Right. Extremism.
I'm a Christian, I'll get that one out of the way first off. I go to church, enjoy a drink with the vicar and generally enjoy it all. If it's not for you that's fine, if you prefer to be Jewish, Muslim etc, that's also fine.

But do you know what I really, really can't fucking stand.
Extremists. Extremists are cunts. Please don't ram your opinions in other peoples faces, try being a bit more modest, and respect other people views. Be tolerant.
Hmm, that's a nice word, I'll say it again. Tolerant.
Do I know everything? No, of course I don't. Funny enough, nor do you. Seem we're both on a level peg there.

Extremism takes many faces, Christians, Muslims (seems popular these days), Jehovah's Witnesses etc.
But there's another one that often gets overlooked, and that's the Extreme Atheist.

Fuck me. Don't you fuckers go on, as bad, if not worse than many Christians.

"Do you believe in God?"
"Why, yes I do, why do you ask?"
"He doesn't exist! I can prove it! You're brain washed! ETC ETC RANT RANT"

You're just as bad as the others. If you believe that, that's fine. But please respect my views and I'll respect yours.

Extremists of any nature are twats


Length? Well. It’s not extreme...
(SpangoTheWonderBadger is brewing beer, Thu 26 Mar 2009, 14:53, 33 replies)

Agreed
But I've never seen one like that.
Most of the time it's:

""Do you believe in God?"
"Why, yes I do, why do you ask?"
"I find it interesting. Why do you belive?" - and then proceed to pick apart their answers.

But the question of respect... That's another game entirely.
Why should we automatically respect someone's belief, particularly when we see it as being very odd and based on nonsense?
I'm not advocating calling someone a cunt and laughing in their face, but if someone's convictions are so strong then it shouldn't matter when we question them and make them think about it.
(tweebianmonkey Should be known as Widget, Thu 26 Mar 2009, 15:03, closed)

You have some fair points.
I'm happy to discuss my faith and have a constructive argument with people (when in the mood). I don't have all the answers, and lot of it can be open to interpretation.
Should we automatically respect someone's belief? I think yes. But find out more, ask some questions. It's all about asking the right questions to open dialog and can be interesting to both sides.
"Why do you believe that?" is a lot better than "You're wrong to believe that because".
I think it comes down to sensitivity of someone's belief, whatever it is.
(SpangoTheWonderBadger is brewing beer, Thu 26 Mar 2009, 15:11, closed)

As an atheist
I am prepared to have a constructive reasoned argument with you (although sadly not at the moment, I've got a lot to do!) I don't take the approach outlined in your original post by any means.

However, I don't respect your beliefs in the slightest. I respect your right to hold them, but I don't respect them or credit them with any worth. Apologies if that offends you, but that's the conclusion I've come to after thinking the subject through, doing a lot of reading and talking to a lot of people about it.

I don't believe the fallacy that everyone has the right for their system of belief to be respected. Where do you draw the line? What if you believe that you need to eat thirteen babies a day to purify your soul, or that the moon is made of cheese, the world's problems are the fault of the Jews, or that the government is spying on you which is why you have to wear a tinfoil hat? Do you expect me to respect these ideas purely because you hold them?
(username1, Thu 26 Mar 2009, 15:18, closed)

Fair point.
Seems to be a live and let live line of view, which I'm all for (I also have lots to do, this SAN wont design itself...).
(SpangoTheWonderBadger is brewing beer, Thu 26 Mar 2009, 15:26, closed)

Yep
My only beef is when it spills over into other people's lives and is used to exert power and promote prejudice.

As far as the actual views go, if you want to believe your kitchen worktop created the world and gives you advice every morning over a cup of tea, fair enough if that's what gets you through the day. As long as you're not going round murdering people for refusing to listen to the word of the worktop, all fine by me.

[Side note: and haha, I am drawing up the topology of my planned new fibre optic network backbone. Sounds like we have fairly similar jobs]
(username1, Thu 26 Mar 2009, 15:34, closed)

God is a Kitchen Worktop?
Well, that IS news, I off to tell the vicar! :)

(Yeah, I'm looking into using iSCSI and virtual storage plus other goodies. I dream of FC)
(SpangoTheWonderBadger is brewing beer, Thu 26 Mar 2009, 15:59, closed)

^ this (username1's point)
That's the reason beliefs shouldn't be respected.
I recently had an argument with someone who took it too far though.
"Well you're saying NO belief should be respected! Including that opinion!"
While this is true, there are some beliefs that are just standard, and you look stupid if you don't respect them. ie "You fuckwit you think that the sky is blue! What a moron!" - Extreme example, but it's what they meant.
Anyway.

Yes, the respect for someone to hold the belief is where the respect ends I'm afraid.
(tweebianmonkey Should be known as Widget, Thu 26 Mar 2009, 15:30, closed)

.
Respect is not commanded, it is earned. Religious/superstitious beliefs do not earn it. Missing this fact is responsible for every atrocity you'll find on this site: www.whatstheharm.net/

Take an African who has caught AIDs since the Pope ran around telling people that it was a worse to use condoms than it was for millions of people to keep dying - was he right to respect the Pope's beliefs? did he even know the Pope's beliefs, or did some other 'tolerant' person interfere with this man's life before he even knew about it?

Tolerance of idiocy kills. As someone who is unable to pretend that that's not happening, it is my duty to preach and rant and offend and rouse, until such time as your personal insecurities are solved without the sacrifice of innocents.

(There you go - I'm sure there's enough stereotype in there for you to straw-man yourself out of acknowledging that it ever happens like that. Go nuts.)
(misanthrope is so adjective he's verbing nouns!, Thu 26 Mar 2009, 15:12, closed)

I'm not saying Religion
gets it right. That's a different argument, I think. But there is a lot of good done by many, many religious groups and that should be taken into account and not dismissed.
Many actions get carried out in religion's name just for convenience sake.
Personally, I think the Pope was way off course.
(SpangoTheWonderBadger is brewing beer, Thu 26 Mar 2009, 15:24, closed)

Another aside: "a lot of good done by many, many religious groups"
Good. Those things should be done anyway.
But when questioned about why they do those things... That's where respect is lost.
\edit - what Cockbrush said below, is the point I was trying to make.
(tweebianmonkey Should be known as Widget, Thu 26 Mar 2009, 15:33, closed)

Not sure what you're saying there.
Are you saying that they're helping other people but also saying you must join the church etc?
And yes, those things should be done anyway, agreed.
(SpangoTheWonderBadger is brewing beer, Thu 26 Mar 2009, 15:36, closed)

Nah not really.
Consider:
"I helped a village in Africa get a clean water supply."
"Good! That's commendable."
"Yes, I believe in doing Jeebus' work."

Personally I find it far more commendable to do those things out of a feeling of solidarity for humanity, rather than because I was told to.
And also, in many cases, because otherwise I'd go to hell.

But Cockbrush said it better...
(tweebianmonkey Should be known as Widget, Thu 26 Mar 2009, 15:40, closed)

That's fine.
I'd help because I can, not because Jesus told me.
But some would argue that I'd be helping because of Jesus.
(SpangoTheWonderBadger is brewing beer, Thu 26 Mar 2009, 15:46, closed)

You are right
There is a lot of good done by many, many religious groups. I just prefer to credit the people doing the good, not their belief system.
(Vice Admiral Sir Charles Cockbrush KCB MBE DSO, who is finding it increasingly difficult to log into b3ta.com wants to duck your aunt and kick your puppy, Thu 26 Mar 2009, 15:35, closed)

.
"But there is a lot of good done by many, many religious groups and that should be taken into account"

A lot of good is done by the religious, true, as is a lot of bad. But, here's the rub: Would these people stop doing good if they weren't god-fearing? Those who wouldn't stop are not good because of religion, they are good people who just happen to be religious. Those who would stop are not good, they are afraid of the consequences of not doing good. There's a world of difference.

"Many actions get carried out in religion's name just for convenience sake.
Personally, I think the Pope was way off course"

But the Popes condemnation of condoms* was not one of those "in religion's name for the sake of it" actions - it's a religious position (every sperm is sacred) forced down the throats of innocents, costing many, many lives. That shit ain't right, and it's not defensible under the tolerance/respect-of-opinions ticket.

If that makes me a preachy atheist, so be it. If that makes me an extremist, so be it.
As little as ranting anonymously does, I will not watch quietly from the sidelines as people die for the sake of other people's opinions.

*try saying that when you're pissed...
(misanthrope is so adjective he's verbing nouns!, Thu 26 Mar 2009, 15:45, closed)

I don't think
it makes you a preachy atheist, you put forward a very valid point about the Pope. When I heard it being announced I just groaned, I mean, really, is the RC Church's view really going to help people? Dear God no!
(SpangoTheWonderBadger is brewing beer, Thu 26 Mar 2009, 15:51, closed)

.
Another thread. Sorry, I wasn't clear. But I am a preachy atheist, and I ain't sorry about it ;)
(misanthrope is so adjective he's verbing nouns!, Thu 26 Mar 2009, 16:15, closed)

You make good points
but I don't think extremist atheists do get overlooked at all. Particularly when judged by the answers to this QOTW.

Personally, I don't believe in God, but that has nothing to do with what I see as my right to mock and ridicule every facet of the existence of every single person I come in contact with.

I'm an equal opportunities bastard.

Also, as my learned colleague puts forth: respect must be earned.

I mainly address this at middle-aged women who think that it is their right to be obnoxious and barge in front of me while shopping.

and know-it-all young mothers. I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Just because you have fired out some repugnant crotch-fruit does not make you an authority on anything, nor does it make you in charge.
( Vipros. clever got me this far, then tricky got me in, Thu 26 Mar 2009, 15:14, closed)

Heh
"I'm an equal opportunities bastard"
That I like (shakes your hand).
(SpangoTheWonderBadger is brewing beer, Thu 26 Mar 2009, 15:28, closed)

"speaking as a mother..."
Bailey ftw!
(tweebianmonkey Should be known as Widget, Thu 26 Mar 2009, 15:32, closed)

Are you me, Vipros?
A window into my own misanthropic mind, there.

*is slightly unnerved*
( Monty Boyce, My cheese game is strong, Thu 26 Mar 2009, 15:37, closed)

you're not the first b3tan to ask if I am them
I'm beginning to wonder...


Seen the Red Dwarf episode Legion?

what I'm like depends on who is online at the time ;-)
( Vipros. clever got me this far, then tricky got me in, Thu 26 Mar 2009, 15:39, closed)

Never 'got' Red Dwarf, for some reason
To me the only funny thing Craig Charles has done is his now-famous famous Manchester-London crack-wank-in-a-taxi marathon.

That and the rape, of course.
( Monty Boyce, My cheese game is strong, Thu 26 Mar 2009, 15:58, closed)

Ahem...
... I don't know if I'm an extreme atheist: I have no time for sloppy arguments, though, and I think that theistic arguments are sloppy. I've not seen one that isn't.

Having said that - I'm getting more and more disenchanted with Dawkins/ Meyers/ The Reason Project et al because of their misuse of moral argumentation against religion. (See my post on p1 for this.) Metaphysically and epistemologically, it's an open-and-shut case. No god; no supernature. But you can't get there from an appeal to morality - and that's a mistake that a lot of the atheist shrills make.
( Enzyme is powered by sunlight, Thu 26 Mar 2009, 15:37, closed)

"No, the persistence of evil actions by religious people is not an argument against religion."
True, but it's a good starting point to bring religion down from it's high horse.
(tweebianmonkey Should be known as Widget, Thu 26 Mar 2009, 15:42, closed)

I wouldn't
pick an discussion with you, tbh. You'd run rings around me. But I do like the idea of the the traditional arguments being shelved because they don't make any sense. Perhaps it could stimulate a more sophisticated discuss? But not with me, I'm an idiot.
(SpangoTheWonderBadger is brewing beer, Thu 26 Mar 2009, 15:44, closed)

Cheers
to all that replied, it's been interesting.

And as Bob said "It's good to talk."
(SpangoTheWonderBadger is brewing beer, Thu 26 Mar 2009, 16:00, closed)

them extremists
i think you're right. the extreme, immoderate, or intollerant of any persuasion are awful.

in general i have no problem with people of faith, its usually the orgaised bit of the organised religion. ho hum.

(no god for me ta, just in case you hadn't guessed)
(itsOnlyGoingToGetHairier, Thu 26 Mar 2009, 16:12, closed)

I'm glad
someone finally said this. I've been only vaguely dipping into the QOTW this week, as I just knew it would wind me up. Militant atheism is just as much religious extremism as the minority - and it is a minority, albeit an upsettingly vocal one - of Christians who yell at you in the street.

Arg, fuck it. It's probably all been said anyway. I do get very bored with people who've swallowed Dr Dawkins (why exactly a biologist is considered an authority on theology I've no idea, btw; as Terry Eagleton said it's rather like someone who's read The Book of British Birds calling themselves a seminal naturalist ) telling me my beliefs are stupid and deluded when in fact neither of us know the real truth. I choose to believe, you choose not to. That's fine by me, but it seems ironic that it's only ever atheists that have ever attempted to ram anything down my throat.
Er.
I could have chosen a more fortunate phrase there.
(jennymnemonic, Thu 26 Mar 2009, 16:52, closed)

You could have.
But it wouldn't have made me smile so much. :)
(SpangoTheWonderBadger is brewing beer, Thu 26 Mar 2009, 17:01, closed)

.
Biology has been an excellent qualification for the subject of theology since 1859.
(misanthrope is so adjective he's verbing nouns!, Thu 26 Mar 2009, 17:12, closed)

.
potty fingers.
( browser still relating boring anecdotes into a void on, Thu 26 Mar 2009, 17:14, closed)

.
Well said Spango.
(Komsomol, Thu 26 Mar 2009, 17:26, closed)