well yes, it was 'mindless criminality' but mindless criminality is a consequence of the failure of our politics
the situation which gave rise to this mindless criminality and a generation of youths who apparently seem to have little to no stake in their broader society is totally political.
It wasn't a protest against disenfranchisement, lack of opportunities, piss-poor education, lack of political representation and cultural alienation but it is BECAUSE of those things that there are gangs of lunatics running about smashing up shops and thieving everything in sight.
Its clear that you'd all like to think that you're in some way 'better' than this (and by implication 'better' than 'those other people') but if you were a teenager raised in their situation the chances are you might be out there in the shit with the rest of them.
Go on. Keep alienating people and setting them apart from your comfortable lives. That will DEFINITELY NOT lead to more trouble in future.
/returns_to_the_lurk
(, Wed 10 Aug 2011, 10:14, Share, Reply)
...
It wasn't a protest against disenfranchisement, lack of opportunities, piss-poor education, lack of political representation and cultural alienation but it is BECAUSE of those things that there are gangs of lunatics running about smashing up shops and thieving everything in sight.
This. Completely this. Are you me?
(
Enzyme is powered by sunlight, Wed 10 Aug 2011, 10:17,
Share,
Reply)
I don't think so
but it is possible. I wouldn't rule it out. If we ever met it may be safest for the universe if we didn't shake hands...
(, Wed 10 Aug 2011, 10:33, Share, Reply)
On the plus side
you could give each other handjobs and it wouldn't be gay.
(
Hellzapoppin, Wed 10 Aug 2011, 11:23,
Share,
Reply)
So basically it's not their fault. It's ours for not carrying them out of that situation?
You can wring your hands in guilt buy i'm not going to.
I grew up on poor estates and along with many others
didn't turn to being a worthless thieving scrote.
So life didn't deal you a perfect hand? You work to improve it.
Like those poor sods that worked to build their own business
only to have their life's work pissed away because some cunt didn't
want to pay for his can of stella.
And yes. I am better than "those" people. Better because I made myself better.
You think you have it bad growing up under Cameron?
I had Thatcher, national strikes, poll tax (proper riots) and mutually assured nuclear fucking destruction.
Mass unemployment, crap food and god damn fucking mullets.
(
Cerebus Sticky! Sticky! Stick! Stick!, Wed 10 Aug 2011, 10:33,
Share,
Reply)
It isn't about 'fault' or 'blame'.
It's about examining and understanding how subcultures like 'chavs' and 'neds' come about in the first place.
He's not trying to relieve them of responsibility, just acknowledging that the situation is more complex than a bunch of idiots deciding to go out looting and pillaging. The article (and teh gman) points to many different root causes.
(
Hellzapoppin, Wed 10 Aug 2011, 10:42,
Share,
Reply)
I didn't say it wasn't their fault for rioting.
Clearly if you are in a riot then you are the one rioting. If you murder someone you are a murderer.
I simply believe that before you condemn someone you should seek to understand the causes. It is very easy to say "they did it because they are bad people" but that still leaves the question of "why are they bad people?".
If society wants to prevent this nonsense from happening in the future then it is necessary to understand and learn from the circumstances that created it.
Simply saying "they are crims BANG EM UP" might do away with the individual perpetrators but it doesn't solve the problems which created the criminal behaviour and we will inevitably see a repeat of the riots again and again until those problems are solved.
(, Wed 10 Aug 2011, 10:50, Share, Reply)
You could apply the same reasoning to pedophiles
In fact more so if sexual orientation turns out to be nature rather than nurture.
If someone that has cravings for sex with children releases that this is not
acceptable to society decides to get help and has not hurt anyone else.
Then more power to them.
However, if they decide to act on their urges knowing fore well that it's wrong.
Then by all means "Bang them up" and enforce the treatment that will stop them
being a danger to society.
(
Cerebus Sticky! Sticky! Stick! Stick!, Wed 10 Aug 2011, 11:01,
Share,
Reply)
Yes...?
However, if the threat of prison isn't enough, then what? Prison deals with the symptom but not the cause in that case, and as teh gman says, it will simply perpetuate for decades...
(
Hellzapoppin, Wed 10 Aug 2011, 11:15,
Share,
Reply)
I don't have the answers to fix the worlds ill's
I can however concentrate on helping myself and those in my immediate circle.
Now if only everyone thought like that and we got all those circles to overlap slightly things would be a little better.
But that's not going to happen anytime soon.
Until then, do your best and if you see something that's wrong make sure you voice that opinion and
maybe the little cunts will take the hint.
(
Cerebus Sticky! Sticky! Stick! Stick!, Wed 10 Aug 2011, 12:25,
Share,
Reply)
^This
all of it. But especially the mullets.
I come from a council estate. A broken home. But I made out OK in the end.
But then again, I came from a school that would cane you for the slightest infraction. A family that would go mental if the police ever had to come to our door and that would mean severe chastisement.
I also respected and feared the police. I didn't like the police but I made damn sure I kept under their radar. And the mere thought of the court system would turn my bones to water.
These kids? They've never had any sort of discipline, any sort of punishment. They laugh at the police and jeer at the judges. Without going full-on, all Daily Mail, what they need is a sharp bloody shock. And it should hurt. A lot.
Cheers
(
Legless Mister Stabby - shanks for the memory, Wed 10 Aug 2011, 10:51,
Share,
Reply)
I've already addressed this many times over the last couple of days
b3ta.com/board/10504288
b3ta.com/links/664708
etc
These people have CHOSEN to be what they are, I know this because I live with them everyday, they are an abuse of our social system put there to support the working class when times are hard, selling themselves as intouchable victims of happenstance for free hand outs, the very idea that they might read a book, learn a trade, get a job or in any way better themselves or even appreciate what they already get for free they consider ridiculous, they have chosen to spend everyday partying and being arseholed, annoying wankers outside of society paid for by the rest of us without conscience or consequence, they don't want to earn anything, they don't even want a nice life, they just want more cool stuff and free beer, and they're getting together to take it and believe no one can stop them, with the excuse that it is their right to do so 'cos they are victims of them rich folks and conservatives or whatever or nothin, innit.
You can give them as much of a leg up and free opportunities to better themselves and contribute to society as you like, they'll just swap it for drugs and an Xbox.
The only solution is to stop the cycle of events that make their lifestyle choice possible, how you go about that I'm no expert at but seems to me some possible consequences and a bit of personal responsibility for their negative actions against the rest of us thrown in the mix might help a bit!
Otherwise known as a bit less support and understanding and a bit more of a kick up the arse!
(
..wil, Wed 10 Aug 2011, 10:38,
Share,
Reply)
You emphasise that they choose to be shiftless layabouts, scrounging off the system,
I dunno. I'm NOT making excuses for their actions, but it seems to me that there will be innumerable problems contributing to the rise of the 'chav lifestyle', based in many areas in society, ie family problems, education problems, work problems, community problems. Obviously this does not apply to all of the rioters, and if the current systems don't work then yes, time to reform them.
All I think we are saying is that we need to be sure that the reforms make the biggest impact, because as the article points out many social institutions will be wrangling for limited tax money to forward their own agendas.
(
Hellzapoppin, Wed 10 Aug 2011, 10:57,
Share,
Reply)
I won't dispute your arguments about the individuals involved but I will dispute your proposed solution.
The 'drop state support and give them a kick up the arse' approach has been tested before in a place called America. It didn't work. In fact, somewhat counter-intuitively, things got worse.
See Detroit, Baltimore, Atlanta, LA & countless other impoverished urban environments.
Of course over there likes of Glenn Beck on the right wing argue that this is because the state support wasn't cut enough, but I lack the time to dispute their whole belief system.
Anyway, back to work for me. Stay safe out there B3tans!!!
(, Wed 10 Aug 2011, 10:58, Share, Reply)
I've only ever seen one thing that gets a chav off his arse and turning up someplace ontime
the words 'Otherwise we'll stop your benefits'.
Suddenly they get very focussed.
(
..wil, Wed 10 Aug 2011, 11:12,
Share,
Reply)
You should drop in for chats more often you massive lurker.
(
Hellzapoppin, Wed 10 Aug 2011, 11:18,
Share,
Reply)
But...
...a great deal of them were children - no choice yet as to work or not to work. They just saw an opportunity to get free stuff and "have a laugh".
I know I wouldn't have done so when I was a child, so the discussion should be about what makes them different from me?
(
TheAlmightyBeev, Wed 10 Aug 2011, 11:02,
Share,
Reply)
Teenage parents
on benefits?
If all your mates are doing it, you do it, you always aspire to be like the big boys, simple as.
(
..wil, Wed 10 Aug 2011, 11:10,
Share,
Reply)
So the problem is that they don't have someone better to admire and emulate?
(
TheAlmightyBeev, Wed 10 Aug 2011, 11:20,
Share,
Reply)
A lot of truth in that.
Kids will always look for role models and if the best that is on hand is a feckless lowlife blathering about "Respect" - then that's what becomes their role model.
The sort of mindset they have is fashioned at a very young and impressionable age, probably from 6 or 7 years old. Most kids don't suddenly "go off the rails" when they're 16 or 17, it happens much earlier and very gradually.
(
Blackdogmanguitar is out with Fat Larry's Jazz Band on, Wed 10 Aug 2011, 11:33,
Share,
Reply)
There is some truth in that I think
when we won the rugby world cup that time for the first time ever I saw some ball games in my street that looked like the kids might actually be aspiring to get good at it, not just kick it at folks' houses & cars, and there's deffo a reason why so many think they can make it as a rap star or R&B singer.
Worked for Amy WInehouse... oh wait.
Yeh might help uf we had more of a sense that anyone can make it if they try, and gave them some kinda carrot, maybe good behaviour gets a day in a recording studio or something?
Mind you, they tried making them a youth centre with stuff like video games here one time, tuck shop, organised events, days out, supervised child care etc, they just stole all the stuff worth stealing, did drugs there 'cos there was nowt else to do once the place was stripped, then when the police got involved burnt the place down for 'grassing us up' so it ain't fucking easy to help them, I can tell you that.
(
..wil, Wed 10 Aug 2011, 11:40,
Share,
Reply)
^^^^^ this this this
I also see these people every day out for what they can get and
not giving anything back.
For the people looking for deeper reasons than criminality why
this is happening it's human nature. The same has happened for
a thousand years and it'll still happen in the year 3000 ("but we'll live
Underwater").
I think the only reason we have widespread looting without a 'cause'
is improved communications. Only now can people v quickly
organise to meet then coordinate effectively to avoid police. Without
blackberry's the looting would have stopped in tottenham.
(, Wed 10 Aug 2011, 14:55, Share, Reply)