"I have 14 kids, give me money"
Nadya Sulman, that woman who had octuplets via IVF even though she had a bunch of kids already.
She has been described as "perfectly normal apart from her obsession with babies"
This is her website. You have 3 choices:
1) Give her money
2) send her gifts
3) Leave a message
I find this quite offensive in a "I have no income and 14 kids, I deserve money" type way
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Crap Little Monkey Deathstar, so good they built it twice, Thu 12 Feb 2009, 11:51,
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the doctors who gave her IVF should have whatever medical license they have revoked
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HappyToast Groat froth, Thu 12 Feb 2009, 11:53,
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It is a very curious case.
But I wonder what the problem is, exactly. Is it that the mother lacks the means to bring them up? In that case, would we have the same reaction were she a millionaire? Is it that we think she must be somehow mentally ill? There's no independent evidence for that.
Besides - on both scores, there's no reason to think that the kids won't have lives worth living, so they've not been harmed in any way by being brought to birth.
The more I think about it, the more I find it a bit hard to see exactly what's wrong here.
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Enzyme is powered by sunlight, Thu 12 Feb 2009, 12:10,
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My concern would indeed be funding.
But then, I object to people begging (ala, a professional website with a donate button). Maybe I'm a hypocrite.
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Bats, Thu 12 Feb 2009, 12:12,
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Hmmm.
But then that raises an uncomfortable question - would you allow IVF to someone to have one child if you thought money was an issue? If not, that seems to imply that it's not the number that counts, so much as poor people breeding. And if that's the case, then the same would presumably apply to the naturally-reproducing as well. And that seems a bit itchy.
The point stands, too, that the kids are still overwhelmingly likely to have a life worth living, so they aren't going to be better off never having been born either way.
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Enzyme is powered by sunlight, Thu 12 Feb 2009, 12:16,
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In the end, it's a personal decision.
I wouldn't inflict my judgment on someone else who wanted a child. It wasn't the woman's idea to have eight; it happened. If a woman is able to go through the pain and the expense of IVF for her child(ren) then that's her prerogative, not mine.
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Bats, Thu 12 Feb 2009, 12:20,
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The Grandmother is raising the first 6 kids and has said that her daughter has lost the plot
she can't cope with her first ones (all 6 of which are crammed in to two small bedrooms), how is she going to deal with 8 more?
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HappyToast Groat froth, Thu 12 Feb 2009, 12:19,
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OK - that's a consideration
BUT... we don't know enough yet. Did the doctors who did the implantation know this? And, even if they did, does it count as a sufficient reason not to carry out the procedure? There are plenty of people who're suboptimal parents; the point stands that the kids are still better off existing than not existing.
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Enzyme is powered by sunlight, Thu 12 Feb 2009, 12:23,
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How do you reach the conclusion
that anybody is "better off" existing than not existing? Do you seriously rate life that highly?
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somegreybloke, Thu 12 Feb 2009, 14:13,
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^^^^^^^^^^THIS
And that's not the first time I've asked it.
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crackhouseceilidhband Fuck off back to Mumsnet, Thu 12 Feb 2009, 15:04,
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what's wrong
is that she created people and people are shit.
In other, more rational, objections - this whole ethical thing you do where you say that children have "not been harmed in any way by being brought to birth" seems to be based on the idea that everyone has a tolerable life by default or that existing is better than not existing. I disagree.
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crackhouseceilidhband Fuck off back to Mumsnet, Thu 12 Feb 2009, 15:03,
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She should do what Apu dand Manjula did and put them in the zoo
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the_log_knows ..to pay cheeses, to the leopards in your head, Thu 12 Feb 2009, 11:55,
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hahaha :)
Good old Mr Kidkill will look after them
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t0ria has forgotten how this all works, Thu 12 Feb 2009, 13:06,
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The fact that she was able to afford IVF in the first place ...
it beggars belief tbh ...
(, Thu 12 Feb 2009, 12:00, Reply)
Cheers for the link
I've pimped it: blogs.bmj.com/medical-ethics/
If you want the credit for finding it, gaz me your real name, and I'll update the post.
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Enzyme is powered by sunlight, Thu 12 Feb 2009, 12:06,
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don;t credit me
I found it off a news site.
As for what I think about it all:
I think that having a baby is one of the most important desicions any parent can take. Everything needs to me taken into consdieration, from how their lifestyles will change (kids come 1st) to will they be able to provide a healthy upbringing for them. People who rush this desicion because they "want" a child may not end up being the best parents in the world.
This woman has had kids for no other reason than her obbession with babies. It's not a good start for them especially since she;s already begging for money and has proven to be unable to look after her 1st 6.
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Crap Little Monkey Deathstar, so good they built it twice, Thu 12 Feb 2009, 13:05,
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not only that...
but how did she afford her big fat puffy bloaty surgery face?
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Kung_Fu_Russ ran out of amusing signatures on, Thu 12 Feb 2009, 12:06,
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She is Pete Burns.
AICMFP.
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LeightonJimbo has remembered his password!, Thu 12 Feb 2009, 12:15,
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"Give me money
so I can afford to pay for the Killeen Furtney Group to make me an even snazzier website."
killeenfurtneygroup.com/ - they look expensive.
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Bats, Thu 12 Feb 2009, 12:11,
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Wasn't her justification...
That she just wanted lots of kids? If you want to spend time with kids become a teacher, NOT a drain on society.
/firingsquad
(, Thu 12 Feb 2009, 12:15, Reply)
'Cept
All kids are a drain to begin with. And then they start paying taxes and contributing to the economy. There's also tax paid on the things they have bought for them. So, overall, they aren't a drain. They're contributors.
There's nothing to say (as far as I know) that the kids were conceived on the Medicare budget.
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Enzyme is powered by sunlight, Thu 12 Feb 2009, 12:18,
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I think that the actual consideration
should be on how she raises the kids. The snap judgement is that if that it "just feels wrong", drain on society, financially not sound, etc, but if we succumb to that, we may as well get a radio show on LBC.
As you mentioned, the statistics would show that overall the kids will be an asset, and not a drain on society. That's as long as they are raised and cared for, and encouraged to become members of society. If they suffer neglect because of their situation, then they are more likely to be a continued drain in adult life.
Surely then the debate should not be about whether a person has the right to have lots of kids, but on whether they (will be/are being) a decent, caring parent. I think that has more to do with the moral fibre of the parent. (If we wanted to be fair, we would have to run statistics models on numberofsiblings/qualityoflaterlife and base judgement on that).
Big families used to be more common, and people where less financially secure (my my grandparents raised 9 kids, my greatuncle/aunt had 12).
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masakatsu best of all the burger meats, Thu 12 Feb 2009, 12:55,
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Ain't he cute?
Well no he ain't, he's just another burden on the welfare state
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The Coast Of Yemen, Thu 12 Feb 2009, 12:49,
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I'll send her money on one condition...
She uses it to have a Hysterectomy
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Darklord, Thu 12 Feb 2009, 12:36,
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Oh rabble fucking rabble.
She's not begging, she's not a drain on society, it was a pre-meditated choice. She gained fame and is trying to capitalise on that through a website. If she wants that many kids and is able to look after them then whose business is it to say 'no' to that? I've seen no reports which provide any evidence to the contrary, only generic headlines trying to hold some non-existant moral high ground, and the rabbling commenters around the internet who are up in arms for no discernable reason.
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elephant rider property shark sighted!, Thu 12 Feb 2009, 12:43,
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I'll say no
Yes, there's an argument to be made that you can have as many kids as you like. But when you're using them as a simple money-making tool, then something is definitely wrong.
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The Coast Of Yemen, Thu 12 Feb 2009, 12:48,
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Fair play.
My understanding is that she wasn't looking for fame, rather she wanted loads of kids because she loves them. The odds of producing octuplets are so small she can hardly have expected to end up with fourteen, and has reacted to her moment in the spotlight by putting up a donation button.
I don't know what she thought though, these are vague assumptions. If she set out looking for attention, then I do think something's not right.
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elephant rider property shark sighted!, Thu 12 Feb 2009, 12:53,
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I thought the whole fuss about it was that she *wanted* as many kids as possible?
Anyway, there's a difference between putting up a donation button, and hiring a marketing company ;)
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The Coast Of Yemen, Thu 12 Feb 2009, 12:55,
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Heh, I don't even know enough about it to talk at length.
I don't really care, although I do think the general public response is a little over the top either way.
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elephant rider property shark sighted!, Thu 12 Feb 2009, 13:04,
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She gets by on food stamps and the disability assistance for three of her other kids. How is she not a drain on society?
(, Thu 12 Feb 2009, 12:56, Reply)
How does using disability assistance qualify one as a drain on society?
It's a perfectly valid and legal benefit to claim.
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elephant rider property shark sighted!, Thu 12 Feb 2009, 13:06,
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Because it's her only source of income, rather than a supplement to her normal income.
(, Thu 12 Feb 2009, 13:10, Reply)
"The octuplets' maternal grandfather, Edward Doud Suleman, in his early 60s and identifying himself as a former Iraqi military man, says he is returning to his native Iraq as a translator and driver in order to financially support his daughter and her children."
Other relatives are assisting with raising the children, and according to numerous sources, she has been offered lucrative book deals and TV spots. She'll make more from these than most people will in their life.
The issue isn't that she is a drain on society, it's whether or not she has acted responsibly, and that the task of raising fourteen children as a single mother is beyond her.
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elephant rider property shark sighted!, Thu 12 Feb 2009, 13:20,
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So she's OK as long as we worship her and granddad leaves the country to get another job?
She's clearly a giant fucking sponge.
(, Thu 12 Feb 2009, 13:42, Reply)
I think I'll give her a piece of my mind.
She obviously has none of her own.
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girlinthehole, Thu 12 Feb 2009, 13:09,
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She seems to have an obsession with babies, as said above
so what the fuck happens to the kids when they become teenagers?
(, Thu 12 Feb 2009, 13:10, Reply)