that's another thing
raising achievement, and making it acceptable to be gifted and talented, without having to field accusations of elitism
( Amberl was stripey and dominated Europe, Mon 23 Aug 2010, 15:42, 1 reply, 16 years ago)

the issues with that are more to do with attitude of peers though
I think so, anyway
( Vipros. clever got me this far, then tricky got me in, Mon 23 Aug 2010, 15:45, Reply)

it's a class issue
in my own experience, private school, and well off primary schools (leafy green Surrey) value achievement and reward it. Everywhere else people are too busy trying to control the uncontrollable kids, teach the unteachable to care a) about raising achievement in the top 20% or b) protecting them from other kids
( Amberl was stripey and dominated Europe, Mon 23 Aug 2010, 15:46, Reply)

I think the term 'uncontrollable kids'
is questionable. I wouldn't have said that a month ago, but I've just been teaching some that were effectively described as such. With support they achieved some pretty good stuff and more importantly, it helped with confidence, which was a huge issue with most of them (bad behaviour was the way it manifested).

I was pretty shocked at how bright they were when they applied themselves
( Citizen Cavy Admires your passion for conformity, Mon 23 Aug 2010, 15:50, Reply)

How many children were you teaching?
In what environment, what was the ethnic division?

Nobody thinks uncontrollable means stupid. Often it is the bright kids in particular. All you need though especially in primary education is one or two seriously impossible children and you have a classroom control situation on your hands. One or two students who if you dedicate all your time will improve. Leaving the crowded classroom of 30 other children with no teaching or support.
( Amberl was stripey and dominated Europe, Mon 23 Aug 2010, 15:55, Reply)

9, FE college, all white (and all between 17 and 19)
I think a range of subjects means greater engagement which reduces the chances of behaviour problems. There are some tricky ones, but what exactly would you do with them?
( Citizen Cavy Admires your passion for conformity, Mon 23 Aug 2010, 15:58, Reply)

You see there
you already have a reason why these kids are different. 17-19 means they've chosen to stay in education, and attempt to get more. Already they're different from the 16 year old who has left with no qualifications and who is functionally illiterate. FE courses generally demand a minimum however small that is of exam grades- you're nowhere near the bottom of the barrel yet.

Buying into the idea of a huge range of subjects is merely building on an idea that somehow the human race has changed and ADHD has become the standard, a short attention span is natural and should be catered to.

Sadly as you've pointed out, the real problems are the uncontrollable ones- for whatever reason. Occasionally genuine behaviour problems, far more often a need for attention and validation. There are several programs being pioneered on these lines, and there are short term measures that can be taken against them, often focusing on attacking prestige/validation of others but the main problem is yet again money
( Amberl was stripey and dominated Europe, Mon 23 Aug 2010, 16:05, Reply)

No, none of these kids were in school
they were on various control orders, most had no GCSEs, often they'd been kicked out of school and just never gone back and would have been considered as uncontrollable.
( Citizen Cavy Admires your passion for conformity, Mon 23 Aug 2010, 16:09, Reply)

I think the point still stands
9 (far smaller than any class I've ever attended, private or not) of non-racially mixed teenagers who to some extent have chosen to attend
( Amberl was stripey and dominated Europe, Mon 23 Aug 2010, 16:14, Reply)

so what would you do with the problem kids in a class?
kick them out? that just makes for more social problems. Put them in a special class (which is effectively what we had)? - it's bloody expensive and very very difficult to run. At least in a mixed class you have exemplars.

I have to say, being a kid who was bright at school and well behaved I used to have similar opinions, having worked in the field, though, there is so much potential if you can convince the problem kids that education is worth it
( Citizen Cavy Admires your passion for conformity, Mon 23 Aug 2010, 16:18, Reply)

Perform the mandatory weeding
first of all. Kids with genuine severe educational and mental problems shouldn't be in mainstream education. It's harsh but until we've solved the other problems, it helps neither them nor anyone else.
Second a more sophisticated way of determining the factors that cause bad behaviour. Abuse for example.
Third when you've taken out the above factors you're left with a small core of children who not only actively do not learn, but impede everyone around them. And in those cases I think you have to do what's best for the majority. Isolate the others, pay an extra teacher to deal with them and attempt to reintroduce them at regular intervels.

I'm not speaking from the vantage point of a bright kid at school who thinks the bad kids should be punished, though if you ask me that hypothetical bright kid has a point. I'm speaking from the viewpoint of someone who is fed up that we continually sacrifice the many for the few
( Amberl was stripey and dominated Europe, Mon 23 Aug 2010, 16:25, Reply)

I have to respectfully disagree
I'd form more arguments, but my typing hand hurts and this damn edge of screen thing is annoying.

We should have another thread and talk about cake or something. But only in small sentences
( Citizen Cavy Admires your passion for conformity, Mon 23 Aug 2010, 16:28, Reply)

mmm cake
lemon drizzle cake?

You should make althegeordie join the discussion. He'd call me a facist cunt who doesn't care about the needy.
( Amberl was stripey and dominated Europe, Mon 23 Aug 2010, 16:34, Reply)

my mrs makes the best lemon drizzle cake in the world
I hope you get to try it someday
( Vipros. clever got me this far, then tricky got me in, Mon 23 Aug 2010, 16:43, Reply)

this makes my mouth water :(

( Amberl was stripey and dominated Europe, Mon 23 Aug 2010, 16:47, Reply)