missing my point somewhat.
What I mean is even if they are not in anyway and ethnically defined group (and I have no idea if they are) they act as if they are, are treated as if they are and are discriminated against as if they are.

Racism may well not be the right word, but the behaviour is basically the same, call it what you will.
( CQ Knows the truth, all of it., Thu 20 Oct 2011, 11:42, 2 replies, latest was 14 years ago)

Simple bigotry would suffice.
People fling words arounds too readily with little or no idea what they actually mean.

It's probably a mark against me that out of all this, semantics is what's bothering me the most. Oh well.
( Kroney, Thu 20 Oct 2011, 11:43, Reply)

What confuses me
is that, broadly speaking, bigotry is frowned upon here. But we all hate "gyppos". Are they fair game?
( tangledupinblue hairy badge with moving eyes, Thu 20 Oct 2011, 11:47, Reply)

I don't hate gypsies.
I don't like their capacity for using their status of gypsies or travellers as an excuse for trying to dodge the laws of the land, though. I believe that whoever you are, if you don't want to respect the law of the land you're in, you should probably move on, rather than expecting those laws to bend around you.

I expect this is the motivation for most people, rather than bigotry.
( Kroney, Thu 20 Oct 2011, 11:50, Reply)

I think the point is that, arguably, the laws of the land have been specifically bent against them.

( CQ Knows the truth, all of it., Thu 20 Oct 2011, 11:52, Reply)

That's a bit chicken and egg though, isn't it?
Because didn't they ignore planning laws in the first place, which was then rescinded, or something?
( Kroney, Thu 20 Oct 2011, 11:58, Reply)

I meant more historically
Someone put on QOTW the other day, in response the the oft repeated "if they are travellers why don't they want to travel, LOL" that they'd probably love to, but seeing as there are no longer many , legal places for them to go, they are forced to settle in one place.

While I agree in this case they were probably in the wrong, the law in the UK has been changed several times in the last 20 years, specifically to make it harder for them to live the way they used to and probably would still choose to.

I'm just saying that it's not as simple as "abide by the law and you're OK" because sometimes they change the law.
( CQ Knows the truth, all of it., Thu 20 Oct 2011, 12:09, Reply)

Don't get me wrong
I'm not accusing you, or anyone else here, of bigotry. As I said, I find people's attitudes confusing.
My understanding is that they do have a recognised status in law though. And as CQ said, there appear to have been laws bent against them.
( tangledupinblue hairy badge with moving eyes, Thu 20 Oct 2011, 12:02, Reply)

It would appear they are.
People hate 'gypos' and it's ok because they're not brown so it's not discriminatory or ignorant at all, because my nan's mate knows someone who got mugged off a gypo and I know someone else who got sold a dodgy car off one and I know someone else who saw a dirty gypo kid who could't read, so they're all like that and we can hate them all. Ok.
( Roota zweeeeeoooooowm, Thu 20 Oct 2011, 11:52, Reply)

Basically this.
For some reason the rule 'if you judge a whole group by the action of some of it's members, you are being prejudiced', does not apply for some reason.
( CQ Knows the truth, all of it., Thu 20 Oct 2011, 11:55, Reply)

I think it's easy for more nuanced messages to get lost in the side taking and hyperbole.
I want them moved. They live 5 miles from me on an illegal site and they shouldn't be there. There was talk, that does appear to have fallen away, of moving them to a legal site that is closer to where I live. I had no problem with that. As far as I am concerned they can stay anywhere they are entitled to be. But at the moment they are not allowed to be where they are having built what they've built, so they should move.

That's as simple as it is for me. There's no 'racial' motivation, no 'fear of the travellers' or whatever other motives people seem keen to ascribe to any of us that are happy to see them go from Dale Farm.

I don't see all their supporters as mindless anarchist thugs who will move on to the next chance to have some fun regardless of the outcome of this, or mindless too rich and self important for their own good Vanessa Redgrave types, and I resent being lumped in with the undeniable number of racists/bigots/hate-alls that have invariably gathered around my side of the fence.

And I've realised that has risked looking like a rant against you, it wasn't, it was just a rant at the situation as a whole.
( scarpe We Stole Bikes, Thu 20 Oct 2011, 11:54, Reply)

Planning laws are being broken all the time by those other than gypsies
I do hope this infuriates you as much as this case does, that's all.
( Roota zweeeeeoooooowm, Thu 20 Oct 2011, 11:55, Reply)

Lol I've pulled some right stunts in my time, UP YOURS SCARPE !!!

( Light In Chains maker of the ikea sofa, Thu 20 Oct 2011, 11:58, Reply)

Actually it does, and especially when it is on such a grand scale.
Which is why I laughed my arse off when Teresa Gorman was prosecuted for making changes to her property.

But even if I drew a line between a few changes to a building or a wall in the wrong place and building a village for 80 people where it shouldn't be, it takes a certain kind of arse to jump from that to cries of 'racist!'
( scarpe We Stole Bikes, Thu 20 Oct 2011, 12:01, Reply)

Fair dooz.
You do appreciate that most people are using this to vent their gypsy hatred though, right?
People who smoke pot, people who drive a bit too fast, people who install a conservatory without asking, they're ALL breaking the law but they just don't rile us like those dirty gypos do...
( Roota zweeeeeoooooowm, Thu 20 Oct 2011, 12:04, Reply)

I do appreciate that
which is why I tried to explain exacty what I feel and why I, personally, resent being lumped in with that same group of people.

If that wasn't clear, then that's a fault with how I expressed myself.
( scarpe We Stole Bikes, Thu 20 Oct 2011, 12:05, Reply)

Yeah, I'm having a go at them, not you.

( Roota zweeeeeoooooowm, Thu 20 Oct 2011, 12:06, Reply)

most boring argument on here ever.

(PsychoChomp, Thu 20 Oct 2011, 12:07, Reply)

Ha.
Sorry for trying to be reasonable.

Go and write a 'nuff said' answer on QOTW if you really want to bring out the cunt in me.
( scarpe We Stole Bikes, Thu 20 Oct 2011, 12:08, Reply)

Apologies If I implied you were a racist Scarpe
of any one on here really. I think it all got a bit Daily mail the other day and said so, but, I don't think anyone in here is actually a racist. It's more that I get annoyed that certain kinds of prejudice seem acceptable in society as a whole.

/backpedal.
( CQ Knows the truth, all of it., Thu 20 Oct 2011, 12:15, Reply)

I fucking hate everyone
so I'm omniracist.
( the mighty badger Aphrodite, on a bar stool, by your side, Thu 20 Oct 2011, 13:02, Reply)

"Misanthropist"
But I'm pretty sure you know that, what with you being quite clever and all.
( tangledupinblue hairy badge with moving eyes, Thu 20 Oct 2011, 13:05, Reply)

My english is well rubbish
but, yeah, I just liked the invented word. Even though it doesn't actually have "hate" in it
( the mighty badger Aphrodite, on a bar stool, by your side, Thu 20 Oct 2011, 13:07, Reply)

People who are arrested for smoking pot and driving too fast
don't then tend to then complain that they are being persecuted for their beliefs, though. In general.
( the mighty badger Aphrodite, on a bar stool, by your side, Thu 20 Oct 2011, 12:12, Reply)

Free da weed! Clarkson for Prime Minister!
Er...
( tangledupinblue hairy badge with moving eyes, Thu 20 Oct 2011, 12:15, Reply)

Fucking hell
I'm all for a bit of gypsy recognition but I'm not having Clarkson running anything with people in it.
( the mighty badger Aphrodite, on a bar stool, by your side, Thu 20 Oct 2011, 12:16, Reply)

i hate him and he's ugly
but he's so arrogant i'd probably shag him anyway
( rachelswipe with a fork, Thu 20 Oct 2011, 12:26, Reply)

I sincerely hope that you recognise that those are not my opinions.

( tangledupinblue hairy badge with moving eyes, Thu 20 Oct 2011, 12:41, Reply)

They fucking do!
I've been on at least one Legalise Cannabis march in my yoof and people are forever banging on about speed cameras.
( CQ Knows the truth, all of it., Thu 20 Oct 2011, 12:16, Reply)

That's trying to get the law changed
legitimate protest. That's nothing like the same as being caught for it, and whining that you are being persecuted because of your beliefs. Is it now?
( the mighty badger Aphrodite, on a bar stool, by your side, Thu 20 Oct 2011, 12:20, Reply)

Maybe not but I have heard that done in both cases
repeatedly. stop arguing for the sake of it.
( CQ Knows the truth, all of it., Thu 20 Oct 2011, 12:34, Reply)

I'm really not arguing
I think this is an intersting discussion, because it's demonstrating what you've been saying all along, that emotive prejudices blinker public perception of actual facts in this case.
( the mighty badger Aphrodite, on a bar stool, by your side, Thu 20 Oct 2011, 12:44, Reply)

I tend to agree.
For the record, I dislike smelly hippies in general, I just dislike Daily Mail readers even more, it's an interesting interplay of prejudice.
( CQ Knows the truth, all of it., Thu 20 Oct 2011, 12:46, Reply)

There is an effort to just stop the whole caravan thing and make them live in houses
If they can buy some shitty land they should be allowed to build a site on it. Developers flout planning laws with greenbelt or protected sites all the time. it IS a way of life, they ARE an ethnic group. Lots of them do apply the proper way and are refused anyway and it's for no other reason than people want them to 'just pack it in and stop being gypos'.
( Roota zweeeeeoooooowm, Thu 20 Oct 2011, 12:24, Reply)

see, now this is the problem.
It's a way of life - no problem - but I don't see why their ethnicity is relevant, unless you're arguing they SHOULD be allowed to break laws because of their ethnicity? Because that would be rather silly.

If they want to travel - councils should support that - if they want to settle - they should go through the same channels as everyone else does that wants to build their own house. These particualr people are doing neither.

and "because sometimes a bigger boy does it and got away with it" is hardly a reasonable defence. Unless, again, you're arguing they should be treated more positively because of their ethnic group?
( the mighty badger Aphrodite, on a bar stool, by your side, Thu 20 Oct 2011, 12:29, Reply)

I do think they feel rather desperate
as avenues are closing and it's getting harder to be a traveller these days.
I agree what you say about councils should support that, but if they don't, then where are all these people to go? I'm not a gypsy and I don't know how it is, but all of this has just brought out to me how much people despise them, you know, the accompanying comments apart from your sensible opinions on planning law and it makes me feel really fucking bad, so I feel I have to defend them because it's totally not on.
( Roota zweeeeeoooooowm, Thu 20 Oct 2011, 12:36, Reply)

that is the problem.
The emotive nature of the issue has totally overridden the actual issue itself (CQ has pointed this out a lot to be fair to the man). All I'm trying to do here is point out that not everyone who believes they should be evicted is a gypsy-hating cunt. I know plenty are, and that's very troubling to me, but there are sound, and fair, legal reasons too.
( the mighty badger Aphrodite, on a bar stool, by your side, Thu 20 Oct 2011, 12:43, Reply)

But isn't the point of that article
that this situation arose in the first place because they were not being treated fairly. It's not right, but it is a common reaction that if you are mistreated by the authorities that you will have little respect for the law.
And yes, I am aware that two wrongs do not make a right.
( tangledupinblue hairy badge with moving eyes, Thu 20 Oct 2011, 12:05, Reply)

Well the laws are such that you can't just 'travel' and stop where you like these days
And one has to wonder when they were sold that shitty piece of crappy land right next to where they'd already built a site, what the fuck the authorities THOUGHT they wanted it for. Of course they wanted it for more caravans. And why not give them bloody permission? I don't see anyone wanting the land. A conservatory in my sunlight is more of a nuisance than some gypsies down the road, but they're never retrospectivally refused and demolished. From whom did they buy the land?
I don't blame them for wanting to at least stay in their trailers and live together the way they do. The alternative is being separated in shitty flats with hypodermics on the stairs. And can you imagine the NIMBYs when some of these 'gypos' that they're so happy to have seen evicted from the site DO accept a council house and then instead of some gypos in a field quite nearby, they'll have them for neighbours, and then their children might catch lice and illiteracy from the gypsy kids. They haven't thought this through. They're getting turfed out of a field, not exterminated, sorry!
( Roota zweeeeeoooooowm, Thu 20 Oct 2011, 12:14, Reply)

Erm, I should point out
that conservatories are regularly retrospectively refused and demolished. Hence why you need proof of planning permission to sell a house with one on. If you changed the windows in my flat without planning permission the council will have your balls on a platter. It is most catergorically not just because they are gypsies
( the mighty badger Aphrodite, on a bar stool, by your side, Thu 20 Oct 2011, 12:18, Reply)

I believe it is.
And the way in which people refer to gypsies and their 'lifestyle choice' tells me so.
( Roota zweeeeeoooooowm, Thu 20 Oct 2011, 12:25, Reply)

That's your right
however, courts, luckily, don't work on prejudice. And many, many courts made this decision, not Daily Mail readers.
( the mighty badger Aphrodite, on a bar stool, by your side, Thu 20 Oct 2011, 12:32, Reply)

And there couldn't possibly be another agenda?
There could, conceivably.
( Roota zweeeeeoooooowm, Thu 20 Oct 2011, 12:39, Reply)

Of course there could.
This is why we have different opinions. I think that the repeated legal analysis would suggest that this group of people are cheating chancers who should be evicted for systematically and repeatedly breaking the law, and the fact that they happen to be gypsies is irrelevant. You believe that because gypies are systematically persecuted in this country and other countries, it is right to stand up for them, because someone should, and this case you believe the eviction itself is persecution.

Without access to court documents, it's impossible to know which of us is correct, as every single news source will have a bias. I genuinely think it's an interesting piece of intelligent debate, to be honest.
( the mighty badger Aphrodite, on a bar stool, by your side, Thu 20 Oct 2011, 12:57, Reply)

Conservatories are a piece of piss to obtain under gpdo, unless there's been an art 4 withdrawal

( Light In Chains maker of the ikea sofa, Thu 20 Oct 2011, 12:26, Reply)

not in green belt or conservation belt they fucking aren't, trust me.
Now - an argument about whether that land should actually be green belt is a more contentious issue, but right now it is.
( the mighty badger Aphrodite, on a bar stool, by your side, Thu 20 Oct 2011, 12:31, Reply)

That'd be the article 4 withdrawal of the gdpo, irrespective the vast majority of housing stock isn't affected by coming under a deemed conservation area, Green Belt, or indeed being listed.
Everyone has a god damn right to a upvc conservatory.
( Light In Chains maker of the ikea sofa, Thu 20 Oct 2011, 12:38, Reply)

YEEHAW.
YESSIR. This is my conservatory. There are many other conservatories like this, but this one is mine.
( the mighty badger Aphrodite, on a bar stool, by your side, Thu 20 Oct 2011, 12:46, Reply)

Fair do's, in my case it's more that "institutionalised simple bigotry" does not trip off the tongue
It's like how I tend to say I'm vegetarian because it's quicker than saying I sometimes eat fish and possible, in special circumstances, meat about twice a year. Yes, yes, I know this makes me not a vegetarian but there's not a simple word people readily understand.
( CQ Knows the truth, all of it., Thu 20 Oct 2011, 11:49, Reply)

"hypocrite"
:)
( tangledupinblue hairy badge with moving eyes, Thu 20 Oct 2011, 12:14, Reply)

"lazy"
would be closer. I keep well off the vegetarian high horse, for this reason and others.
( CQ Knows the truth, all of it., Thu 20 Oct 2011, 12:26, Reply)

Racism in law is not just about the dictionary definintion of a race
it's discrimination due to colour, race, nationality or ethnic or national origins.
If it was purely based on the biological definition of race killing a french man for talking funny wouldn't be a racially motivated crime.
(PsychoChomp, Thu 20 Oct 2011, 11:44, Reply)

Or anywhere near as much fun.
sorry
( CQ Knows the truth, all of it., Thu 20 Oct 2011, 11:50, Reply)