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# Yes but I understood it to be a fundamental of Islam.
(I helped save b3ta! Je suis un vagabond is an unfunny, up your own arse middle class knob, Mon 17 May 2010, 11:23, archived)
# I doubt it, I have worked with plenty of practising Muslims who shake hands with women.
I imagine it is the same rule as in Judaism.

It's all down to interpretation at the end of the day.

You can argue that it is a fundamental of Christianity to believe that the world was created in 6 days by God, that Eve was created from one of Adam's ribs, that Moses parted the red sea and saw someone with thrush or something like that, burning bush etc.

However, you don't have to believe that to be a Christian as far as I am concerned.
(I helped save b3ta! Redsushi! Whoop! Whoop! Yes, that one!, Mon 17 May 2010, 11:29, archived)
# Because picking and choosing the best bits from a religion is obviously the way to go
I'm with Doug Stanhope on this one. When someone says "I'm a Catholic but I don't believe in all the bad stuff", then they're not a Catholic. It's like saying you're a heroin addict, having never taken heroin.
(I helped save b3ta! emvee cruor deo cruoris, Mon 17 May 2010, 11:31, archived)
# All of this ^^^
(I helped save b3ta! boris the spider, Mon 17 May 2010, 11:34, archived)
# This whole picking and choosing thing is a bullshit argument
That's like saying that you're not a rational person if you've ever been in love, or danced, or put yourself in harms way for someone else.

If you can't see a grey area, you're just as extremist as the extremists on the other side of the coin.
(I helped save b3ta! gronkpan @vomitinglarry.bsky.social, Mon 17 May 2010, 11:34, archived)
# eh?
surely the argument is that if you believe the bible (say) to be the word of god, you have to accept *everything* in the bible -- who the fuck are you to try and tell god what he should and shouldn't have told you? by extension, if you believe a part of the bible to be the word of god, what makes the rest of the bible *not* the word of god? if i believe the ten commandments to be from god, what makes me believe that the rest of the laws in exodus and deuteronomy *not* to be from god? what gives me the utter arrogance to do so?

nothing -- if i believe any of it i have to believe all of it. if i cast doubt on any part of it, by arguing it's been filtered through the imperfect understanding of man or any other such apologetics, then i have to cast doubt on *all* of it.
(I helped save b3ta! boris the spider, Mon 17 May 2010, 11:40, archived)
# Do you consider yourself to be a rational person?
(I helped save b3ta! gronkpan @vomitinglarry.bsky.social, Mon 17 May 2010, 11:43, archived)
# I consider myself a person
but I couldn't really give a fuck if anyone else thinks I'm rational or not, in all honesty.

However, anyone who professes a religion and then cherry-picks the bits that they like -- I don't consider them to be thinking rationally about that religion. That doesn't mean that they're not perfectly rational about everything else, I'm not suggesting that, just that they're not being rational about their religion.
(I helped save b3ta! boris the spider, Mon 17 May 2010, 11:44, archived)
# Hahahahaha
The words "rational" and "religion" rarely co-exist
(I helped save b3ta! emvee cruor deo cruoris, Mon 17 May 2010, 11:49, archived)
# I'm sure they have at some point in history
Some time.
(I helped save b3ta! boris the spider, Mon 17 May 2010, 11:53, archived)
# What about Scientology?
That's scientific. It has science in the name and everything.
(MSB Load universe into cannon. Aim at brain. Fire., Mon 17 May 2010, 13:09, archived)
# I didn't ask what other people think
Do you consider yourself to be a rational person?

The reason I ask is that by your logic, if you've ever done anything vaguely irrational then clearly your ability to think rationally must be in doubt. According to you, you don't get to pick and choose.

I'm sure you can see what a retarded argument this is.
(I helped save b3ta! gronkpan @vomitinglarry.bsky.social, Mon 17 May 2010, 11:52, archived)
# Only a sith deals in absolutes
(Beardy Being a pirate is alright with me., Mon 17 May 2010, 11:54, archived)
# No, I'm sure you can see it's pretty retarded
to compare my opinion about myself with what GOD is meant to be telling us. I'm not God, so who gives a wet fuck about me? Everyone's irrational at times and most people are rational most of the rest of the time. But if this book is God's word then we should take every word of it extremely seriously. My logic hangs on a belief that the Bible is God's word. Since no-one in their right mind thinks that anything I say is God's word the logic doesn't even begin to apply.
(I helped save b3ta! boris the spider, Mon 17 May 2010, 11:55, archived)
# I give a fuck about you, that's why i'm asking.
It seems to me that you just don't see the bible for what it is - a 2000 year old self-help book. The only people that run into problems are the people that take the stories literally. The vast majority of christians don't take it literally. Start treating it like aesop's fables and you'll probably find some life lessons that you agree with.

(I helped save b3ta! gronkpan @vomitinglarry.bsky.social, Mon 17 May 2010, 12:03, archived)
# So essentially, the Bible is harmless as long as you don't believe in God?
(I helped save b3ta! emvee cruor deo cruoris, Mon 17 May 2010, 12:06, archived)
# Yes
It's fine to be religious if you don't believe in it.
(Beardy Being a pirate is alright with me., Mon 17 May 2010, 12:08, archived)
# Depends on your definition of god really
I'm a quaker so my definition might not be the same as yours.
(I helped save b3ta! gronkpan @vomitinglarry.bsky.social, Mon 17 May 2010, 12:10, archived)
# Quakers are about the only religion I have any time for
Mainly because they don't preach, they keep themselves to themselves and yet they do good and charitable things without having to tell everyone about it.

If all religionists were Quakers, I wouldn't have a problem with them.
(I helped save b3ta! emvee cruor deo cruoris, Mon 17 May 2010, 12:12, archived)
# Jesus once extolled the virtues
of the man who prays in silence, and of the man gives charity in secret; and he condemned the man who prays loudly on street corners and makes a show of how much money he gives away.

I wish the wee frees in St Andrews had heard of that. No idea what charitable work they do but they don't half shout loudly on the street corners.
(I helped save b3ta! boris the spider, Mon 17 May 2010, 12:14, archived)
# See, there I completely agree with Jesus
(I helped save b3ta! emvee cruor deo cruoris, Mon 17 May 2010, 12:16, archived)
# I don't think anybody should tell anyone else that their beliefs are wrong.
(I helped save b3ta! gronkpan @vomitinglarry.bsky.social, Mon 17 May 2010, 12:20, archived)
# Flipside: I don't believe anyone should tell me their beliefs are right, either
If by "beliefs" we're meaning "religious beliefs". (This isn't a criticism at you, you've not done so.) But I believe I should have the right to say that I don't believe in their beliefs and feel that they're wrong, and they have the right to say that I'm wrong and they're right all they like. (I probably won't listen but hey, they most likely won't either so everyone's even.)

There is a distinction there but it may have been lost...
(I helped save b3ta! boris the spider, Mon 17 May 2010, 12:24, archived)
# Everyone has the right to say whatever they want, whevener they want.
In my mind the most important thing society can do is just accept that there are people out there who are their polar opposites and just move on. Not tolerate, accept.
(I helped save b3ta! gronkpan @vomitinglarry.bsky.social, Mon 17 May 2010, 12:29, archived)
# Rubbish porridge though.
(twattybanjo, Mon 17 May 2010, 12:38, archived)
# I'd certainly not argue with that!
Didn't mean to sound like I did. But that's not taking it as God's word in the way I meant -- I meant people who take it literally. And cherry-picking the bits to take literally is a horrible thing to do because I feel that's an inconsistent way of thinking. That doesn't say that there aren't things to take from it that can be helpful for your life -- but it probably does say you shouldn't sit there and memorise the books of Law and stick to them all.
(I helped save b3ta! boris the spider, Mon 17 May 2010, 12:06, archived)
# If someone wants to tell me that homosexuals are evil because God said so in the Bible
but then can't explain why eating shellfish isn't evil when it's just as clearly written, then they're a fuckwit using an ancient text to prop up their own prejudices and bigotry. That's what picking and choosing gets you.
(I helped save b3ta! emvee cruor deo cruoris, Mon 17 May 2010, 11:58, archived)
# Or if someone says that we should all 'love thy neighbour'?
Why is it that Atheists take the bible so seriously?
(I helped save b3ta! gronkpan @vomitinglarry.bsky.social, Mon 17 May 2010, 12:05, archived)
# Because we've read it?
For every "love thy neighbour" in there there's a whole lot of nasty shit that I wouldn't want anyone to take to heart
(I helped save b3ta! emvee cruor deo cruoris, Mon 17 May 2010, 12:07, archived)
# 'Love thy neighbour' is obviously a good message to take
unless you live next door to Fred West. 'Murder the raped woman because she can't scream loud enough' clearly isn't. The problem comes, I think, if you take the Bible to be God's revealed truth to humanity -- if you believe that, then who are you to pick which to follow?

Clearly, a normal human being will tend to take "love thy neighbour" and reject "murder the rape victim". That's absolutely fine by me. What gets my goat is when people will then justify it not so much by pointing at the Bible but by pointing and the Bible and saying that you should love your neighbour because God tells you so.

Also, why can't I just love my neighbour anyway...? If it takes God hitting me over the head with the Bible to stop me acting like a tit then I'm probably a lost cause...
(I helped save b3ta! boris the spider, Mon 17 May 2010, 12:10, archived)
# Of course some people don't require the bible to guide them.
But some people do and that's been my point all along. If it helps someone, then no-one should have the right to tell them they're wrong provided they aren't harming anyone?
(I helped save b3ta! Redsushi! Whoop! Whoop! Yes, that one!, Mon 17 May 2010, 12:16, archived)
# People have the "right" to tell them, they just might not be right in doing so.
Free speech and all that.
(I helped save b3ta! gronkpan @vomitinglarry.bsky.social, Mon 17 May 2010, 12:18, archived)
# I'm not sure anyone was intentionally arguing against that
Where I feel people go wrong -- so to speak -- is by then elevating the Bible above, say, "Overcome Bad Self-Esteem" or, to use gronkpan's more pertinent example, Aesop's Fables. Even that doesn't actually matter, except the distressing tendency of *some* people who do so to go around telling everyone else how wrong they are and trying to influence not just our lives but the laws of our nations on the strength of their ancient life-guide. When it gets to the point that they'll want to murder me for suggesting that Jesus quite possibly didn't exist in the form we believe he did, or that Mohammed might have been power-mad, or that Abraham almost certainly didn't exist and Joseph was a myth based on a long-dead Jewish chamberlain in Egypt -- or, more farcically, that the world is older than 6,000 years, that's the problem.

And I believe you agree with me on that one...
(I helped save b3ta! boris the spider, Mon 17 May 2010, 12:21, archived)
# I have no problem with that.
Having grown up in a religious household, gone to a religious school, and consequentially, most of my friends being religious, I can say that not one single one of them has ever preached or told people how to live their lives according to the bible. It's a choice that people make, barring the few who are truly indoctrinated, and they are few and far between in my experience.
(I helped save b3ta! Redsushi! Whoop! Whoop! Yes, that one!, Mon 17 May 2010, 12:26, archived)
# I've had a couple of friends who were like that
Perfectly decent people in all other respects (well, naturally; I'd not be friends with them otherwise) but trying to convert me and pushing the Bible as absolute proof -- or ducking the question of literalism -- when it arose. But far more of my friends who were religious didn't do it.
(I helped save b3ta! boris the spider, Mon 17 May 2010, 12:34, archived)
# There's nothing wrong when the message is "be a good person"
but that's not the whole story, it's often "women and gays are inferior" and "nonbelievers will go to hell"
(I helped save b3ta! emvee cruor deo cruoris, Mon 17 May 2010, 12:23, archived)
# I'm only speaking from personal experience,
but surely it is down to interpretation? That is exactly the reason why some Muslims believe that it is their duty to kill in the name of Allah, and some Muslims don't believe that. They're all reading from the same book and getting a different outcome.
(I helped save b3ta! Redsushi! Whoop! Whoop! Yes, that one!, Mon 17 May 2010, 11:36, archived)
# they obviously haven't read Letts' GCSE Islam revision guide
(I helped save b3ta! Mighty Nibus who dares gins | @nibus, Mon 17 May 2010, 11:38, archived)
# So I got this book right, that can mean anything I want it to mean.
And it's really cool, because if anyone disagrees with it I just pass the blame onto my imaginary friend.
(Beardy Being a pirate is alright with me., Mon 17 May 2010, 11:38, archived)
# Just like when people defend dawkins with "i think what he was trying to say is..."
(I helped save b3ta! gronkpan @vomitinglarry.bsky.social, Mon 17 May 2010, 11:42, archived)
# Cheesy
(Beardy Being a pirate is alright with me., Mon 17 May 2010, 11:47, archived)
# I've also worked with Muslims and I found them to be crooked untrustworthy cunts
(I helped save b3ta! prodigy69 broke b3ta and made everyone leave, Mon 17 May 2010, 11:39, archived)
# Exactly, people are cunts.
It has fuck all to do with their religion ;)
(I helped save b3ta! Redsushi! Whoop! Whoop! Yes, that one!, Mon 17 May 2010, 11:43, archived)
# hahahaha
(I helped save b3ta! Mighty Nibus who dares gins | @nibus, Mon 17 May 2010, 11:43, archived)
# I was quite good pals with one I worked with
Until the conversation turned to Salman Rushdie, who "deserves to die for what he said"...then he tried to impress me with the story of how he and his brother hospitalised a "poof" with pool cues

I wasn't sorry when he was fired
(I helped save b3ta! emvee cruor deo cruoris, Mon 17 May 2010, 11:44, archived)