If there was a scale from ugly to beautiful,
trannies should bear in mind that if they're just an average looking bloke, they're going to right to bottom of the ugly scale as a woman. Like, whatever fantasies they have in their heads about what it's going to be like, they're not just transitioning to a woman, they're transitioning to a really ugly woman, someone who's going to inspire in passersby a "Christ, what the fuck is that?" double-take reaction before the realisation that they're a trannie dawns on them. I hope psychiatrists explain that's what's in store for them.
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cumquat may will not be commenting further on the allegations, Sun 8 Aug 2021, 1:14,
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Maybe they're not doing it for you
I dunno, I thought most of us stopped feeling the need to assign a grade to every woman we saw when we were in our early 20s.
(, Sun 8 Aug 2021, 1:23, Reply)
who said anything about assigning a grade to every woman we saw? talk about a strawman
But you do presumably notice comparatively beautiful or comparatively ugly women, unless you've totally lost interest, and the majority of tranny woman are at the bottom and inspire that reaction, not just in me, but in most passers-by. They're of an ugliness that my kids tug my shirt and I have to explain to them it's rude to stare at people. I mean, there's people that are attracted to trannies, but there's people who go for morbidly obese women too. but the vast majority of people have a fairly conformist range of what they consider attractive.
However you'd or they'd wish things to be, that's the reality. Maybe some it doesn't bother, maybe some like the reaction they never got as blokes. Good luck to 'em, it's quite a brave thing to do. But they have to deal with it, nevertheless, and should know that it's not going to be some belle of the ball fantasy. Somehow I doubt that this aspect is explained to them amongst the modern transitioning support that they get
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cumquat may will not be commenting further on the allegations, Sun 8 Aug 2021, 1:39,
Reply)
I suspect adults contemplating transition have thought about this.
It's much deeper than being conventionally attractive.
There are pretty strict protocols around transitioning where surgery or hormonal treatments are involved (UK). This is done IIRC, to weed out people with other conditions, experimenting teenagers etc.
Edit: Watch 'The Adventures of Priscilla, Queen of the Desert'
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FeralCatMan Long ads need comments sections, Sun 8 Aug 2021, 2:34,
Reply)
never underestimate the ability of people to entertain completely unrealistic notions in their head, especially about themselves
and given modern norms, I bet at no stage any of the allied health professionals involved ever mention the word ugly. anyway, it's just an observation. When I see a tranny walk down the high street I often wonder if getting continuously stared at aghast like a circus freak was quite what they had in mind when they felt like expressing their trapped gender identity or however they describe it. It's certainly not the experience that most women whom they're trying to emulate get. The ones who you can instantly identify as such have it a bit easier, it's the ones where there's that initial doubt that get those unmoderated reactions.
And priscilla, which I've seen, was about drag queens doing a touring show. I hope you're not suggesting people make the transition just so they can be Ru Paul. I didn't think it was that realistic anyway. People in shitty mining towns, where I've spent a fair bit of time, are more accepting of wierdos and outcasts than you might think, as a lot of them are that themselves. It's the endless suburbs of australia where most people live where people are the most conformist and judgemental
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cumquat may will not be commenting further on the allegations, Sun 8 Aug 2021, 4:49,
Reply)
never underestimate the ability of people to entertain completely unrealistic notions in their head, especially about themselves
like the way you've written multiple paragraphs of your opinion of what other people's intenal thought processes are and how you'll judge them for just wanting to be happy?
give it a rest you tedious cunt
(, Sun 8 Aug 2021, 10:28, Reply)
i'm afraid you're too thick to follow my argument, and have misinterpreted my position
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cumquat may will not be commenting further on the allegations, Sun 8 Aug 2021, 13:06,
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Priscilla highlights differences in why people do drag.
One of the characters is transgender, the others are in drag. For the guys this is 'showbiz' for her it is more serious.
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FeralCatMan Long ads need comments sections, Sun 8 Aug 2021, 22:48,
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it's been a long time since I watched it, but I remember it being a good flick, good performances
And I take the point you were making
I think it was terence stamps character who was the transgender, who he played with a fair bit of pathos
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cumquat may will not be commenting further on the allegations, Sun 8 Aug 2021, 23:58,
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maybe I notice some women briefly
Everyone else I don't give a second thought in the same way I don't really think about a cis man or an 80 year old woman. Whatever their appearance, it's not for my benefit. I don't sit on the tube gawping at people, thinking about how a person I'm never going to interact with doesn't meet my arbitrary attractiveness criteria.
(, Sun 8 Aug 2021, 10:34, Reply)
well, good for you. You're a fine human being and I won't hear anyone say differently
But if you happen to see a tranny on the tube or out and about, don't look at them, look at how the strangers around them are reacting to them. the stares, the glance that break on eye contact. the whispers. the unconcealed reactions of kids. Then think about what it must be like experiencing this constantly.
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cumquat may will not be commenting further on the allegations, Sun 8 Aug 2021, 13:33,
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I'd have thought most people who transition were mostly fantasising about finally feeling comfortable in their own skin.
To say nothing of the fact that (AFAIK) you have to have lived as your 'correct' gender for quite a while before they will even consider reassignment surgery.
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jonbob loves you, Sun 8 Aug 2021, 2:34,
Reply)
reassignment surgery doesn't fix ugliness, and they're still in their own skin regardless
besides, I think you're both being quite presumptuous by assuming being desirable to men plays no part in their gender identity, given how fundamental sex and desire is to most humans.
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cumquat may will not be commenting further on the allegations, Sun 8 Aug 2021, 5:04,
Reply)
Sexual/physical attraction is *completely* subjective.
If you find transgender females with masculine bone structure unattractive, then that's your problem. But who are you to say what is 'ugly beyond your own personal tastes?
The standards that define 'beauty' vary wildy between cultures. And very wildly again based upon individual standards.
Are you comparing these 'ugly transgender individuals to the stereotypical British ideal of a 'beautiful' female (slim, slight features, long legs, big tits, blonde hair)? Is that even the stereotypical British ideal any more?
I see plenty of Women/Girls on Social Media that are regarded by a huge number of people as 'hot' or 'sexy' or 'fit'. Most of them look fucking horrendous as far as I'm concerned, but that's just my opinion, man.
I'm not into the stereotypical 'sexy lady' aesthetic at all. I'd much prefer a woman with oil and dirt on her face to half an inch of concealer.
There's an individual that comes into my place of work fairly regularly. I don't know what pronoun they prefer, as I'm not the greatest conversationalist, but they were clearly born into a male body. Whether this person enjoys wearing makeup and typically feminine clothing, or whether they identify as female is none of my fucking business anyway, really. Neither is it up to me to label them as 'ugly. They're not my cup of tea, but neither are a vast majority of the population - doesn't mean they're ugly.
Perhaps your problem with these particular individuals is that they aren't 'fishy enough for you. But again, I don't really see why it's any of your concern at all. Frankly your whole 'I HOPE THEY REALISE THEY'LL NEVER BE PRETTY' outburst sounds somewhat resentful. Have you had a bad experience with a transgender individual in the past? Are you harbouring uncomfortable feelings about your own sexual orientation? There are loads of places on the Web where you can talk to people about these feelings. B3ta probably isn't the one I'd recommend though.
(, Sun 8 Aug 2021, 8:40, Reply)
bullshit attraction is completely subjective, you've let all that nonsense go to your head
quite the contrary, there's actually high levels of agreement on what is attractive and what's ugly, and if you look a bit deeper it's because we're all applying common criteria in our judgement. Most people think helena Christiansen is attractive, and it's actually because we're all noting fine bone structure, high cheekbones, eye spacing and the like. there's some cultural influence to how it developed as in other things, but that counts to unless the tranny is planning on moving, they have to deal with the culture you're in. What's more we're even more attuned to sexual dimorphism, basically we're good at telling who is male and who is female, for obvious evolutionary advantage and not wasting paying for dinner. So people are very good at telling when someone is the opposite sex faking being male or female. A rare few can pass, but my comment was about average plain looking men wanting to be female, and part of the reason for those constant stares and children pointing is not just that they make ugly women but they set off all sorts of alarm bells as we subconsciously note bone development, chin size, adams apple and the other things we're good at picking up on to tell the sex of someone. We know there's something wrong, and we stare until it dawns on us that they're a tranny. They might feel like a women and identify as such, but sadly most aren't very good at passing as one.
As to your amateur psychoanalysis of me, I consider it a poor ad hominen attack compensating for the fact you know I'm right but prefer not to accept the reality because it interferes with your virtue signalling
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cumquat may will not be commenting further on the allegations, Sun 8 Aug 2021, 9:11,
Reply)
Helena Christiansen is attractive?
Well you bollocksed that one right up
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Fadgebadger Sweaty sumo wanks for everyone!, Sun 8 Aug 2021, 9:18,
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it's good that you're wanking off to widdecombe, attraction being "completely" subjective and all
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cumquat may will not be commenting further on the allegations, Sun 8 Aug 2021, 9:31,
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says the bloke who's basically foregone any attempts at argument and is just firing off one insult after another
It wasn't a huge point I was making, it was just an observation, that rather than have this experience of being treated like woman when they dress as one, instead they get constant gawping when they go out in public, children pointing, people nudging each other and whispering on trains. I've seen it a lot, . So they're not actually getting treated like women, because most women, apart from freakishly ugly ones, don't get this. And whether, along with all the affirmation and support they get, whether this consequence is adequately explained to them. It's a valid observation, and an accurate one in many cases. I put things crudely, as is my way, and it seems to have upset you which wasn't my intention. But I don't think any of this "every butterfly is beautiful and special and all beauty is subjective" reflects the reality of this experience, it's wishful thinking and virtue signalling
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cumquat may will not be commenting further on the allegations, Sun 8 Aug 2021, 11:01,
Reply)
What *is* 'being treated like a woman?
Having a coat thrown down by a gentleman so you don't muddy your shoes in a puddle? A doth of the hat? A chair pulled out for you at dinner?
(, Sun 8 Aug 2021, 11:12, Reply)
is your plan to wear me down with stupidity?
take a class if you haven't learnt how gender mediates social interaction by now. Or is that another thing you don't believe in along with attractiveness?
"Sex category (ie.. how gender, cultural category of male or female) appears
as a multi-level system of difference and to be one of a very few social identities that are so culturally important that they must be evoked to render any concrete other sufficiently meaningful to be interacted with.
In fact, the evidence shows that we automatically sex categorize any specific person that we must interact with" (Ridgeway 1996, Gender and Social Interaction)
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cumquat may will not be commenting further on the allegations, Sun 8 Aug 2021, 11:42,
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I'm talking about her younger days, of course
there was a reason they put her on magazine covers to flog stuff
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cumquat may will not be commenting further on the allegations, Sun 8 Aug 2021, 9:26,
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It's almost as if you're saying that transgender women are wasting their time if they can't meet the standards set by fashion magazines.
And should just continue to live as men, instead.
(, Sun 8 Aug 2021, 9:31, Reply)
it's almost as if you're saying that
if I want to make an argument, I'll say it without you strawmanning
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cumquat may will not be commenting further on the allegations, Sun 8 Aug 2021, 9:32,
Reply)
you mean, when someone take the arguments of another and exaggerates and embellishes it to well beyond what that argument was, ie, creating a strawman to then argue against
such as claiming that by mentioning magazines Im making an argument that transgendered people should meet magazine standard beauty, instead of the context I was using it in which was about evidence of conformity of opinion around helena christianses attractiveness. i.e, replacing the proposition I made with one he made. I'm afraid that's classic strawmanning he's engaged in, and it's you that need to be educated about the terms and their correct usage
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cumquat may will not be commenting further on the allegations, Sun 8 Aug 2021, 11:50,
Reply)
So, what was it? Did an ex-partner realise they were trans? A parent?
There's a bloody great series on Amazon Prime about that.
(, Sun 8 Aug 2021, 9:24, Reply)
you sound like you've quite the interest and rich fantasy life regarding them
is this part of your fan fiction?
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cumquat may will not be commenting further on the allegations, Sun 8 Aug 2021, 9:28,
Reply)
ahh, so you're defending daddy
well, that explains why you're getting your knickers in a twist, if you'll excuse the metaphor
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cumquat may will not be commenting further on the allegations, Sun 8 Aug 2021, 9:34,
Reply)
now that you've tried your 101 internet trolling gambit
I'd be curious, if you feel like being honest, if him getting gawped at by strangers on the high street was one aspect that was hard to deal with, and it's an aspect which is quite unlike what biological females tend to experience. Take your time, I'm off to do some shopping
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cumquat may will not be commenting further on the allegations, Sun 8 Aug 2021, 9:43,
Reply)
Biological females don't get gawped at in the street?
Maybe he didn't give a fuck. Should people with physical deformities hide themselves away from the public eye incase their appearance upsets people, too? What exactly is the point you're trying to make?
(, Sun 8 Aug 2021, 9:52, Reply)
no, again this wasn't an argument I made. you seem very keen to put words into my mouth
my point was this is a common experience for trannies in public, and whether people who assist in them in transitioning, like the psychiatrist in the video, adequately inform them of this quite harsh reality. The fact that people like yourself cant even acknowledge it without resorting to hysterical contrivances like your last reply makes me think that this might be something that in trying to create a supportive atmosphere and allow the person to fulfil whatever gender identity they want to express, this less savoury aspect might be omitted. I also wonder if all the out drag queen stuff might be a way of dealing something they would have copped anyway, but at least it's on their terms. You'd have to do some sort of poll of trannies to find out. but it's a valid observation, and whether you have problems dealing with it is your business
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cumquat may will not be commenting further on the allegations, Sun 8 Aug 2021, 12:04,
Reply)
This is just an example of
The way people treat trans people like babies, not like women.
A trans woman being gawped at in the street is experiencing something very different ti what a woman experiences when she is gawped at on the street. The latter is experiencing men who can’t or choose not to control themselves when they see someone they find attractive, the former is experiencing people staring because they’re seeing a person who looks a bit “off” to them and so is doing a double take or clocking them.
That’s the reality of it.
I think there’s a germ of a point there though, which is that it seems likely - especially based on the outfits I’ve seen some in when I’ve seen trans people out and about - that there’s a conscious choice to provoke a WTF? reaction, because the person can experience the stares that they didn’t get when dressed in masculine/neutral clothing, and process the experience as affirmation on]f being a woman.
(, Sun 8 Aug 2021, 12:20, Reply)
like I said, it was more of an observation , and I remember wondering at the time watching other peoples reaction if this was what they imagined it was going to be like before they transitioned
perhaps because of my crudeness Swagatha has me pegged as some tranny hater, but I reckon I've had more in my social circle than many, though no relatives I know about. If someone's friendly to me then I reciprocate, though I do have an aversion to dull people who trannies rarely are. I lived in brazil where travestis (their term for anything from drag to transgender) were more common and treated a little differently, though it wasn't without transphobia. And one of the most common reasons for gay blokes becoming TGs was that they could make more money as prostitutes, somehow the macho latin culture saw picking up trannies as more acceptable than gayzinhos. i lived near where avenida republica became indianapolis which was tranny prostitute central of the whole continent of an evening. My view on these thing is you probably should try and express your desires as long as it doesn't involve children or animals. but be prepared for the consequences of that expression, which can be copping constant gawping, or worse, kids and a mortgage
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cumquat may will not be commenting further on the allegations, Sun 8 Aug 2021, 12:54,
Reply)
It's the uncanny valley effect
something is not quite right with that person, hardwired response
(, Sun 8 Aug 2021, 19:39, Reply)