36, archived)
# ^This
I felt kind of dirty just for flicking through one when I was first told about the 'all pics stolen from b3ta' disclaimer and wanted to see it for myself.
(I helped save b3ta! Afinkawan Yes I can hear you Clem Fandango, Thu 26 Jul 2007, 16:37, archived)
# I got one for emailing them when they used one of my pics as 'Reader Winner'.
Didn't need to threaten them but I assume that is only because others had already done the good work putting them on the run.
(I helped save b3ta! Afinkawan Yes I can hear you Clem Fandango, Thu 26 Jul 2007, 16:22, archived)
# Personally
I've gotten to the point where I think anyone who consents to this is actively encouraging the continuing theft of our images.
(I helped save b3ta! mofaha ┐( ˘_˘)┌ ʅ(́◡◝)ʃ, Thu 26 Jul 2007, 16:13, archived)
# ^ This
Tell 'em to fuck off. They're only throwing a strop because TGA, Manic, BBD'or etc. won't let them use their stuff.

Do you really want to be second choice for a shitrag like Zoo?

WELL? DO YOU?
(I helped save b3ta! Afinkawan Yes I can hear you Clem Fandango, Thu 26 Jul 2007, 16:19, archived)
# SCAAAABS!!!!
(I helped save b3ta! Dixipoos Bye Bye Blackbird, Thu 26 Jul 2007, 16:19, archived)
# SPLITTERS!!!
(I helped save b3ta! mofaha ┐( ˘_˘)┌ ʅ(́◡◝)ʃ, Thu 26 Jul 2007, 16:20, archived)
# *downloads lots of copywrited source pics from google*
(I helped save b3ta! mictoboy shitting in your cunt since, Thu 26 Jul 2007, 16:20, archived)
# Fair use dude, fair use.
(I helped save b3ta! mofaha ┐( ˘_˘)┌ ʅ(́◡◝)ʃ, Thu 26 Jul 2007, 16:21, archived)
# not in the uk
(I helped save b3ta! mictoboy shitting in your cunt since, Thu 26 Jul 2007, 16:22, archived)
# I don't know about that
but I've very sure about the laws that govern my usage of materials, and they fall within fair use.
(I helped save b3ta! mofaha ┐( ˘_˘)┌ ʅ(́◡◝)ʃ, Thu 26 Jul 2007, 16:28, archived)
# fair use is a US trade law
and copyrights have limitations and exemptions under that. There is no real legal thing called 'fair use' However placing images on the internet without establishing intellectual property rights could be deemed as releasing them into the public domain.
(I helped save b3ta! Pasanonic 's been known to cause insanity in laboratory mice, Thu 26 Jul 2007, 16:26, archived)
# Semantics.
There is a well-established and workable definition of fair use in most media in the US. Granted it is open to interpretation, but my personal use of images falls easily within the accepted definition.
(I helped save b3ta! mofaha ┐( ˘_˘)┌ ʅ(́◡◝)ʃ, Thu 26 Jul 2007, 16:30, archived)
# do you only use images you have permission to use in the creation of your work?
because i don't. and i'd feel a bit reluctant to stop other people using those images i've created from them.
in fact, i'd like to credit my source images when i post, only i know that probably opens me up to more trouble than it's worth
(I helped save b3ta! plentyofants more ghee, vicar?, Thu 26 Jul 2007, 16:24, archived)
# The difference here
is we don't make money from those images so we're either just about legal or at least not worth the effort of suing.

Zoo makes money from selling the magazine. They wouldn't be allowed to just steal people's articles off the net to print, nor would they get away with raiding the flickr pages of freelance photographers to reprint, for example.

Add to that the fact that you don't have permission to use the source images you use and you might be on shaky ground then allowing someone else to use the pics for gain.
(I helped save b3ta! Afinkawan Yes I can hear you Clem Fandango, Thu 26 Jul 2007, 16:27, archived)
# Also
you say you'd be reluctant to stop someone doing something with a picture you'd made from other people's pictures.

Fair enough but you can't stop them. Actively telling them they can use them might sort of absolve them from any legal difficulty.

Don't actively do either one then all you have to worry about is whether you're okay making the pictures you make.
(I helped save b3ta! Afinkawan Yes I can hear you Clem Fandango, Thu 26 Jul 2007, 16:33, archived)
# that last bit is more the side i was worried about
i don't want to expose myself to legal risk just by letting them print it. i was hoping that a fairly informal "well, i don't object to you printing it if you like, but bear in mind that it was made with the use of other people's work that i don't own the copyright to"
(I helped save b3ta! plentyofants more ghee, vicar?, Thu 26 Jul 2007, 16:36, archived)
# They'll read that as 'Yes'
Especially if they also want you to actively email it to them.
(I helped save b3ta! Afinkawan Yes I can hear you Clem Fandango, Thu 26 Jul 2007, 16:43, archived)
# no, they don't want me to email them - just email telling them it's ok to use it
and i presume (thinking about Barbarossa's comment), that just mailing the address with the subject couldn't considered consent to additional terms not mentioned in the gaz, as there can be no presumption that i would have seen & agreed to such terms (indeed, i haven't seen any)
(I helped save b3ta! plentyofants more ghee, vicar?, Thu 26 Jul 2007, 16:49, archived)
# like I said, if you want the kudos then do it
but ensure you explain that it's created under a CC license ( and put it in your profile, linking to said license and tell them it's a one use deal for this issue.

I'd rather hope that you'd hold out though.
(I helped save b3ta! Pasanonic 's been known to cause insanity in laboratory mice, Thu 26 Jul 2007, 16:52, archived)
# no. i don't really like zoo, so it's not about kudos (& they've used ones before, anyway)
it's more about what i'd see as the right thing to do, and not wanting to be hypocritical, given my own attitude to sources
sadly, i'd like to put my work under a cc licence, but there's only about 3 of them that don't use anyone else's work, so i don't feel in a position to do so. better to leave the legal situation murky rather than be accused of licensing out other people's pictures
(I helped save b3ta! plentyofants more ghee, vicar?, Thu 26 Jul 2007, 17:01, archived)
# If your work
is considered parody of the original then it can be deemed as 'transformative' and no-one can claim breach of copyright. I read it and there is legal precedence.
Mattel vs Tom Forsyth regarding food chain barbie. (cf. the 2003 9th Circuit case Mattel Inc. v. Walking Mountain Productions). ( apprently)
(I helped save b3ta! Pasanonic 's been known to cause insanity in laboratory mice, Thu 26 Jul 2007, 17:06, archived)
# Is the Kudos of your name in a
tits and ass mag really worth it when most of b3ta are holding out? If they can't get the source material this way they will have to continue to have a shitty page like the recent non b3ta ones or they will have to admit that they have a wealth of talent on tap here that they could encourage with compensation.

Oh and you can be sure that they are reading all this. Wednesday/Thursday is their trawl b3ta time. They have to get things to the printer by morning I would expect. It hits the shelves Sunday night.
(I helped save b3ta! Pasanonic 's been known to cause insanity in laboratory mice, Thu 26 Jul 2007, 16:31, archived)
# I think ignore them
like most of us are doing. Perhaps they will adopt a different stance soon. Like fucking paying for their material.
(I helped save b3ta! Pasanonic 's been known to cause insanity in laboratory mice, Thu 26 Jul 2007, 16:20, archived)