Agreed on all points.
With the added question: Why do we have to respect business men for being good at what they do? Most of what they do is shafting people anyway and surely their many millions are reward enough, it's not like they set up a business empire to benefit us.
( CQ Knows the truth, all of it., Thu 6 Oct 2011, 11:13, 4 replies, latest was 14 years ago)

Haha bitter at being the tea boy

( Light In Chains maker of the ikea sofa, Thu 6 Oct 2011, 11:24, Reply)

I imagine it's the creation of jobs and extra taxes they pay
good for the economy and that
(Quinton had to abandon other account as i broke it, Thu 6 Oct 2011, 11:25, Reply)

Which is of course the reason they do it.
I'm not saying they should be hated for it, just that the primary motivation is not about philanthropy. Being f=good at making money is no more admirable than being good at cleaning toilets, arguable less so because it has greater intrinsic rewards.
( CQ Knows the truth, all of it., Thu 6 Oct 2011, 11:30, Reply)

I'm sure the people benefiting from Bill Gates being an all round nice guy would happily call you a myopic moron

( Light In Chains maker of the ikea sofa, Thu 6 Oct 2011, 11:33, Reply)

there is a lot more skill in making money than in cleaning the bogs
and by making money, his company has provided work for thosands of people, paid millions in tax and has made the world a shinier place
( Naked Ape call me Caitlyn, Thu 6 Oct 2011, 11:35, Reply)

This is all true.
and I can see respect for skill (although it leaves me cold in the same way skill at football does), but the tax is not a voluntary donation is it? It's something the government forces you to pay. Now the charitable works of someone like Bill Gates, for example are laudable, because they are done as a free choice.
( CQ Knows the truth, all of it., Thu 6 Oct 2011, 11:42, Reply)

Most of that fortune came from illegal
monopolistic business practices. I'm a Windows developer but I still say he's an arse.
( djtrialprice, Thu 6 Oct 2011, 11:57, Reply)

Double glazing salesmen eh?
well whatever title makes you feel better about ripping off old ladies
( Naked Ape call me Caitlyn, Thu 6 Oct 2011, 11:58, Reply)

Apple are every bit as monopolistic as Windows were/are
But Apple are very, very good at presenting what they're doing as being the next greatest thing and the reinvention of the wheel.

The fact that Apple will only let you play stuff bought through their own store and you can only reliably synch Apple products with other Apple products passes most people by.

Edit: They don't even support Flash, so you have to view the iInternet, too.
( Kroney, Thu 6 Oct 2011, 12:00, Reply)

That's not a monopoly
That's, "We make the hardware, we make the software, it works how we want it to." Windows got its market share from being a platform that could run on anyone's hardware. And when they had the majority of the desktop market they abused their position. The EU didn't fine them several billion Euros for shits and giggles.

Now if you'll excuse me, I have lots of old ladies to rip off.
( djtrialprice, Thu 6 Oct 2011, 12:09, Reply)

All true
same is true of apple as far as I know, except they keep it all.
( CQ Knows the truth, all of it., Thu 6 Oct 2011, 12:09, Reply)

Microsoft keeps it all, it's Bill who gives his own money away.

( djtrialprice, Thu 6 Oct 2011, 12:32, Reply)

fair enough.
Still more that Steve does.
( CQ Knows the truth, all of it., Thu 6 Oct 2011, 12:44, Reply)

Spoken like a true commie

( Naked Ape call me Caitlyn, Thu 6 Oct 2011, 11:30, Reply)

True, true.
Fell free to disagree, I'm up for a rational argument on this one, but I can't see anything massively praiseworthy in making tons of money. Not to say you shouldn't do it, but surely you do it to make your self money, rather than fro any other reason.
( CQ Knows the truth, all of it., Thu 6 Oct 2011, 11:34, Reply)

I don't see what's wrong with wanting to be successful?

( Naked Ape call me Caitlyn, Thu 6 Oct 2011, 11:35, Reply)

I don't think I said there was anything wrong with it.
I don't see why it should command respect either.
( CQ Knows the truth, all of it., Thu 6 Oct 2011, 11:39, Reply)

Because the successful person has worked hard and achieved a lot
I'm not saying they should be getting Nobel prizes, but i respect the husband and wife who started my company and grew it into a global market leader, providing jobs for it's staff from the Uk to india and the US and value for our clients that is ultimately passed onto nyou, the consumer.
( Naked Ape call me Caitlyn, Thu 6 Oct 2011, 11:48, Reply)

Success is a reward for achieving your objectives, and it's respect-worthy to do something you set out to do.

( G/PP 💩💩💩💩💩&#128, Thu 6 Oct 2011, 13:18, Reply)

That's not why people are gushing over this guy
I'm writing this post on an HTC phone. A phone which would not exist were it not for the smartphone market that came from Apple's success. Same goes for mp3 players and loads of other stuff. There are very few companies who can make a product people want to queue in the middle of the night to get hold of.
( djtrialprice, Thu 6 Oct 2011, 11:39, Reply)

Unless you live in bongo bongo land
and the company in question makes food.
( djtrialprice, Thu 6 Oct 2011, 11:40, Reply)

1: makes vibrator based on Ape penis
2: Hypes
3: Opens swish store
4: ???????
5: Cock Profits
( Naked Ape call me Caitlyn, Thu 6 Oct 2011, 11:40, Reply)

You'll need to make it bigger than the actual version
if you want it to house any batteries.
( djtrialprice, Thu 6 Oct 2011, 11:44, Reply)

It's mains powered

( Naked Ape call me Caitlyn, Thu 6 Oct 2011, 11:46, Reply)

Smartphones, possibly
although I suspect there were smart phones around before the iPhone, but MP3 players were around (and better) before the iPod, I had one, it was very nice thank you.
( CQ Knows the truth, all of it., Thu 6 Oct 2011, 11:44, Reply)

I had a Rio, which I loved
but they went bust
( Naked Ape call me Caitlyn, Thu 6 Oct 2011, 11:46, Reply)

Creative MP3 players
were, and possibly are awesome. The aluminium fag packet I had was better (for my tastes anyway) than an iPod and far cheaper.
( CQ Knows the truth, all of it., Thu 6 Oct 2011, 11:48, Reply)

I had an Archos 10 Jukebox
I loved it. But mp3 players as a concept didn't truly take off until after Apple got in there. Same with phones. I can't remember the exact quote but around the time of the first iPhone release there was a company statement from Nokia along the lines of, "We're not worried, we're the biggest phone maker in the world, we know what our customers want." No they didn't! Apple raise the bar in pretty much every area they try to go for.

I've never bought an Apple product and I doubt I ever will but I appreciate what they've done for technology.
( djtrialprice, Thu 6 Oct 2011, 11:53, Reply)

They didn't invent the MP3, they didn't even invent the MP3 player.
But they turned it into a viable product for the masses and attached an ecosystem to it that allowed for people to get hold of the music legally and fairly.
( G/PP 💩💩💩💩💩&#128, Thu 6 Oct 2011, 13:08, Reply)

Oh fuck off.
Shafting people? Oh', yeah', 'cus if wasn't for that pesky buisnessman doing the work and taking the risks that you don't do, and getting rewarded for it.... you would have done that yourself and been in their shoes.

Forget about the millions they bring to the economy that pays for hospitals, schools, police, etc.
Forget about the 100s of 1000s that have employment because of the success of those buisness men.
Forget the huge amounts of charity that gets donated through buisness.

One attitude I fucking hate is the "They all screw over the little guy", it's that kind of OH WOE IS MEism that really gets me. They're the ones who mortgaged everything they got to get where they are, they're the ones who are up all night worrying about having to sack people the next day.
( G/PP 💩💩💩💩💩&#128, Thu 6 Oct 2011, 13:05, Reply)

Well put.
It is incredibly stressful (and also incredibly rewarding at times) establishing and growing a business.
( Fucking hell Jeff I am not a robot, Thu 6 Oct 2011, 13:07, Reply)

And I never said doing it was a bad thing
Nor does it make you a saint, we all do stressful stuff, very rarely does it gain us respect, or for that matter money.

Steve Jobs did hard things, some of them I probably couldn't have done had I wanted to, some of them I'd not have chosen to do if I could. He did very well out of it, arguably the world did well out of it too.

I would, however argue that the world doing well out of it was not his primary motivation, or even his secondary one. Thus he was not morally a better person for it.

I have more respect for people who do hard thankless jobs for little pay, with the motivation of helping others.
( CQ Knows the truth, all of it., Thu 6 Oct 2011, 13:19, Reply)

I also have respect for people who do hard thankless jobs for little pay, with the motivation of helping others.

I also have respect for those who take risks (remortgage, borrow etc.) to get something going and importantly create employment for other people. Yes I have made money from having my own business - not as much as when I worked for large corporates - but the greatest satisfaction comes from adding value by what you do, having more lifestyle flexibility than you get working for someone else and for me having created employment for people.
( Fucking hell Jeff I am not a robot, Thu 6 Oct 2011, 13:23, Reply)

Good for you, glad it makes you happy.
And maybe it's because I don't know you personally, but I don't see why it should change how much I like you.

That may be part of it actually, the whole not knowing thing, oh well, not like we're going to come to some definitive agreement, is it?
( CQ Knows the truth, all of it., Thu 6 Oct 2011, 13:28, Reply)

I'm not saying you should like me (you probably wouldn't - most people don't), but I think you should perhaps have a little more respect for those who have taken risks and created value.
( Fucking hell Jeff I am not a robot, Thu 6 Oct 2011, 13:30, Reply)

To break it down:
Risk taking: depends on the risk and the motivation. Risk taking per se is not a good or bad thing.

Created value: We probably disagree on the meaning of this term. I'd say creating value would involve taking raw materials and adding your work and skill to make them more valuable. I'm not saying bussnies men/starters/owners do not do this, just that people seem to imbue their doing it with some magical significance that makes it more important than what, say, a carpenter does.
( CQ Knows the truth, all of it., Thu 6 Oct 2011, 13:36, Reply)

Oh gonz!
*canned laughter*
( CQ Knows the truth, all of it., Thu 6 Oct 2011, 13:12, Reply)

It's true though, I hear all the time "I hate working for my boss, him making all that money off me, I should be working for myself"
But they don't want to risk and invest money into equipment, they don't want to go out and get clients, they don't want to do accounts. They just see that they're working for X and hour and that's getting billed out at 3 times that, and figure they deserve the full 3 times.

I hate the attitude that all buisness men are evil, screwing people over, and it's normally said by bitter people who wishes they had the guts and drive to go for it themselves.
( G/PP 💩💩💩💩💩&#128, Thu 6 Oct 2011, 13:17, Reply)

You're getting some kind of treat for this.

( thealternativefact, Thu 6 Oct 2011, 13:20, Reply)

When you've heard it from me Gonz, you can tar me with that brush.
My job is a bit dull, but I'm happy enough with it and choose to keep it because it pays quite well and is generally non-stressful. anything else I say is either an exception to that rule or exaggerated for comic effect.

I don't think all business men are evil, but I do think it takes a degree of ruthlessness to be successful in that field, which I do not possess and do not wish to posess, which is why it's something I've never pursued. I like and admire my bosses for what it's worth, but mostly because they treat their staff very well. I think the big house in Islington, the kids in private schools and the impending retirement at an early age are perfectly good (and well deserved) rewards for the work they have done.
( CQ Knows the truth, all of it., Thu 6 Oct 2011, 13:24, Reply)

Determination rather than Ruthlessness.... you don't have to shit over other people to get to the top, you just have to be the good at what you do.
So there you go, your own boss is an example of a buisnessman who isn't 'shafting people', but you said most of them. It's not even close to 'most of them'.
( G/PP 💩💩💩💩💩&#128, Thu 6 Oct 2011, 13:32, Reply)

One of the reasons I like my bosses iis that that are, in my limited experience, exceptional.
And I did mean ruthlessness.

I think at this point we'd have to get into a discussion of the merits of capitalism.

On which, I fear we are destined not to agree, so I'd suggest we agree to disagree on this point Gonz.
( CQ Knows the truth, all of it., Thu 6 Oct 2011, 13:39, Reply)

I know you meant ruthlessness, you are wrong, ruthlessness implies you'd throw a granny down the stairs as you climb up them. Some people can side step the granny on the way up.
It takes drive and determination to become succesfull at anything at all, including buisness.
( G/PP 💩💩💩💩💩&#128, Thu 6 Oct 2011, 13:48, Reply)

I think at this point we'd have to get into a discussion of the merits of capitalism.
On which, I fear we are destined not to agree, so I'd suggest we agree to disagree on this point Gonz.
( CQ Knows the truth, all of it., Thu 6 Oct 2011, 13:59, Reply)

Yeah', I guess so.
I can see that being the best at something can be viewed differntly if you consider that 'something' with negative conulatations.
( G/PP 💩💩💩💩💩&#128, Thu 6 Oct 2011, 14:11, Reply)

Tell you what, lets have a chat about it over a pint some time
Probably more fun.
( CQ Knows the truth, all of it., Thu 6 Oct 2011, 14:21, Reply)