Reminded of this by the Cleese-baiting below
Saturday Morning Breakfast Comic on ethical progress and redundancy.
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Invisible Wizard - 12th Level Errorer, Thu 9 Feb 2023, 16:33,
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Not sure this is a new or accelerating phenomenon
Cleese fought all these battles from the other side when he was younger. The Major was a satire of the retrograde views of people 20 years older than him. Muggeridge and the Bishop of Southwark were the establishment he once thought he despised but has now joined.
(, Thu 9 Feb 2023, 17:33, Reply)
It’s simplistic and wrong to say he fought these battles…
…from the other side.
What Cleese has always done, most successfully within Monty Python is push against moral puritanism and authoritarianism.
The direction from which the moral puritanism is coming has changed, Cleese’s objections to such nonsense remain the same.
(Not that I think a fawlty towers reboot is a good idea or will even actually happen)
He’s correct in recognising that the people attempting to limit expression (even if he might be individually somewhat immune to it due to wealth and status) are now left wing supposed progressives. If you haven’t noticed that in the last few years many on the left have been tiresome and censorious, then that’s probably because you’re tiresome and censorious yourself.
(, Thu 9 Feb 2023, 19:03, Reply)
so, no one is stopping you saying anything
You can say what ever you like. Just these days, folks are you calling you out on your (not yours, personally) racist, homophobic, backward ass retard shit and saying you should go hide under a rock.
But we won't stop you saying it. Just call you out on it.
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colmcq2, Fri 10 Feb 2023, 7:55,
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Are you perhaps saying that people who say/post clearly bigoted/transphobic/racist/homophobic things don't like being called out on it?
Might they perhaps view this as 'chippiness' when those views are called out?
Just thinking out loud.
(, Fri 10 Feb 2023, 9:51, Reply)
It’s demonstrably not true
Speak to any of the female journalists who have been forced out of their jobs at the guardian, and then had the fact that they write for other newspapers used as evidence that they must be bigots if they’re writing for the Times…
Dearie me, as a life long lefty, the it’s laughable that some on the left really are pretending that “cancelling” isn’t a thing.
(, Fri 10 Feb 2023, 11:17, Reply)
That's not true though, is it?
You are free to say anything you want ONCE, after which that comment will be deleted and you will be banned/blocked forever.
As happened to the person who dared to say 'Men aren't Women' on twitter (Megan Murphy).
(, Sat 11 Feb 2023, 8:34, Reply)
when you say "you"
who do you mean? - i mean, besides a certain type of self-promoting political agitator inclined to pervasive, inflammatory and offensive trolling.
when you say "anything you want", what do you mean? - i mean besides comments precisely worded to cause offence and distress.
there's just no excuse for online abuse, and i think being banned for it is entirely justifiable.
that you evidently sympathise with ms murphy's position speaks to your own intolerance, doesn't it.
(, Sun 12 Feb 2023, 10:53, Reply)
Maybe you haven't noticed the censoriousness because you don't feel the need to whinge about brown people in the way Cleese does these days
(, Thu 9 Feb 2023, 21:07, Reply)
did that give you a little boner, saying that?
should save it for the guardian comments where the likes will tip you over the edge
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cumquat may will not be commenting further on the allegations, Thu 9 Feb 2023, 22:33,
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are you just edging at the monent, is that it?
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cumquat may will not be commenting further on the allegations, Fri 10 Feb 2023, 1:25,
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The sexual tension
between you two is fascinating, it's like watching The X Files or Moonlighting.
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My Name was saying these words inside your head on, Fri 10 Feb 2023, 10:39,
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fun fact:
the show moonlighting in brazil was called "the cat and the rat".
i always loved their translations
Jackie Chan vehicle "Shanghai Knights" was titled "the man who hits and runs away"
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cumquat may will not be commenting further on the allegations, Fri 10 Feb 2023, 11:44,
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I’m just trying to make him last longer
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cumquat may will not be commenting further on the allegations, Sat 11 Feb 2023, 2:06,
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tsk, "the cat and the mouse" makes more sense no?
and "bater ou correr em londres" translates as "fight or flight in london"
but far be it from me to spoil your fun
(, Sun 12 Feb 2023, 11:04, Reply)
it's the simplicity that appeals, as it did with theology
moral relativism takes more thinking so is never likely to be in fashion
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cumquat may will not be commenting further on the allegations, Thu 9 Feb 2023, 22:37,
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Thinking will never be fashionable
because most people seem unable to do it
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My Name was saying these words inside your head on, Fri 10 Feb 2023, 10:41,
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i don't often find myself agreeing with berightback
but you are, in fact, completely incorrect
(, Thu 9 Feb 2023, 23:25, Reply)
If you look at banned book lists,
it's almost entirely stuff the right have deemed woke.
guides.lib.de.us/banned
Everyone has become tiresome and censorious because of culture wars shit / social media. It's not a left wing thing.
And "free speech" cunts are almost always massive hypocrites.
www.chortle.co.uk/news/2020/04/10/45853/i_was_censored..._by_the_free_speech_stand-up_night%21
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monkeon schmonkeon, Thu 9 Feb 2023, 23:48,
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You didn't specify UK.
The right here are trying to do things like stop the National Trust talking about slavery, and shut down the right to protest.
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monkeon schmonkeon, Fri 10 Feb 2023, 9:51,
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This.
Our right wing government has literally banned free protest, made it harder to vote, and they want to further limit the power of the workers. They want us to abandon international human rights conventions. They already stopped our kids learning about the British Empire, now they want to stop them learning about politics at all.
OMG but a university uninvited some crackpots to lecture on bollocks that nobody cares about and there's a leisure centre in Brighton with a unisex changing room and Dave's uncle on facebook says they're putting litter trays in primary schools for the pupils who identify as cats.
Never forget that we're surrounded by fucking idiots.
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brb Monkhouse Stampede, Fri 10 Feb 2023, 18:12,
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Books banned (or complained about) in the UK tend to be things like
Black Beauty - Anna Sewell
Last Exit to Brooklyn - Herbert Selby
Lady Chatterley’s Lover - DH Lawrence
The Well of Loneliness - Radclyffe Hall
A Clockwork Orange - Anthony Burgess
Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone - JK Rowling
Ulysses - James Joyce
The Da Vinci Code - Dan Brown
Animal Farm - George Orwell
The Country Girls - Edna O’Brien
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My Name was saying these words inside your head on, Fri 10 Feb 2023, 10:50,
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Cars and trucks and things that go - Richard Scary
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cumquat may will not be commenting further on the allegations, Fri 10 Feb 2023, 10:54,
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Oh I’m all for banning that
Dingo dog can do one.
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wheresthefish Partly filled with wrong, Fri 10 Feb 2023, 19:57,
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The Well of Loneliness
- is dull and shite by modern standards.
"Ground breaking banned lesbian book," they said. "Dull and shite," says I.
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Invisible Wizard - 12th Level Errorer, Fri 10 Feb 2023, 17:03,
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I don't think finding people on the right who've transgressed more or been dicks makes his point about the times being censorius less valid
the opposite behaviour to being condemnatory and censorious s to chill out a bit more and be less judgey. be a bit more tolerant and forgiving of others' opinions and flaws knowing that nobody's perfect, that none of have a lock on the perfect way to live and everything we do has some impact. Thats what being a decent person with good values is, it's not going on twitter to call someone a racist or homophobic, or telling them they're going to burn in hell like the god-botherers before them.
It 's not getting fussed if someone identifies and dresses as a woman, but also not getting fussed if someone thinks there more to being a woman than identity, as long as no one's being a dick about it, no pun intended
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cumquat may will not be commenting further on the allegations, Fri 10 Feb 2023, 1:24,
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Fair enough, more importantly...
What value system does hanging round B3ta imply?
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FeralCatMan Long ads need comments sections, Fri 10 Feb 2023, 1:53,
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it's keeping each other amused, which is a Noble Cause™
The Puerile tagline should indicate it's probably not the ideal place for the precious or easily offended
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cumquat may will not be commenting further on the allegations, Fri 10 Feb 2023, 3:55,
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Jane Austin nailed it
“For what do we live, but to make sport for our neighbors, and laugh at them in our turn?”
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My Name was saying these words inside your head on, Fri 10 Feb 2023, 10:53,
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His point was
"the people attempting to limit expression are now left wing supposed progressives", not that people in general are too censorious.
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monkeon schmonkeon, Fri 10 Feb 2023, 9:45,
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i took it to mean that the left joining in on the act was the major shift, not that they were exclusive
as those old enough to remember mary whitehouse might attest.
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cumquat may will not be commenting further on the allegations, Fri 10 Feb 2023, 9:50,
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If that is what he meant,
then I'm not entirely in disagreement, though it reads more to me like someone who thinks the right really are all about freedom of speech, as they pretend to be, but clearly aren't.
Still reckon the main shift has been a mix of social media's ability to radicalise, and the press becoming click bait built around what's happening on Twitter.
People would protest Bernard Manning shows in the 90s, but it wasn't reported on as the left wanting to ban comedy, and most people wouldn't have any opinion on it.
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monkeon schmonkeon, Fri 10 Feb 2023, 10:16,
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it's not just about twitter or a few famous people suffering
as a side story, and I know Ive waffled on, Ive got a close friend who's now head of english at a big fancypants private school, really passionate about literature and poetry and is in demand to present on it at conferences. She's turned on Margaret Attwood because of some tweet where attwood linked to an article where the other author made the point that "saying "person who menstruates" instead of "woman who menstruates," to honor transgender men and nonbinary people – actually erases women from the conversation.". And that was that. No argument of moral relativism could sway her, that Attwood was one of the greatest post-modern feminist authors alive, thoughtful and brilliant and nuanced. No, she's trangressed by linking to an article deemed transgressive, and for my friend that was enough. And she chooses reading lists for her school
manning deserved more opprobrium in the day, attwood deserves more tolerance now, the pendulum has swung too far
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cumquat may will not be commenting further on the allegations, Fri 10 Feb 2023, 10:38,
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Is Twitter not ultimately where that rot gets in?
Pick a side and fight in a format that doesn't have enough room for any context or nuance, and find out that extreme opinions get more likes. Get love-bombed by people on your side. Whenever I meet someone who's gone nuts like that, it's almost always down to their social media use.
Mastodon's alright.
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monkeon schmonkeon, Fri 10 Feb 2023, 11:02,
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i agree with you about twitter, though it's hard to say if its a cause of merely an amplified reflection
but academia's like twitter but without the trolls
there's those with extreme position and those too scared of piping up lest their careers suffer like others, no matter how reasonable they might be. I did sciences, but I had a lecturer, a scot who studied philosophy at cambridge, and we had a great time arguing about war and politics and sex. That's all gone. too problematic. somebody will get offended or get their ideas challenged.
As to my friend I don't think it was twtter, she's not mentioned it though who knows what she does privately. But she's genuinely supportive of TG rights, which comes from a good place, but just not willing to countence anyone who suggest s there might be more to it, which doesnt
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cumquat may will not be commenting further on the allegations, Fri 10 Feb 2023, 11:24,
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i was never much of a twitter user, only following a handful of gentlefolk
but mastodon is still social-media fresh air by comparison
(, Sun 12 Feb 2023, 11:17, Reply)
I suspect it is just because
it is the one that's a genuine bubble, but nice just seeing loads of nerdy & comedy stuff instead of lots of arguments.
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monkeon schmonkeon, Sun 12 Feb 2023, 19:27,
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The people who wanted to limit the range of history that the National Trust could present are "left wing supposed progressives"?
(, Fri 10 Feb 2023, 10:24, Reply)
Certainly not new - Disraeli said:
"A man who is not a liberal at sixteen has no heart a man who is not a conservative at sixty has no head" - when he crossed the floor to join the Tories.
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Invisible Wizard - 12th Level Errorer, Fri 10 Feb 2023, 6:58,
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What it meant to be a liberal or conservative at the time is very different to what those terms mean today.
I'm sure* most conservatives today would oppose invading numerous countries and massacring their indigenous populations, for example. Most conservatives today would be against slavery, against reparations for slave traders, against beating servants, against legalised rape, against institutional racism as an openly stated goal, etc., etc.
*ish.
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brb Monkhouse Stampede, Fri 10 Feb 2023, 21:05,
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Publicly, of course
What they think in the privacy of their own head may be another matter
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Invisible Wizard - 12th Level Errorer, Sat 11 Feb 2023, 11:59,
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i've often felt that small "c" conservatism deserves a bit more appreciation from the left
and sometimes i find myself unusually sympathetic to a tory mp trying to make a case for that kind of conservatism.
rory stewart is a good example, although i could never vote for the muppet
(, Sun 12 Feb 2023, 11:29, Reply)