Yes, of course it is progress.
The grip of fear which kept the church as the mightiest power in Christendom has collapsed: now a young person attending church is an oddity rather than the norm. In western Europe organised religion amongst ethnic natives is in a large decline. Finally, it seems, people have the sense to require evidence of such a preposterous notion as religion before believing in it, and don’t, when this evidence is not forthcoming. The problem is that we are the only part of the world in which this is so. In the US (where they really should know better), ignorance and the denial of science has become a badge of honour. If you declare your ‘faith’ people think it’s great, rather than you being a bit simple as we do here. Not believing in everything you are told unless it can be supported is huge progress.

All ‘empires’ are cyclic, states expand and band together, then disintegrate. It is the turn of the Chinese once again, followed by India (their first go, because they have traditionally not been empire builders). We will be seen in precisely the same way as the Romans, apart from maybe a bit more bent. Gladiatorial games were excellent and we should have them now, like in The Running Man.
( Monty Boyce, My cheese game is strong, Tue 19 Jun 2012, 10:25, 3 replies, latest was 13 years ago)

so now you're generalising about the states too?
i know they have a fundamental minority but ffs
(Quintno EXPERIMENT RUINED CANCELLED, LEFT 4EVER, Tue 19 Jun 2012, 10:26, Reply)

If you see the electoral campaign of their presidential candidates
you will see that it is not that much of a minority; pandering to the Christian right is considered a political necessity.
( Monty Boyce, My cheese game is strong, Tue 19 Jun 2012, 10:31, Reply)

has obama been doing that with his pro-gay marriage stance then?
i did wonder what he was up to
(Quintno EXPERIMENT RUINED CANCELLED, LEFT 4EVER, Tue 19 Jun 2012, 10:35, Reply)

Monty is refering to the republicans
as i'm sure you well know
( Naked Ape call me Caitlyn, Tue 19 Jun 2012, 10:36, Reply)

who are not in power
and he said 'presidential candidates', and i'm sure he's right. in the past the democrats also pandered to the christian right, but times they are a changin'
(Quintno EXPERIMENT RUINED CANCELLED, LEFT 4EVER, Tue 19 Jun 2012, 10:38, Reply)

He still has to make Christian noises or get nowhere.

( Monty Boyce, My cheese game is strong, Tue 19 Jun 2012, 10:40, Reply)

name one

(Quintno EXPERIMENT RUINED CANCELLED, LEFT 4EVER, Tue 19 Jun 2012, 10:43, Reply)

Obsama is totally muslamic and was born in Kenya and has a ray gun
ask Donald Trump
( Naked Ape call me Caitlyn, Tue 19 Jun 2012, 10:45, Reply)

Trump has the proof
and he's keeping it safe, underneath his toupee.
( b3th Not shit. Not mod., Tue 19 Jun 2012, 10:47, Reply)

Have five:


From the Christmas Tree lighting ceremony in Washington on Dec. 2, 2011

"More than 2,000 years ago, a child was born to two faithful travelers who could find rest only in a stable, among the cattle and the sheep. But this was not just any child. Christ's birth made the angels rejoice and attracted shepherds and kings from afar. He was a manifestation of God's love for us.


"And he grew up to become a leader with a servant's heart who taught us a message as simple as it is powerful: that we should love God, and love our neighbor as ourselves. That teaching has come to encircle the globe. No matter who we are, or where we come from, or how we worship, it's a message that can unite all of us on this holiday season."

From an Easter Prayer Breakfast on April 19, 2011 at the White House

"I wanted to host this breakfast for a simple reason -- because as busy as we are, as many tasks as pile up, during this season, we are reminded that there's something about the resurrection -- something about the resurrection of our savior, Jesus Christ, that puts everything else in perspective.

"We all live in the hustle and bustle of our work. And everybody in this room has weighty responsibilities, from leading churches and denominations, to helping to administer important government programs, to shaping our culture in various ways. And I admit that my plate has been full as well. The inbox keeps on accumulating.

"But then comes Holy Week. The triumph of Palm Sunday. The humility of Jesus washing the disciples' feet. His slow march up that hill, and the pain and the scorn and the shame of the cross. And we're reminded that in that moment, he took on the sins of the world -- past, present and future -- and he extended to us that unfathomable gift of grace and salvation through his death and resurrection."

From the National Prayer Breakfast on Feb. 3, 2011

"And like all of us, my faith journey has had its twists and turns. It hasn't always been a straight line. I have thanked God for the joys of parenthood and Michelle's willingness to put up with me. In the wake of failures and disappointments I've questioned what God had in store for me and been reminded that God's plans for us may not always match our own short-sighted desires.

"And let me tell you, these past two years, they have deepened my faith. The presidency has a funny way of making a person feel the need to pray. Abe Lincoln said, as many of you know, 'I have been driven to my knees many times by the overwhelming conviction that I had no place else to go.'"

From an Easter Prayer Breakfast on April 6, 2010 at the White House

"For even after the passage of 2,000 years, we can still picture the moment in our mind's eye. The young man from Nazareth marched through Jerusalem; object of scorn and derision and abuse and torture by an empire. The agony of crucifixion amid the cries of thieves. The discovery, just three days later, that would forever alter our world -- that the Son of Man was not to be found in his tomb and that Jesus Christ had risen.

"We are awed by the grace he showed even to those who would have killed him. We are thankful for the sacrifice he gave for the sins of humanity. And we glory in the promise of redemption in the resurrection."

From the National Prayer Breakfast on Feb. 6, 2009

"I was not raised in a particularly religious household. I had a father who was born a Muslim but became an atheist, grandparents who were non-practicing Methodists and Baptists, and a mother who was skeptical of organized religion, even as she was the kindest, most spiritual person I've ever known. She was the one who taught me as a child to love, and to understand, and to do unto others as I would want done.

"I didn't become a Christian until many years later, when I moved to the South Side of Chicago after college. It happened not because of indoctrination or a sudden revelation, but because I spent month after month working with church folks who simply wanted to help neighbors who were down on their luck no matter what they looked like, or where they came from, or who they prayed to. It was on those streets, in those neighborhoods, that I first heard God's spirit beckon me. It was there that I felt called to a higher purpose -- His purpose."
( Monty Boyce, My cheese game is strong, Tue 19 Jun 2012, 11:01, Reply)

the fuck is this shit?
do you have a source?
(Quintno EXPERIMENT RUINED CANCELLED, LEFT 4EVER, Tue 19 Jun 2012, 11:03, Reply)

Yes, I call it 'Google'.

( Monty Boyce, My cheese game is strong, Tue 19 Jun 2012, 11:03, Reply)

yes, gogle is a search engine that presents various results
where did you copy and paste all that from?
(Quintno EXPERIMENT RUINED CANCELLED, LEFT 4EVER, Tue 19 Jun 2012, 11:05, Reply)

Can't remember but the dates of each speech and its context are listed,
cross reference them yourself if you think they are made up.
( Monty Boyce, My cheese game is strong, Tue 19 Jun 2012, 11:10, Reply)

whose national prayer is that though?
some right wing preacher addressing a congregation? a tv show? what?
(Quintno EXPERIMENT RUINED CANCELLED, LEFT 4EVER, Tue 19 Jun 2012, 11:18, Reply)

Red or brown? LOL!!!!!11

( tangledupinblue hairy badge with moving eyes, Tue 19 Jun 2012, 11:05, Reply)

lol

(Quintno EXPERIMENT RUINED CANCELLED, LEFT 4EVER, Tue 19 Jun 2012, 11:09, Reply)

Also, fuck off:
www.gallup.com/poll/141044/americans-church-attendance-inches-2010.aspx

Gallup polls confirming US church attendance is rising.

If you really want I will also get you ones showing UK attendance declining, if you like.
( Monty Boyce, My cheese game is strong, Tue 19 Jun 2012, 10:39, Reply)

attending church doesn't mean that politicians are still pandering to religion
nor does it mean that any of those people are less temperate than the other americans
(Quintno EXPERIMENT RUINED CANCELLED, LEFT 4EVER, Tue 19 Jun 2012, 10:43, Reply)

Hmmm, missmatched sample sizes/dates make me doubt the 2010 data.

(PsychoChomp, Tue 19 Jun 2012, 10:43, Reply)

Good practice data analysis right here ^^

( Naked Ape call me Caitlyn, Tue 19 Jun 2012, 10:46, Reply)

spreadsheet lolz

( Monty Boyce, My cheese game is strong, Tue 19 Jun 2012, 10:56, Reply)

But the point of faith is belief without proof.
If someone proved that god exists, it wouldn't be a matter of faith to belive in him. No-one says "I have faith that gravity is real" because we know it *is*.

Organised religion, of all kinds, is always run by one or two power-mad despots at the top, which is why it will always be corruptible.
( b3th Not shit. Not mod., Tue 19 Jun 2012, 10:32, Reply)

Precisely: that is fundamentally what is wrong with religious belief.
The problems start when such ludicrous beliefs start making people deny things like dinosaurs which are even easier to prove the existence of than gravity.
( Monty Boyce, My cheese game is strong, Tue 19 Jun 2012, 10:34, Reply)

i have never in all my life heard anyone seriously attempt to disprove the existence of dinosaurs
where do you get this shit monty?
(Quintno EXPERIMENT RUINED CANCELLED, LEFT 4EVER, Tue 19 Jun 2012, 10:45, Reply)

It's not my fault you are ill-informed.
There is an argument in circulation that dinosaur bones have been planted in the ground by God to test the faith of his people. What sounds to you like the stupidest shit you have ever heard is actually taught to children in some US schools.
( Monty Boyce, My cheese game is strong, Tue 19 Jun 2012, 10:46, Reply)

I thought it was just evolution they had a problem with?
I love the argument "We can't be descended from monkeys, because monkeys still exist"
I like to counter that with "I can't be descended from my grandparents because my cousins still exist"
( b3th Not shit. Not mod., Tue 19 Jun 2012, 10:49, Reply)

Your cousins are monkeys?

( tangledupinblue hairy badge with moving eyes, Tue 19 Jun 2012, 10:51, Reply)

Also, monkeys are no relation to us
we are evolved from Apes
( Naked Ape call me Caitlyn, Tue 19 Jun 2012, 10:53, Reply)

Well
Some of us are evolved.
( b3th Not shit. Not mod., Tue 19 Jun 2012, 10:53, Reply)

Hey, i shed my fur and I am now erect

( Naked Ape call me Caitlyn, Tue 19 Jun 2012, 10:55, Reply)

I bet you are, you filthy boy.

( b3th Not shit. Not mod., Tue 19 Jun 2012, 10:55, Reply)

which schools monty?
show me one school where this is taught please and i will eat my words, prove to me that this isn't some daily mail equivalent hyberbole bollocks and i'll apologise
(Quintno EXPERIMENT RUINED CANCELLED, LEFT 4EVER, Tue 19 Jun 2012, 10:55, Reply)

I have heard this too and I don't read the Daily Mail.
You really shouldn't underestimate how stupid some Americans are.
( girlinthehole, Tue 19 Jun 2012, 10:58, Reply)

yes I have 'heard' this as well, doesn't make it 'fact'

(Quintno EXPERIMENT RUINED CANCELLED, LEFT 4EVER, Tue 19 Jun 2012, 10:58, Reply)

See my addendum!

( girlinthehole, Tue 19 Jun 2012, 11:00, Reply)

see your pudenda?

( Monty Boyce, My cheese game is strong, Tue 19 Jun 2012, 11:12, Reply)

If you ask nicely.

( girlinthehole, Tue 19 Jun 2012, 11:14, Reply)

Tennessee:
www.washingtonpost.com/national/law-allows-creationism-to-be-taught-in-tenn-public-schools/2012/04/11/gIQAAjqxAT_story.html

Indiana: www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/01/26/indiana-senate-creationism-teaching-bill_n_1234185.html
( tangledupinblue hairy badge with moving eyes, Tue 19 Jun 2012, 11:02, Reply)

nothing about denying dinosaurs there
i disagree with teaching creationism and intelligent design, but if those states have a higher than average rate of christian fundies and thats what they want to teach, they need learning and will catch up with the rest of us eventually
(Quintno EXPERIMENT RUINED CANCELLED, LEFT 4EVER, Tue 19 Jun 2012, 11:06, Reply)

He mentions it too.
doctor.claudemariottini.com/2008/01/dinosaurs-and-christian-faith.html
( girlinthehole, Tue 19 Jun 2012, 11:14, Reply)

a 2008 article that refernces events in the 80s?
you have totally blown my argument out of the water, all americans are clearly right-wing christian nutjobs who don't believe in dinosaurs
(Quintno EXPERIMENT RUINED CANCELLED, LEFT 4EVER, Tue 19 Jun 2012, 11:17, Reply)

No one is saying that, you cock.

( Monty Boyce, My cheese game is strong, Tue 19 Jun 2012, 11:19, Reply)

just your dad then?
is that how come your life is such a mess? did his religious beliefs fuck you up?
(Quintno EXPERIMENT RUINED CANCELLED, LEFT 4EVER, Tue 19 Jun 2012, 11:23, Reply)

What? Right wing American creationism has become worse since then, not better.

( girlinthehole, Tue 19 Jun 2012, 11:19, Reply)

Your man appears to be made from straw, here.

( Kroney, Tue 19 Jun 2012, 11:19, Reply)

I've seen it taught
Its ridiculous and all stems from the fact that they do not believe the earth is old enough for Dinosaurs to have really existed.
( Peej, Tue 19 Jun 2012, 11:10, Reply)

where? in a real school or sunday school?
did they also present evolution as an alternative or was it one-sided?
(Quintno EXPERIMENT RUINED CANCELLED, LEFT 4EVER, Tue 19 Jun 2012, 11:11, Reply)

Dude.
All I've said is that Christianity is on the rise in the US, and that politicians have to reference this or they will struggle. FFS this is true.

My own father is a Christian minister who lives in Virginia. If you really like I can get you a sample of attendance stats from his own fucking church.

Or you could just shut up.
( Monty Boyce, My cheese game is strong, Tue 19 Jun 2012, 11:13, Reply)

no you didn't, you said that politicians pandered to the right-wing christians
i agreed to a point but said obama wasn't doing that so much, things are moving in the right direction there

i couldn't give a flip about your dad, no offence, he has fuck all to do with american politics or education
(Quintno EXPERIMENT RUINED CANCELLED, LEFT 4EVER, Tue 19 Jun 2012, 11:15, Reply)

Yes he does.
He's a minister at the College of William and Mary in Williamsburg. he is both a professional Christian and an educator in the so-called bible belt of the US. How much more relevant do you need?
( Monty Boyce, My cheese game is strong, Tue 19 Jun 2012, 11:18, Reply)

i dunno, he's not a senator or shit

(Quintno EXPERIMENT RUINED CANCELLED, LEFT 4EVER, Tue 19 Jun 2012, 11:21, Reply)

YOLO Q, YOLO.

( Monty Boyce, My cheese game is strong, Tue 19 Jun 2012, 11:24, Reply)

Quiten is trying in vain to contest documented fact.
I wouldn't bother, it's got me nowhere.
( Monty Boyce, My cheese game is strong, Tue 19 Jun 2012, 11:12, Reply)

Could you just clear up the debate about the relative sizes of George Formby and his banjolele instead?

( tangledupinblue hairy badge with moving eyes, Tue 19 Jun 2012, 11:13, Reply)

you haven't provided any documented facts

(Quintno EXPERIMENT RUINED CANCELLED, LEFT 4EVER, Tue 19 Jun 2012, 11:14, Reply)

Those quotes from Obama are not fictitious.
The Gallup polls (whilst perhaps not cast iron) do not reflect the decling in church attendance reported in this country, do they?

Please give this up, it's boring now.
( Monty Boyce, My cheese game is strong, Tue 19 Jun 2012, 11:15, Reply)

they were obama quotes?
why didn't you say so?
(Quintno EXPERIMENT RUINED CANCELLED, LEFT 4EVER, Tue 19 Jun 2012, 11:21, Reply)

He was talking about presidents having to pander to the right wing Christians
you said something about that explaining Obama's gay left wing marriage agenda or some sarcastic shit like that, he said Obama had to make Christian noises, you said name one, he listed those quotes.

THe conversational thread isn't that hard to follow if you're not being purposefully dense.
( Kroney, Tue 19 Jun 2012, 11:23, Reply)

i'm all over the shop

(Quintno EXPERIMENT RUINED CANCELLED, LEFT 4EVER, Tue 19 Jun 2012, 11:24, Reply)

I heard a porn star describing her job as being like a Gladiator for the modern empires.
Interesting thought.
(PsychoChomp, Tue 19 Jun 2012, 10:34, Reply)

POIDH

( Monty Boyce, My cheese game is strong, Tue 19 Jun 2012, 10:35, Reply)

It was an interview with Sasha Grey, but I'm not going to be googling that at work to be honest.

(PsychoChomp, Tue 19 Jun 2012, 10:36, Reply)

Good thinking.

( Monty Boyce, My cheese game is strong, Tue 19 Jun 2012, 10:41, Reply)

thin wan
( Naked Ape call me Caitlyn, Tue 19 Jun 2012, 10:43, Reply)

Affleck and Damon's zzzzzzzzzzzzz

( Monty Boyce, My cheese game is strong, Tue 19 Jun 2012, 10:47, Reply)

Sasha Grey is great
Gorgeous, intelligent, filthy and interesting.

I'm a big fan.
(dozers, do fuck off ur a nob m8, Tue 19 Jun 2012, 10:50, Reply)

And that vid where she sprays milk out of her arse in to the other girls mouth and vice versa was awesome
A real modern day piece of contemporary art. I watched that one more than once I can tell you.
( Peej, Tue 19 Jun 2012, 11:12, Reply)

She has a point. I mean, she probably gets a lot of thumbs up.

( scarpe We Stole Bikes, Tue 19 Jun 2012, 10:47, Reply)

Likes

( sporters I’m sincerely gratitude to you, Tue 19 Jun 2012, 10:48, Reply)

This post gets one from me

( Monty Boyce, My cheese game is strong, Tue 19 Jun 2012, 10:49, Reply)

seen plenty of Swordmen.

(PsychoChomp, Tue 19 Jun 2012, 10:49, Reply)

Plus 'vagina' means scabbard.

( Monty Boyce, My cheese game is strong, Tue 19 Jun 2012, 10:50, Reply)

all the way to the wrist

( b3th Not shit. Not mod., Tue 19 Jun 2012, 10:50, Reply)

hahahaha!
EW
( sporters I’m sincerely gratitude to you, Tue 19 Jun 2012, 10:56, Reply)