If you linked to the original article
au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/-/newshome/10391604/you-are-selfish-senior-doctor-tells-old-mums/

it does have some numbers in, but not many. But it's a report of an interview, so that's really down to the poor quality journalism that is so prevalent in the southern hemisphere.
(Bazongaloid, Tue 4 Oct 2011, 11:42, 1 reply, 14 years ago)

Excellent . . .
didn't see that - thanks. I received the link in an email (hence my absence earlier).
Yes, some stats - and a little on the caseoad of that particular unit, which see difficult pregnancies. So I guess the sample is skewed a little . . . which I would've thought "Barry" might have taken into account.
( Mrs Legless . . . belongs to, well, you know . . . :), Tue 4 Oct 2011, 11:48, Reply)

Without the actual text of the interview
you can't possibly know what "Barry" actually thinks, the whole article is a ludicrous puff piece designed around a headline whose only intention is to grab your attention. Which it did. But it only contains about 3 or 4 quotes from the guy.
(Bazongaloid, Tue 4 Oct 2011, 11:51, Reply)

Oh yes,
the sound bites from the guy are very well picked.
But I still find it hard to believe that in the course of a typical interview those phrases would come up, so I suspect ol' Barry is a bit of a prick.
( Mrs Legless . . . belongs to, well, you know . . . :), Tue 4 Oct 2011, 11:54, Reply)

Well, since it's almost certainly an interview about his opinion on older women who have kids
I don't see why it would surprise you that they came up?
(Bazongaloid, Tue 4 Oct 2011, 12:00, Reply)

"It is selfish and self-centred of older women to have babies"
that is a judgemental statement if I ever saw one . . . why on earth would a sane, logical (and someone who should be well-mannered with the public) man come up with that in the course of an interview?

"It is riskier to have babies as an older woman"
"It is more complicated having babies as an older woman"

There are far more civilised ways to say a similar thing.
( Mrs Legless . . . belongs to, well, you know . . . :), Tue 4 Oct 2011, 12:07, Reply)

Everyone should be culled when they get to 40
it's the only way
( Naked Ape call me Caitlyn, Tue 4 Oct 2011, 12:09, Reply)

I'm really struggling to understand your point in all this
I get that you don't agree with him, that's fine, but you're trying to make out that what he said is totally unexpected.

He has done an interview with a paper about his opinions on older women having babies. His opinion is that doing so is selfish. That's it, that's his opinion. It's an opinion arrived at by doing a job that involves coming in to contact with a lot of older women who have children and experience problems.

The facts are, as you say:
"It is riskier to have babies as an older woman"
"It is more complicated having babies as an older woman"

But his opinion, based on those facts, are that it is selfish of older women to have kids. And ultimately he's fully entitled to his opinion, as you are to yours.
(Bazongaloid, Tue 4 Oct 2011, 12:13, Reply)

His interview isn't unexpected as a whole . . .
the but about being selfish is unexpected, and very unprofessional.

His opinion is hiw own, and I disagree with him (although he can speak his mind on the subject at will).

What shits me is his position in this article is of a health professional, with training in a certain area. He provides facts, but also provides an opinion which is atagonistic, rude and does very little for his standing as a doctor.

He can't prove "selfish," he can't give me a percent incidence of "selfishness," - it a judgement that doesn't belong with all the other stuff there.

He loses credibility and objectivity when he uses that sort of description.
It's also a lazy way to argue - insult the population you are informing.
( Mrs Legless . . . belongs to, well, you know . . . :), Tue 4 Oct 2011, 12:22, Reply)

Is it not rather selfish to put your own belated desire to spawn
over that of the health of your potential child? 1 in 247 for Downs isn't great odds.
( Kroney, Tue 4 Oct 2011, 12:27, Reply)

Oh for pete's sake, stop personalising it, the bloke has never meet you and wasn't thinking of you when he wrote it. He has no idea how old and haggared you are.
He's a medical profesional doing an interview, would you expect him to say "Generally, and it's not true of all older women, and I really hope you don't mind me saying, but generally (and I stress, this isn't with everyone, it's only with some (really sorry if this offends)) that it could possibly be riskier to have babies as a mature women (which doesn't mean you're ugly or insupiror, it's just the way nature is, I really hope that's OK with you, it's just my experiance, might not be true for everyone" ?
( G/PP 💩💩💩💩💩&#128, Tue 4 Oct 2011, 12:25, Reply)

For all we know, he might have said exactly that anyway
because it's not going to get reported is it?

I wasn't aware that hyppocratic oath forbade Doctors from having an opinion either.

I'm with you and Al, I really don't see the problem here.
( scarpe We Stole Bikes, Tue 4 Oct 2011, 12:28, Reply)

Opinions aren't forbidden . . .
but imposing opinions/values on patients is.

What I feel about a patient's condition is not relevant to what say/do to them.
It doesn't even come into the conversation.

Could you imagine your doctor telling how he feels about each of your medical decisions? It's basically not his business.

I saw the problem with this guy's choice of words. That is all.
( Mrs Legless . . . belongs to, well, you know . . . :), Tue 4 Oct 2011, 12:34, Reply)

I'm pretty sure that my medical decisions are exactly my doctor's buisness, as well as mine.
How would you word "It is riskier to have babies as an older woman" and "It is more complicated having babies as an older woman" ?
( G/PP 💩💩💩💩💩&#128, Tue 4 Oct 2011, 12:38, Reply)

Your decisions are his busniess - his opinions on them are not relevant . . .
but I'm happy to agree to disagree as I'm a little tired of making the same point multiple times.
( Mrs Legless . . . belongs to, well, you know . . . :), Tue 4 Oct 2011, 12:41, Reply)

But as Al already said
that's not what he has done. he hasn't said to a patient in a consultation that he thinks they are selfish. He has offered an opinion at a general level in response to a question he was asked.
( scarpe We Stole Bikes, Tue 4 Oct 2011, 12:41, Reply)

An opinion as someone who is supposed to have an educated and measured view on the subject . . .
Selfish doesn't sound particularly measured.
( Mrs Legless . . . belongs to, well, you know . . . :), Tue 4 Oct 2011, 12:43, Reply)

No, selfish is a perfect description of what is happening.
If someone knowingly makes a decision that puts their self interest above that of other people who rely on them, that is selfish.

Selfish - concerned excessively or exclusively with oneself : seeking or concentrating on one's own advantage, pleasure, or well-being without regard for others
(Bazongaloid, Tue 4 Oct 2011, 12:46, Reply)

Look, let's agree to disagree
I will not accept that sort of language is a proper way to address a difficult medical question, and makes the person sound less credible, and you don't have an issue with it.

And I need to sleep.
( Mrs Legless . . . belongs to, well, you know . . . :), Tue 4 Oct 2011, 12:50, Reply)

Surely the only sensible way to settle this
is by arm-wrestling?
( tangledupinblue hairy badge with moving eyes, Tue 4 Oct 2011, 12:57, Reply)

God no . . .
Too tired . . .

How about rock/paper/scissors?
( Mrs Legless . . . belongs to, well, you know . . . :), Tue 4 Oct 2011, 12:59, Reply)

Knifey-spooney?

( tangledupinblue hairy badge with moving eyes, Tue 4 Oct 2011, 13:10, Reply)

Of course it's relevant
a patient comes to you and says "I've got diabetes but I love eating pies and cakes, smoking 50 fags a day, and drinking a bottle of wine"

You're going to say "Ok, that's fine, your decision 100%, I have no opinion on your actions".

Or, as a sensible doctor, you would more likely say "Don't smoke or drink and eat less pies and cakes"

And they will say "But I want to keep doing all this, and if I die my 3 year old child will be an orphan"

You will continue to say "oh, fine, your decision 100%".

Or maybe "You're being a bit selfish putting your cake and pie needs before that of your child, the way you are going, you will die much sooner than you need to"
(Bazongaloid, Tue 4 Oct 2011, 12:43, Reply)

I probably wouldn't be telling anyone I'm OK with a bad decision
what I will tell them is the options for their health. If you do this, x will happen. If you do this, y will happen.

At no point will I insult someone if I disagree with them. "If you want to do the following to your body, - these are the consequences . . . "

What ultimately happens to a patient is up to them, except when something life-threatening happens.
( Mrs Legless . . . belongs to, well, you know . . . :), Tue 4 Oct 2011, 12:46, Reply)

And as Gonz said, he hasn't insulted anyone either.
He's make a generalisation. Based on risks backed up by evidence.
(Bazongaloid, Tue 4 Oct 2011, 12:50, Reply)

So selfish is a term of endearment 'round your way
then?

Joking . . .


He's made a judgement on the personalities of a population, based on evidence (clincal and his own experience). Selfish is a adjective used to describe behaviour - he shouldn't be touching that argument in public at all.

And now I really am getting to bed . . . 'night
( Mrs Legless . . . belongs to, well, you know . . . :), Tue 4 Oct 2011, 12:52, Reply)

You really should stop editting your posts after the even without noting the fact that you are editting them
It's very bad manners when trying to have a discussion with someone.
(Bazongaloid, Tue 4 Oct 2011, 13:14, Reply)

But.. but... but... PIE!

( Davros' Granddad a voice of calm reason in a world of spastics., Tue 4 Oct 2011, 12:47, Reply)

It's okay Davros, it's okay, it was only theoretical pie.
It wasn't eve theoretically nice.
(Bazongaloid, Tue 4 Oct 2011, 12:49, Reply)

Phew.

( Davros' Granddad a voice of calm reason in a world of spastics., Tue 4 Oct 2011, 12:53, Reply)