it's a difficult job, no doubtthe two young girls hand-picked by the bbc as spokepeople for the riots have valid economic and social reasons for the disorder, though they clearly express those views in a pretty unarticulate manner. The current government has eroded the rights of many and for the people that don't have much to be eroded, that causes desperation. These riots reflect a large 'group' of people ignored by the government, not simply 'wanton violence' or 'no economic or social excuse' as the bbc and government are hell-bent on painting it. It is a reaction to socioeconomic disenfranchisement which has been brought on by the current government, not by facebook, not 'just chavs being chavs' etc
what I mean is, I don't think the police are the target of this, nor should they be.
(what I mean is, I don't think the police are the target of this, nor should they be.
drbroon abloooobloobloo,
Tue 9 Aug 2011, 17:01,
archived)
I find it interestingThat the riots have not yet extended to Southall and Wembley. Both areas could claim huge amounts of young people 'outside' white middle class society; not in touch with the police or government. And yet they are not smashing windows. I'm guessing, but perhaps the Asian community know where their bread is buttered and that smashing up cars and shops owned by neighbours is pretty stupid. So I think I disagree.
(
TheSundaeLunch I'm a fucking shrub, alright?,
Tue 9 Aug 2011, 17:13,
archived)
but are these looters from the local area?I-for-one wouldn't be shitting on my own doorstep
(,
Tue 9 Aug 2011, 17:17,
archived)
You think those two girls interviewedcould navigate?
( TheSundaeLunch I'm a fucking shrub, alright?,
Tue 9 Aug 2011, 17:20,
archived)
But on the other handcunts like Ian Blair thinking they are politicians not cooperate hasn't done the force many favours.
(
Afinkawan Yes I can hear you Clem Fandango,
Tue 9 Aug 2011, 17:14,
archived)
What eroded rights are you thinking of?This is not a rhetorical question, I just wanted to know.
(,
Tue 9 Aug 2011, 17:29,
archived)
take a look at RIPA for startersThen try walking along in central London on your way home and getting batoned then shoved to the ground by a nutter in full riot gear.
Even if that doesn't happen you get kettled. I am guessing those middle class lefty people weren't carrying iron bars and looked like fairly easy targets. If they had been tooled up there may have been a bit more standing by the sidelines.
Dont get me wrong, I have felt compassion for the police force for the first time in a long time after seeing what has been happening but these people have proven they are dangerous so they get left to if for days on end. Would not want to be a copper at the moment but I would not want to be a copper full stop.
Maybe a quick way of dealing with the looters would be to take the same approach as was taken during the expenses scandal. Their court appointed lawyer would address the court advising "my client has returned everything he stole and trusts that will be the end of the matter".
(,
Thu 11 Aug 2011, 11:51,
archived)
Even if that doesn't happen you get kettled. I am guessing those middle class lefty people weren't carrying iron bars and looked like fairly easy targets. If they had been tooled up there may have been a bit more standing by the sidelines.
Dont get me wrong, I have felt compassion for the police force for the first time in a long time after seeing what has been happening but these people have proven they are dangerous so they get left to if for days on end. Would not want to be a copper at the moment but I would not want to be a copper full stop.
Maybe a quick way of dealing with the looters would be to take the same approach as was taken during the expenses scandal. Their court appointed lawyer would address the court advising "my client has returned everything he stole and trusts that will be the end of the matter".
The kids in London are not doing it out of social disenfranchisementor pololotics, or because they're making a statement against the capitalist hegemony, they're doing it because they can get fashionable trainers and iPods for free.
This is why all the bookshops have been left alone, but JD Sports and PC World have taken the massive brunt of the violence.
This is not a political issue, it is about the underclass children of at least two generations, who have been raised to hate the police, what their rights are, and where to get their benefits, claiming what's theirs.
Only it isn't fucking theirs.
See that old lady on the street? FUCK HER! She perpetuated The System! LET'S BUST INTO HER FLAT AND GET HER FUCKING TELLY BECAUSE WE'RE ALL EQUAL NOW AND I SHOULD GET MINE!
You know that guy doing night shifts at the factory for the past year to pay for his kids child support? FUCK HIM! FUCKING IDIOT SHOULDN'T HAVE LEFT HIS KID!
It's fucking pathetic trying to justify this - it's just cunts being cunts, nothing more - nothing clever, nothing political - it's just kids stealing, because they can, because they know that no one will touch them. Because they're disenfranchised, innit.
(This is why all the bookshops have been left alone, but JD Sports and PC World have taken the massive brunt of the violence.
This is not a political issue, it is about the underclass children of at least two generations, who have been raised to hate the police, what their rights are, and where to get their benefits, claiming what's theirs.
Only it isn't fucking theirs.
See that old lady on the street? FUCK HER! She perpetuated The System! LET'S BUST INTO HER FLAT AND GET HER FUCKING TELLY BECAUSE WE'RE ALL EQUAL NOW AND I SHOULD GET MINE!
You know that guy doing night shifts at the factory for the past year to pay for his kids child support? FUCK HIM! FUCKING IDIOT SHOULDN'T HAVE LEFT HIS KID!
It's fucking pathetic trying to justify this - it's just cunts being cunts, nothing more - nothing clever, nothing political - it's just kids stealing, because they can, because they know that no one will touch them. Because they're disenfranchised, innit.
Je suis un vagabond is an unfunny, up your own arse middle class knob,
Tue 9 Aug 2011, 17:47,
archived)
I completely disagree.but you've obviously enjoyed the BBC's coverage, so it may be too late for me to sway your point of view.
My point was written in a rush before I had to go off to work, so apologies for the late reply.
I am just unable to take your black and white viewpoint seriously, that it's simply cunts being cunts. I see the looting as a symptom of the widespread anger at various problems in British society cuts, erosion of the benefit services, lack of job opportunities, poor standards of health care and education in deprived areas, poor community education and community development in deprived areas, shocking standards of housing, lack of trust for the police in light of recent media stories and negative personal experiences with police etc. I think it is incredibly superficial to see the disorder as simply because they all want to go thieving, though the dissemination of this point of view suits the government very well in influencing opinion against the rioters, should some people think that it's somehow got something to do with the government (surely not!).
I did not seek to justify any violence/theft/fireraising, only suggested a reason for it, that is, that a large social group feels it has no future and no place in society and are showing that they will not be ignored any longer.
Then again, it feels much better to just say it's "just cunts being cunts" and that it has nothing to do with wider societal problems.
(My point was written in a rush before I had to go off to work, so apologies for the late reply.
I am just unable to take your black and white viewpoint seriously, that it's simply cunts being cunts. I see the looting as a symptom of the widespread anger at various problems in British society cuts, erosion of the benefit services, lack of job opportunities, poor standards of health care and education in deprived areas, poor community education and community development in deprived areas, shocking standards of housing, lack of trust for the police in light of recent media stories and negative personal experiences with police etc. I think it is incredibly superficial to see the disorder as simply because they all want to go thieving, though the dissemination of this point of view suits the government very well in influencing opinion against the rioters, should some people think that it's somehow got something to do with the government (surely not!).
I did not seek to justify any violence/theft/fireraising, only suggested a reason for it, that is, that a large social group feels it has no future and no place in society and are showing that they will not be ignored any longer.
Then again, it feels much better to just say it's "just cunts being cunts" and that it has nothing to do with wider societal problems.
drbroon abloooobloobloo,
Tue 9 Aug 2011, 23:28,
archived)
There have always beenlarge social groups suffering in one way or another but the reaction to this situation doesn't follow a pattern of social expression, it appears to be opportunistic, 'safety in numbers' muppetry the likes of which has been created by a succession of enfranchising expansions in rights and expectations over the last century or so. To suggest that this type of situation isn't black and white is actually a little bit off target as it bears few of the hallmarks of popular uprisings the likes of which we have seen in the 'Arab spring' (but also ambling back through time to the Russian revolution) where there was a focus to the turmoil not merely a push to self serving anarchy amongst a small corps of the population.
(
number5 has been fighting tramps and losing.,
Wed 10 Aug 2011, 0:07,
archived)
in your opinion, it's off target.I am simply suggesting an underlying problem, in my opinion. I don't think, due to the disorganised nature of the uprising, for one reason or another, that there will ever be a stated common point to the violence in order to draw parallels with the Arab spring. Social exclusion leads to a build up of anger over time and it is expressed in however a particular collective can/wish to. The problem is caused by social exclusion, therefore it is society's and the government's problem, they created this. I would contend that these people would not be motivated to violence and looting if they had been afforded the opportunities in life available to those who sit on a messageboard at 12:55 pontificating on such subjects.
( drbroon abloooobloobloo,
Wed 10 Aug 2011, 0:55,
archived)
Despite my rant belowA good part of me agrees with you to a point. But, as a person sitting on a messageboard at 12:55 doing just that, didn't you make your own opportunities? Are you not that person because of what you did and how you did it, rather than what The Man gave you? Why do you think it should be different for anyone else?
I will actively fight to continue to help people who need help, but at the same time I know from my own experience that there are a huge number of people shitting on my help, living on subsidised rents they don't need and haven't needed for 6 years for example. And I truly believe its those people, the ones who have had "rights" to shit on the help society gives them interfered with, that are the most aggrieved. The truly needy, the truly poor, are silent and forgotten as usual whilst all our attention and money is focussed on fighting, silencing, or pandering to the brats with a sense of entitlement.
(I will actively fight to continue to help people who need help, but at the same time I know from my own experience that there are a huge number of people shitting on my help, living on subsidised rents they don't need and haven't needed for 6 years for example. And I truly believe its those people, the ones who have had "rights" to shit on the help society gives them interfered with, that are the most aggrieved. The truly needy, the truly poor, are silent and forgotten as usual whilst all our attention and money is focussed on fighting, silencing, or pandering to the brats with a sense of entitlement.
Throat And Ice Pie I see dem tatties dere.,
Wed 10 Aug 2011, 11:07,
archived)
"I see the looting as a symptom of the widespread anger at various problems in British society... and negative personal experiences with police etc."
At what point, exactly, do you feel that these misunderstood darlings should take personal responsibility for being violent arsonists and opportunistic thieves? Even assuming those people cheerfully looting the high-value shops in their neighborhood actually subscribe to your point of view - which is by no means certain - their actions are not really contributing towards a solution.
It's kind of you to proffer a reason to their antisocial antics, some form of lofty justification. They, themselves, have demonstrated none - other than 'woo, free telly'. They're lucky to have you as their self-appointed spokesperson, mashing out a series of clichéd post-hoc rationales for their unforgivably shitty behavior.
You honestly think the cunts nicking TVs and tracksuits, burning random properties and cars, and stealing things from the pockets of fallen 'comrades' are doing it in order to protest health care standards, or any other specific item in your laundry list of sixth-form angst?
(At what point, exactly, do you feel that these misunderstood darlings should take personal responsibility for being violent arsonists and opportunistic thieves? Even assuming those people cheerfully looting the high-value shops in their neighborhood actually subscribe to your point of view - which is by no means certain - their actions are not really contributing towards a solution.
It's kind of you to proffer a reason to their antisocial antics, some form of lofty justification. They, themselves, have demonstrated none - other than 'woo, free telly'. They're lucky to have you as their self-appointed spokesperson, mashing out a series of clichéd post-hoc rationales for their unforgivably shitty behavior.
You honestly think the cunts nicking TVs and tracksuits, burning random properties and cars, and stealing things from the pockets of fallen 'comrades' are doing it in order to protest health care standards, or any other specific item in your laundry list of sixth-form angst?
Happy Phantom has been to Hastings, Brighton, and Eastbourne too,
Wed 10 Aug 2011, 2:24,
archived)
I'm suggesting it as a reason for the build up of angernot as a justification for the individuals involved.
Such social disorder is the fault of the government, make no mistake about it. I can understand people getting all angry about it and all "kill those fucking uneducated chav scum", but I think it's important to keep an eye on the real reasons, not justifications, reasons for why this is happening now. I didn't mean to sound like I sympathised with the rioters as such, I only meant to suggest that there is certainly a bigger picture than just "chavs being chavs".
(Such social disorder is the fault of the government, make no mistake about it. I can understand people getting all angry about it and all "kill those fucking uneducated chav scum", but I think it's important to keep an eye on the real reasons, not justifications, reasons for why this is happening now. I didn't mean to sound like I sympathised with the rioters as such, I only meant to suggest that there is certainly a bigger picture than just "chavs being chavs".
drbroon abloooobloobloo,
Wed 10 Aug 2011, 10:34,
archived)
I can only say to you what I say to everyoneSee how much the bigger picture matters to you when there are people trying to set fire to your home. This has literally been the case for some of my friends. The righteous anger of the poor, forgotten, blackberry owning, social media utilizing underclass eh? What the mainstream media is reporting becomes irrelevant when you're watching the bloke next door being beaten by kids wearing £300 trainers and designer clothing. Which they did not loot.
And yes, of course there are social problems and people with legitimate complaint, when aren't there? Personally if I have problems I sort them the fuck out rather than sitting around waiting for the government to do it for me and whingeing about the nanny state interfering with my life at the same time, whilst waiting around for a bunch of brain-dead thugs to use my malaise as an excuse to destroy people's lives and grab stuff so I can bleat about how that's the government's fault too.
Also its funny how the mainstream media are so establishment biased when it comes to reporting the riots. They were all so spot on about the cause of the financial crisis and it being solely the fault of bankers.
Massive double standards, the mainstream media.
(And yes, of course there are social problems and people with legitimate complaint, when aren't there? Personally if I have problems I sort them the fuck out rather than sitting around waiting for the government to do it for me and whingeing about the nanny state interfering with my life at the same time, whilst waiting around for a bunch of brain-dead thugs to use my malaise as an excuse to destroy people's lives and grab stuff so I can bleat about how that's the government's fault too.
Also its funny how the mainstream media are so establishment biased when it comes to reporting the riots. They were all so spot on about the cause of the financial crisis and it being solely the fault of bankers.
Massive double standards, the mainstream media.
Throat And Ice Pie I see dem tatties dere.,
Wed 10 Aug 2011, 10:57,
archived)
Yes, this is entirely due to feelings of disenfranchisement:webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:QUCcfjo2mgEJ:www.gumtree.com/p/for-sale/greate-variety-of-new-unopened-laptops-in-original-packigingtoshibahpcompaqasussamsung-40-rpr/84845982+greate+variety+unopened+laptops&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk&source=www.google.co.uk
www.google.co.uk/#sclient=psy&hl=en&site=&source=hp&q=http:%2F%2Flondon.craigslist.co.uk%2Fmob%2F2536072357.html&pbx=1&oq=http:%2F%2Flondon.craigslist.co.uk%2Fmob%2F2536072357.html&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=798l7833l0l8292l2l1l0l0l0l0l106l106l0.1l1l0&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=9cf2e8405c02f145&biw=1272&bih=654
(Both now removed from their respective sites.)
Now that's how you stick it to the Man, and express your dismay at the way the country is run. None of this namby-pamby protest nonsense, just nick some shit and sell it.
(www.google.co.uk/#sclient=psy&hl=en&site=&source=hp&q=http:%2F%2Flondon.craigslist.co.uk%2Fmob%2F2536072357.html&pbx=1&oq=http:%2F%2Flondon.craigslist.co.uk%2Fmob%2F2536072357.html&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=798l7833l0l8292l2l1l0l0l0l0l106l106l0.1l1l0&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=9cf2e8405c02f145&biw=1272&bih=654
(Both now removed from their respective sites.)
Now that's how you stick it to the Man, and express your dismay at the way the country is run. None of this namby-pamby protest nonsense, just nick some shit and sell it.
flake has nothing against your right leg,
Wed 10 Aug 2011, 17:18,
archived)