Definitely, completely agree with the lack of understanding of depression
There was that Daily Mail article some one posted a while back where some idiot was saying "people think its fashionable to be depressed", and basicly said people should "snap out of it".
Depression isn't just people 'feeling sorry for them selves', I suppose one way to describe it is a disease that causes errors in proccessing events, feelings etc. Thus when people are depressed they catastrophise the smallest things, more inclined to make assumptions as to what other people are thinking, a complete lack of perspective etc.
Actually there's a bit that explains the parity between the kind of processing in a clinically depressed patients and a schizophrenic patients in this book Ive got: (Feeling Good, by David Burns, I really recommend it)
" Depressed individuals were compared with schizophrenic patients and with undepressed persons in their ability to interpret the meaning of a number of proverbs, such as "a stitch in time saves nine". Both the schizophrenic and depressed patients made many logical errors and had difficulty in extracting the meaning of the proverbs. They were overly concrete and couldn't make accurate generalizations. Although the severity of the defect was obviously less profound and bizzarre in the depressed patients than in the schizophrenic group, the depressed individuals were clearly abnormal as compared with the normal subjects"
I think there should be more information about what Clinical Depression is, not only so people like that Daily Mail bitch shut the hell up, but I think (certainly with my self) that knowing what is actually going on with your self when you're depressed can actually help you better find ways to cope with it. I think GP's need more training in how to cope with and diagnose clinically depressed patients. The amount of times I've heard of doctors prescribe pills to friends who aren't clinically depressed but are simply struggling to adjust to break ups and stuff, I think its negligence. And other times when serious clinical depression has gone unchecked and led to the worst possible outcome, just beyond frustration. And don't expect it to get any better, Big Society = Mental Health care being increasingly dealt with by underfunded charities...
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Jorvic, Sun 6 Mar 2011, 15:29,
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I'm not ashamed
to admit I suffer 'the black dog', as Churchill called it. But now I know what it is, and what it does, it doesn't seem to effect me as much, or as often. I see it coming now and I take measures to get me through. Either they work or i'm just getting better; who knows?
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TheSundaeLunch I'm a fucking shrub, alright?, Sun 6 Mar 2011, 15:43,
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I'm stricken too. Don't cope too well but it's nice to be able to say so.
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Bela Lugosi's Dad, Sun 6 Mar 2011, 15:54,
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Knowing it
is half way to coping with it.
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TheSundaeLunch I'm a fucking shrub, alright?, Sun 6 Mar 2011, 15:57,
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Exactly, I'd say it would be the coping strategies
I don't think its something that can just fix it's self over time (though I may be wrong). But stuff like Cognitive Behavioural Therapy has been proven to be extremely effective, more so than medication in a lot of cases, and essentially CBT is just a method of creating coping strategies and understanding the processes that are going on.
The problem is the stigma that goes along with mental illness, and what I think is terrible is the stigma that is still with depression given the sheer numbers of people that suffer from it. I've been trying to handle it my self since I was first diagnosed, though my GP back then did handle it incredibly well, its been going on for too long now, and I feel like I should start some proper CBT with a therapist to sort it out once and for all (though the book Feeling good which started the whole CBT thing has helped). Problem is my cousin recently got a mortgage, and obviously had to get Life Insurance to get it, one inconsequential mention of 'anxiety' on her medical records got her life insurance
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Jorvic, Sun 6 Mar 2011, 15:59,
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Officially
I don't believe insurance companies can access any info you don't give them. This was one of the arguments about ID cards with medical records on; then they could. However if you fail to tell them then make a claim they might not pay. But only if they prove it was a pre-existing condition that you were aware of. Some insist on a medical, so they will know all about you from that. But my understanding is that a doctor will only give out information with your permission. For now, anyway. When big Brother really gets rolling.... *tin foil hat on*
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TheSundaeLunch I'm a fucking shrub, alright?, Sun 6 Mar 2011, 16:33,
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One time I applied for a job at the civil service,
and with the letter I got inviting me to the interview came a form asking me for sign over to them the right to access my medical records. Fuck that, I thought. At the very least offer me a position first.
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Moon Girl Technologies horrendous beanbag, Sun 6 Mar 2011, 16:55,
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Very true
I've had dark periods most of my life, but had pretty much always managed to establish a 'baseline' - i.e. when I start to notice I'm slipping, I set a 'things that I must keep going no matter what' i.e. Job etc. And letting the other parts of life slide a bit with a reduced level of guilt.
Due to circumstances I had a major period in the last two years, that pretty much stopped me from managing any aspect of my life. Dark days indeed, and very hard to explain to people who just want to see you getting on with your life. Very hard to be able to go for a job interview when a knock on the door or a telephone call leads to massive panic.
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very good post
I can empathise with a lot of points made there, will certainly look out for the book you mentioned.
One point though.. "underfunded charities" - that's not necessarily so. The charities in my experience are exceptionally well funded (maybe not in specifically mental health, but certainly in other areas), but they are stupendously bad at managing themselves or their employees. I mean catastrophically bad. I'd love to whistle blow about one particular charity which is wasting huge sums of money in the name of "charidy" ... but I won't just yet!
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wideeye slightly pickled, Sun 6 Mar 2011, 15:55,
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Ha, no doubt you're right
Had a friend who did the whole cold calling thing for charities. He'd get a years subscription from these people, problem is it would take that years subscription to pay the company he worked for. Criminal I think, if I was donating to a charity in that way I'd want every penny to actually go to the charity.
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Jorvic, Sun 6 Mar 2011, 16:03,
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And I'd like to correct that as well!
In my experience, the large charities may have the enviable position of being able to waste money, but almost all of the ones I have worked with have been painfully underfunded and often the people working in them do so for free or just enough to cover their costs..........
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Si o doom Fund me! No catering cost involved! bit.ly/1bFtzN2, Sun 6 Mar 2011, 16:14,
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I know of one
major charity that is close to criminal in its property dealings and there are more than a few whose execs earn more than MPs.
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TheSundaeLunch I'm a fucking shrub, alright?, Sun 6 Mar 2011, 16:24,
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I don't doubt it, I have seen some bloody stupid usage of funds in my time
But I tend to work with smaller charities and someone once told me off for it! Saying that its crazy that they should all get paid when I don't and I was being stupid, they all get paid crazy amounts, when i mentioned that my mum was the chair of the charity and it she takes no money at all from it he shut up.
I realise that the statement above was meant for the large charities, often the ones that can afford street canvassers, but there is a large percentage of charities out there that struggle to fund anything, they often have a budet that allows them to survive this year and then without fresh funding and help every year, simply don;t exist!
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Si o doom Fund me! No catering cost involved! bit.ly/1bFtzN2, Sun 6 Mar 2011, 16:30,
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I actually run a charity!
So i know what you are saying. I do get paid; but I work 7 days a week and some evenings too. Even some nights if the alarms go off! For that I get just under 17k to live on. I live alone and have a mortgage. I wouldn't do another job for twice the money, don't get me wrong, but it makes my blood boil to see the execs of big charaties taking 100k a year home.
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TheSundaeLunch I'm a fucking shrub, alright?, Sun 6 Mar 2011, 16:41,
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Couldn't agree more!
That's why it'll all change when I sweep to power...........
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Si o doom Fund me! No catering cost involved! bit.ly/1bFtzN2, Sun 6 Mar 2011, 16:55,
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One time I was in a pub and the guy at the next table
was trying to argue that depressed people simply "couldn't be bothered". Well I guess that's a symptom of depression, but I really don't know why it's so difficult for people to understand, that sometimes people get chronically down in the dumps for no external reasons that they can do anything about.
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Moon Girl Technologies horrendous beanbag, Sun 6 Mar 2011, 16:49,
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Yup
Surely most people will know at least one person who has committed suicide for instance? You can't get more of a stark example that something more than just "being a bit glum" is going on?
This is probably the most moving and expressive ways of describing it I've seen: (cant remember who posted the Taylor Mali stuff a while back, but thanks for introducing me to him, just brilliant)
www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESrzN-JkKsM
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Jorvic, Sun 6 Mar 2011, 17:20,
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I don't think I know anyone who killed themselves,
I know people who have made attempts. My old housemate used to invite all his goth friends round for parties and we had to hide all the razor blades to stop them cutting themselves in the bathroom. But then we realised it was better to leave them there because they'd just smash our glasses instead, and a clean razor blade is probably a better thing for them to do it with.
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Moon Girl Technologies horrendous beanbag, Sun 6 Mar 2011, 17:40,
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Eesh, not the kind of party I'de like to go to :S
Maybe I'm unusual in that I've known two, a friend and an uncle, as well as seeing the aftermath of a friends father's suicide. One of those things, when you're out of an episode you say "I could never do that to my friends and family", just when you're in an episode you simply don't see it in those terms, quite the opposite infact. Thus the interesting parity with schizophrenia, how you're whole understanding of your life can be totally turned on its head? Its a very powerful thing, which is why I think there should be a lot more understanding of it, and more attempts to break down the taboos surrounding it. I think Stephen Fry's documentary a few years ago was very good at that, need more to be made though.
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Jorvic, Sun 6 Mar 2011, 17:50,
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I never got so bad as to seriously consider killing myself,
I just wanted my life to stop being terrible. And it was terrible. I was never convinced it was only something wrong with my brain, but my doc just put me on one sort of pills after another as if eventually we'd find the right one that would magically stop me from being a social outcast. It made me feel dismissed, this assumption that my feelings were only down to bad chemicals, maybe for some people that is the case but just as happy people can't understand that there can be something wrong with your thinking, doctors don't seem to get that there can be something wrong with your experiences. They are trained to imagine you as a machine, I guess.
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Moon Girl Technologies horrendous beanbag, Sun 6 Mar 2011, 18:02,
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circumstances don't help.
www.b3ta.com/questions/letterstheywillneverread/post658138
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TheSundaeLunch I'm a fucking shrub, alright?, Sun 6 Mar 2011, 18:21,
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I don't get what you are telling me here,
this reads like a circumstance, and not a chemical. Sadly, this circumstance is in the past and therefore not liable to change, although perhaps you can change your interpretation of it.
Nevertheless, I'm not saying that chemicals are never the problem, and circumstances always are, I'm saying that circumstances were my problem, and there is not a one-size-fits-all solution to every case of depression. Some people do get wonky brain chemistry. Other people get dealt a genuinely shit hand now and then.
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Moon Girl Technologies horrendous beanbag, Sun 6 Mar 2011, 18:27,
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And that was a genuinely shit hand that you got dealt right there,
but it really wasn't your fault, as much as you feel that it was the consequence of your decision, no reasonable person could possibly expect you to have foreseen it.
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Moon Girl Technologies horrendous beanbag, Sun 6 Mar 2011, 18:44,
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Sorry to hear that Sundae
That's something no one should feel responsibility for, especially from the age of 15. Hope you're working through it?
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Jorvic, Sun 6 Mar 2011, 18:34,
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Long time ago now.
But I feel it, most days. Sometimes for 20 seconds, sometimes longer.
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TheSundaeLunch I'm a fucking shrub, alright?, Sun 6 Mar 2011, 18:46,
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I suppose it boils down to the nature nurture thing?
I think certainly people can be genetically predisposed to depression (there's a family history of it with me, and I cant think of any experiences per say that could have caused it) but also I think someone's experiences definitely can be a major if not all encompassing factor, which is possibly where CBT can be most effective?
Back when I did Psychology AS level there was a good explanation of another way of seeing the nature nurture argument. With Autism it was argued that its a bit like seed which needs the right conditions to grow? So someone could be genetically predisposed towards autism but it would require certain experiences (I'd imagine difficult to avoid or define experiences) for that predisposition to develop into autism?
I'm sorry to hear that your experience with your doctor left you feeling that way? I guess there are as many types of depression as there are people, there's no Haynes manual for the mind. GPs obviously have to know a certain amount about a lot, which is why there needs to be more mental health care provision so they can refer patients to more specialist diagnosis?
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Jorvic, Sun 6 Mar 2011, 18:25,
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I imagine that each side can induce the other,
futile circumstances disturb your brain chemistry, and brain chemistry makes your circumstances seem more futile than they really are. Perhaps when this happens it doesn't matter so much which one came first as long as you can break the cycle, but if the original cause is still there when you come off the meds, you'll only end up back on them again.
I had to practically beg to be referred to a specialist, and then I was on a waiting list for months, and eventually my therapist was bloody useless.
What I really needed was some kind of coaching in my social skills, because basically I've been bullied since I started school with jam jar glasses and a funny accent, was too intellectual for my own popularity at a rough state comprehensive, and then wound up in a university with a seeming public-school educated majority. As a result I ended up finding it difficult to relate to people face-to-face.
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Moon Girl Technologies horrendous beanbag, Sun 6 Mar 2011, 18:38,
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I think what you were talking about is the difference between reactive depression and clinical depression
The two can overlap but anti-depressants are only really effective for clinical depression.
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Sheriff John Bunnell https://twitter.com/thewonderfulgam, Mon 7 Mar 2011, 0:18,
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A B3tan
commited suicide not too long ago. Seemed a nice guy too; just mixed up. Depression and suicide don't always go hand in hand. One of the clever agonies of depression is knowing how suicide will make others feel. There were times I considered it. But to die that way would make my dad think he had failed, and he hadn't. Or some poor train driver who might always wonder if he could have stopped in time. Even in death, you heap pain on others. The sort of pain that you can't stand in the first place. It is no win.
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TheSundaeLunch I'm a fucking shrub, alright?, Sun 6 Mar 2011, 18:00,
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I think my dad thinks that anyway,
he keeps trying to convince me I'm autistic or something for having no ambition, and I don't think my mum will ever forgive me for not wanting to learn a musical instrument when I was at school.
I keep meaning to read this guy's book
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Moon Girl Technologies horrendous beanbag, Sun 6 Mar 2011, 18:06,
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