Hmmmm
Whatever the causes and effects of the hijab, banning it is telling people what to wear. That's not cool in my book. There's a principle, and violating it sets a precedent.
(Fancy a weekend on my Raymondo Luxury Yacht?, Tue 26 Jan 2010, 20:28, 1 reply, 16 years ago)

That's easy for you to say.
You're male.
( girlinthehole, Tue 26 Jan 2010, 20:31, Reply)

You have a point
more than most here I reckon. However the problem is primarily in the religious culture - that's what should be tackled. No one is actually forcing those French women to wear burkas, unless they are using illegal coercion.

I do accept that the situation is fucked and wince whenever I see that headgear.
(Fancy a weekend on my Raymondo Luxury Yacht?, Tue 26 Jan 2010, 20:35, Reply)

There is probably both illegal coercion and the fear of being shunned by their
family and everything they know that is also a type of coercion.
(MichaelS wasn't picked again, Tue 26 Jan 2010, 20:39, Reply)

There are plenty of women
who willingly wear the veil as they believe it is right and proper for them to do so. I disagree entirely with them and think they are fucking retards, but if they want to do that then they should be allowed.
(Bazongaloid, Tue 26 Jan 2010, 20:46, Reply)

Ignorance is bliss for you.

( girlinthehole, Tue 26 Jan 2010, 20:49, Reply)

It's like you're reading a totally different reply to the one i've written.
I'll say it a third time.

You have the right to wear what you want. There are many muslim women who simply will not appear in public without a full veil, so by banning the veil you are effectively putting them under house arrest. Your views and my views about the stupidity of this has no relevance to their right to wear whatever they want to.
(Bazongaloid, Tue 26 Jan 2010, 20:53, Reply)

So we let it be then?

( girlinthehole, Tue 26 Jan 2010, 21:02, Reply)

If they want to go for it but if they do it because they know no difference or are in fear
then they are not able to make a free choice. The "honor" killings conducted by some fanatical family members are just a sympton of the situation.
(MichaelS wasn't picked again, Wed 27 Jan 2010, 1:14, Reply)

They are being forced, albiet surreptiously.
The wearing of the burka is not a religious indoctrination but a cultural one, the same as infibulation and shaving heads for the Hassidic women.
( girlinthehole, Tue 26 Jan 2010, 20:39, Reply)

Could say that about an infinite amount of things
The world is fucked, always has been.
(Fancy a weekend on my Raymondo Luxury Yacht?, Tue 26 Jan 2010, 21:04, Reply)

Oh don't be so ridiculous
lots of people do lots of things I find fucking disgusting, such as buying the Daily Mail, or voting for Boris Johnson, but the whole point of a free society is that these people can do that if they so choose.

Banning people from wearing a veil has fuck all to do with protection of women, it's an outright attack on freedom of expression. If they wanted to protect women from oppression there are lots of other things they could do. This is not one of them and will almost certainly lead to women, who previously could go out and interact with people whilst wearing their veils, being effectively locked up at home.
(Bazongaloid, Tue 26 Jan 2010, 20:40, Reply)

damn you Al
you are a gigantic arsebandit and an argumentative bastard, but you do speak sense when it counts
( Vipros. clever got me this far, then tricky got me in, Tue 26 Jan 2010, 20:41, Reply)

Like you would know sense
you hob-breaking-cheese-eating-child-abuser
(Bazongaloid, Tue 26 Jan 2010, 20:44, Reply)

^THIS
Poor Blousie, she no politician but she drunk and hate wimmins opreshun, quite rightly. faredeplay.

*am I turning into gonz while he's ill?*
(Fancy a weekend on my Raymondo Luxury Yacht?, Tue 26 Jan 2010, 21:44, Reply)

Bollocks.
You have no idea what you are talking about

I am no idealist, theologian or intellectual but one thing I do know about is women's rights and the history of female repression so shut up right now or I will get very angry.
( girlinthehole, Tue 26 Jan 2010, 20:47, Reply)

No
you're wrong.

I just said, the ban has nothing to do with womens rights and oppression and will only have a negative effect in this regard. The right to wear a full burkha, or whatever the fuck you want to wear is essential to any society that calls itself free.

The fact that the burkha is usually a symbol of what I would consider stupid misguided individuals makes no difference what so ever. This ban is not a good idea.
(Bazongaloid, Tue 26 Jan 2010, 20:51, Reply)

I never said the ban WAS a good idea.
Please pay attention.
( girlinthehole, Tue 26 Jan 2010, 20:52, Reply)

"Any act that represses women should be banned.
I have never read the Koran but I'm pretty sure it doesn't tell women to cover up so radically."

So to follow your logic, you think that because they cover up it's oppression of women and therefore should be banned.
(Bazongaloid, Tue 26 Jan 2010, 20:54, Reply)

Yes but I'm drunk and I'm posting things in the heat of the moment.
I stand by my first statement but I also realise that you can't change things overnight by a blanket ban on everyone's religious indoctrination.

Just agreeing that things are wrong but you accept their right to be indoctrinated is a cop out.

Edit - You can never have the same feeling of anger to this as you will never have to worry about this being an issue for you.
( girlinthehole, Tue 26 Jan 2010, 21:00, Reply)

Pip pip

(Fancy a weekend on my Raymondo Luxury Yacht?, Tue 26 Jan 2010, 21:06, Reply)

the way I look at
is that most of those women will need to leave the house anyway (since their husbands sure as fuck aren't going to be doing the shopping, picking up the kids and tidying the garden) so in fact they will still get out and about. And maybe now they'll have the option of face-to-face contact, and possibly the glimmering of a realisation that heaven hasn't struck them dead, and that maybe, just maybe all those pretty French woman with their uncovered hair and faces and lives and jobs and careers might have something right
( Amberl was stripey and dominated Europe, Tue 26 Jan 2010, 21:08, Reply)

Yes
yes this is exactly what will happen. Absolutely. The fact that they've been walking around up until now seeing exactly the same things and yet they still choose to follow their religion in the way they do will magically change just because of the ban.

I really am trying to make this point as clearly as I can, this ban is not going to have any effect on women who choose or are coerced into wearing a burkha, they will still be in that situation. If you strongly believe this is wrong then you should look into how you can prevent this form happening, but I strongly believe that anyone should have the right to wear whatever they want to wear out in public if they so choose.
(Bazongaloid, Tue 26 Jan 2010, 21:40, Reply)

I'm not saying they will magically change
I'm saying that when they realised they're not being smited by God, sexually assaulted by men for showing a face or anything of the sort, that it might have some positive impact.
( Amberl was stripey and dominated Europe, Tue 26 Jan 2010, 22:06, Reply)