Ahhh the Merkins have passed healthcare reform bill
Well done Merkins. That's twice in the last couple of years you have impressed me. Well done.

What has impressed you lately?
( Peej, Mon 22 Mar 2010, 10:23, 84 replies, latest was 16 years ago)

YM

( Agnostic Antichrist Baltimora, Mon 22 Mar 2010, 10:25, Reply)

Better my mum than my dad

( Peej, Mon 22 Mar 2010, 10:26, Reply)

YD

(PsychoChomp, Mon 22 Mar 2010, 10:29, Reply)

Might be hard
He's been ashes for 10 years.
( Peej, Mon 22 Mar 2010, 10:31, Reply)

Amazon.
My new laptop has a fault. They are sending me a new one with free first class delivery.
( girlinthehole, Mon 22 Mar 2010, 10:29, Reply)

I'd find the person that recommended that laptop and cunt them in the fuck
right hard in the fuck. Did you get any mail from me yet?
( Peej, Mon 22 Mar 2010, 10:31, Reply)

I did, thank you very much.
To be honest, I was surprised I wasn't having any problems until that point.
( girlinthehole, Mon 22 Mar 2010, 10:34, Reply)

The Jim Jones Revue
I'm really, really impressed that one of my teenage heroes, rather than selling out or going soft with age, has stuck to his guns and is releasing high-octane rock'n'roll with all the passion of a man less than half his age.

I quite like the new super-long London Overground trains too.
( Monty Boyce, My cheese game is strong, Mon 22 Mar 2010, 10:42, Reply)

Well...
The House has passed a Bill, but whether it's a good one (or even good enough) is not so clear. My hunch is that it's actually pretty awful; I'm going to try to find a couple of hours later to read the bill that was passed and confirm my worries.
( Enzyme is powered by sunlight, Mon 22 Mar 2010, 10:45, Reply)

If Radio 4's sources are correct
then it's supposed to rule against insurance companies dropping or refusing customers who are sick or known to have a hereditary condition, which is at least a step in the right direction.
(LongJohnBaldry, Mon 22 Mar 2010, 10:53, Reply)

But if they're forced to keep such people on
won't they just make their premiums so astronomically high they won't be able to afford them anyway?

(also, good morning, dear boy)
( Monty Boyce, My cheese game is strong, Mon 22 Mar 2010, 10:57, Reply)

Good morning, old chap
Possibly. It certainly sounds like the kind of thing they would do. However, all I got was a summarised snippet off the Today Programme whilst trying to muster the impetus to haul my arse out of bed, so I don't know the details. (Although if I heard correctly they got the bill through by a margin of about 7 votes, so it's going to continue to be an uphill struggle.)
(LongJohnBaldry, Mon 22 Mar 2010, 11:01, Reply)

The idea is that if everyone pays (as everyone will now be required to have
health insurance) then the premiums will be kept down as there will be more healthy people paying into the pot than sick people pulling money out of the pot (although with an aging population I don't know how long this will work).
(MichaelS wasn't picked again, Mon 22 Mar 2010, 11:32, Reply)

Well, this is one of the problems with the Bill.
Let's put on the table first that a comprehensive public health system is ideal, with noone excluded.

But, still: they've decided to keep a private-based system. On that basis, I think it should be fair in its structure. And that seems to me to demand that insurance companies be allowed to make decisions about policies based on all relavent information. They are, after all, there to make a profit, and that's only going to be possible if they're allowed to decide which risks to take.

The point is this: if a company is forced to give cover to someone whom they wouldn't normally want to touch, that seems unjust to them.

So my worry is that the Bill that was passed involves the worst of all worlds: it's bad for the population, and it's potentially unjust for the private insurers. That's my hunch.

And, if I'm right, the point will remain that any further reform of the system will now be impossible for at least a generation, because the Right will be able to say that it's already made the concessions. The only thing that'd allow for more reform would be some MAJOR public health calamity; and it's a bit uncomfortable for anyone to want that for the sake of allowing more healthcare reform.

/Jeremiad blog
( Enzyme is powered by sunlight, Mon 22 Mar 2010, 11:14, Reply)

I guess they never had to worry about the Black Death, did they?
(I could be wrong; did they ever have a population-threatening plague like most European countries seem to have gone through at some point?)
(LongJohnBaldry, Mon 22 Mar 2010, 11:24, Reply)

does stupidity count?

(bamboozled Can hear you getting fatter, Mon 22 Mar 2010, 11:29, Reply)

Hehe, it's a shame that natural selection often doesn't work fast enough

(LongJohnBaldry, Mon 22 Mar 2010, 11:32, Reply)

Don't forget most of our families origianlly came from European countries long after the black death had passed!

(MichaelS wasn't picked again, Mon 22 Mar 2010, 11:30, Reply)

Yes, this is very true.
But most importantly, that was before the flag-waving patriotism, and the seemingly near-universal rallying behind the call to "unite against terrrrism." As BGB said earlier, most of them seem happy enough for the White House to decide when to send their soldiers out to be shot at.

I do wonder whether, say, if the bird-flu pandemic-turned-non-event had actually manifested itself as a serious threat then it might have caused the country to rally in support of measures to make sure every potential carrier* was offered treatment.

*_{Yes, even the geese!}
(LongJohnBaldry, Mon 22 Mar 2010, 11:36, Reply)

I disagree.
American mass movements, in response to whatever stimulus, tend to be framed in terms of liberty. It's a very individualistic culture.

The rallying agains trrrsm is compatible with this individualism, inasmuch as teh trrrsts were seen as the worse of two evils; a national response was seen as warranted only inasmuch as it would keep the way open for less interference in the life of the godfearin' individual.

In fact, get hold of a copy of Adam Curtis' The Power of Nightmares from BBC2 in 2004 if you can: it's very good on the ideological similarities between radical Islam and the American Right.
( Enzyme is powered by sunlight, Mon 22 Mar 2010, 11:42, Reply)

I've got to see that. I wonder if I can find it on line because I am sure it is not readily availble in the US.

(MichaelS wasn't picked again, Mon 22 Mar 2010, 11:48, Reply)

It is difficult to find outside of the UK, though I think that there is a version.
The problem is that Curtis uses HUGE amounts of archive material in his films from all kinds of sources, so getting copyright clearance outside of the UK is a huge task; the BBC tends not to bother trying.

(Though I would have thought that the full three hours is on the web somewhere, if you know where to look...)
( Enzyme is powered by sunlight, Mon 22 Mar 2010, 11:53, Reply)

I hadn't thought about it that way
But it does seem more consistent with the - often very selfish - reasons given for opposing the healthcare bill. As for the similarity between radical Islam and the radically right-wing, well, I suppose they're both driven by religious dogma. And they do both seem to have surprisingly similar (and very backward) views. I shall have to look for that documentary.
(LongJohnBaldry, Mon 22 Mar 2010, 11:49, Reply)

I'm sure that there must be some really interesting social and intellectual history
on why it is that the US has the political culture it has.
( Enzyme is powered by sunlight, Mon 22 Mar 2010, 11:36, Reply)

It's not that simple.
After all, Canada has had no public health emergency either. It has more to do with a well-founded and vibrant left-wing culture. For some reason, such a culture has never really taken root in the US.
( Enzyme is powered by sunlight, Mon 22 Mar 2010, 11:35, Reply)

This is very true.
Ultimately, I'm just being facetious with my point about nationwide epidemics - not least of all because most of the people in Britain wouldn't appreciate its historical significance. Though as in my reply above, I've always been intrigued by the way they rally round the flag when they feel under threat. I just wonder whether it would give them a push in the right (well, the left) direction.
(LongJohnBaldry, Mon 22 Mar 2010, 11:40, Reply)

I doubt it as we are already faced with a national epidemic of obesity
and people are still feasting at McDonalds and spending all day in front of the TV or computer. Some doctors are saying that if things don't change, this might be the first generation in a long time that doesn't live as long as it's parents. So many people are so brainwashed by what TV and the media tell then that they don't even know they are slowly drowning in their own fat.
(MichaelS wasn't picked again, Mon 22 Mar 2010, 11:46, Reply)

The US suffered just as europe did in the post WW1 flu pandemic

( Bartleby A dead man on vacation, Mon 22 Mar 2010, 11:44, Reply)

Yes, it's incomplete and holds the potential
to do nothing but enforce status quo with a few cosmetic changes.

One thing about insurance companies that they don't like to mention is that they are a complete power unto them selves. On one hand they force hospitals to take lower pay for their services while on the other they complain that government programs don't pay enough.

A couple of years ago I had a pretty bad life threatening bicycle accident with some interesting brain injury (might explain my posting here now), broken bones, etc. Anyway, I was in intensive care etc and when I got the bills from the hospital, they were for well over $20,000. If I did not have insurance I would have had to pay the full amount. The hospital however accepted about $9000 from the insurance company as payment in full. What a scam.
(MichaelS wasn't picked again, Mon 22 Mar 2010, 11:29, Reply)

Damn.
That's a joke.
( Noeli overtheshoulderboulderholderthingstraplatchboobs, Mon 22 Mar 2010, 11:33, Reply)

Look, Herman's Hermits were OK
but I fail to see why their singer should get special exemption.


/old joke
( Monty Boyce, My cheese game is strong, Mon 22 Mar 2010, 11:41, Reply)

Yeah, but the old ones are the best

(LongJohnBaldry, Mon 22 Mar 2010, 11:42, Reply)

I agree that it's pretty awful
in that it doesn't really change much. We needed real changes but too many politicians are owned by the insurance companies that I am not convinced that any real change will ever come. Things should be a little better for some people but in reality, health care is still a for profit business in teh us and people who cost too much money or interfere with profits will not be treated the way they should.

We need a single payer system like your NHS. Sure there may be problems with the NHS, but from what I have read, anyone can get preventative care, prenatal care, and no one is thrown out of the hospital for lack of funds. In the US hospitals have been shown to refuse patients, and in a couple of cases actually took patients who had received some emergency care and dropped them off in the middle of the slums in Los Angeles in their hospital gowns because they hospital didn’t want to treat someone without insurance.
insurance.
(MichaelS wasn't picked again, Mon 22 Mar 2010, 11:21, Reply)

...
too many politicians are owned by the insurance companies

Heh. Quite how Joe Beiden can sleep is beyond me. Oh, wait. He has a bed made of kickbacks. That'll be it.
( Enzyme is powered by sunlight, Mon 22 Mar 2010, 11:28, Reply)

I just don't get why the merkins are so against public health.
We may not have a perfect health system but I know that no matter what illness or injury I have, I can go somewhere that I will be treated without question regardless of my income.
( girlinthehole, Mon 22 Mar 2010, 10:46, Reply)

It's a funny one
I have met at least one perfectly intelligent American who was opposed to it; for the sake of avoiding a heated debate I didn't ask her to explain herself. But then I have also met several other perfectly intelligent Americans who, like us, can't understand why so many of their nation are so bitterly opposed to the idea.

At least it's through - as Enzyme points out, it will probably be a fairly second-rate compromise, but then I suppose the NHS took a long time coming and even then was only after fifty-odd years of piecemeal social reforms.
(LongJohnBaldry, Mon 22 Mar 2010, 10:49, Reply)

It's not even comparable to the NHS though
it's a centrist bill regarding private companies and insurance, the state isn't actually providing any health care, the intention was to force insurance companies to compete more and not just cherry pick the healthy people, but I don't know if this bill will actually work in that way.
(Bazongaloid, Mon 22 Mar 2010, 11:10, Reply)

It's really not centrist at all.
"The Centre" in America is comparable to the right here. By US standards, Cameron is a socialist, since he supports the NHS.

The difference between right and left in the whole US political spectrum maps roughly onto the difference between John Redwood or Daniel Hannan and Ken Clarke within the Tory party. It's really no difference at all.

(Indeed, there's a joke along the lines that the US has two political parties: one is like the Conservatives, and the other is like the Conservatives. Except that the joke is out of date, because both are to the right of mainstream Toryism.)
( Enzyme is powered by sunlight, Mon 22 Mar 2010, 11:17, Reply)

This!

(MichaelS wasn't picked again, Mon 22 Mar 2010, 11:35, Reply)

They're against governments having any power over them.
They only cave to essential government interference.
The argument was not about if it was good, but if it was essential. Then the spin came in to whip up the idiots by saying that it would mean you'd die if you supported it.
(PsychoChomp, Mon 22 Mar 2010, 10:50, Reply)

So they'll let the government decide when to go to war and kill their husbands and sons.
But not let them decide when a change in healthcare is in their best interest or not.
( girlinthehole, Mon 22 Mar 2010, 11:04, Reply)

Exactly
What I see happening is that the right wing politicians are owned lock stock and barrel by big money and will do anything to keep sucking at the tits of their owners. They are extremely good at propaganda and use the media (that so many americans blindly follow) to scream lies about creeping socialism and government forcing people who are older to be killed etc.

Interestingly, when a lot of the people who have been drinking the right wing Kool-Aid are asked about specific portions of the health bill, they are all for them.

If you are not aware of it, once you’re past 65 in the us, you are enrolled into Medicare, which is basically a government run health care program. It was really funny to literally see people screaming that the health bill was going to put government in charge of their Medicare. They didn't even know how the system already works. TV is one great opiate.
(MichaelS wasn't picked again, Mon 22 Mar 2010, 11:13, Reply)

I didn't know about Medicare for the aged.
I figure there must be something for the poor re healthcare but it can't be very easy to get.
( girlinthehole, Mon 22 Mar 2010, 11:19, Reply)

There is Medicade which "covers"
the poor but really only covers emergency care and not much of that.
(MichaelS wasn't picked again, Mon 22 Mar 2010, 11:23, Reply)

"They're against governments having any power over them" or at least many people
think that after drinking the right wing Kool Aid and don't realize how much power the gov already has over them.
(MichaelS wasn't picked again, Mon 22 Mar 2010, 11:50, Reply)

they are against it because it is all liberal and communist and stuff
DAMN REDS!
( Vipros. clever got me this far, then tricky got me in, Mon 22 Mar 2010, 11:11, Reply)

It's worrying how many of them actually seem to believe that...

(LongJohnBaldry, Mon 22 Mar 2010, 11:27, Reply)

People really do believe it. It is really bizzare.

(MichaelS wasn't picked again, Mon 22 Mar 2010, 11:39, Reply)

the bile which goes with the word liberal amuses me

( Vipros. clever got me this far, then tricky got me in, Mon 22 Mar 2010, 11:42, Reply)

See what good propaganda can do!
I think that some of the far right secretly grabbed a lot of Hitler's propagandists after WWII and learned from them. (Joke, sort of)

(No I'm not a conspiracy theorist and I don't think that the Illuminati or masons rule the world, just the US).
(MichaelS wasn't picked again, Mon 22 Mar 2010, 11:51, Reply)

I wonder if it confuses people
when the directions on a jar of something say to "spread liberally on toast" for example.
( Vipros. clever got me this far, then tricky got me in, Mon 22 Mar 2010, 11:55, Reply)

Can one spread conservatively?
Well, apart from in the style of Nicholas Soames or Ken Clarke?
(LongJohnBaldry, Mon 22 Mar 2010, 11:57, Reply)

spreading jam is probably conservative

( Vipros. clever got me this far, then tricky got me in, Mon 22 Mar 2010, 12:02, Reply)

Don't forget that at one time not too long ago
the cafeterias in the US Congress changed the terms "French fries" and "French toast" to "freedom fries" and "freedom toast".

This was in response to those damn French thinking they had the right to govern themselves and not send troops to Iraq. How dare they not do what George Bush told them they must do?

Of course French Fries (or chips to you Brits) are really Belgian and French toast was named after the cook who "invented" it whose last name was French.

(Obama has changed the names back to their original names)
(MichaelS wasn't picked again, Mon 22 Mar 2010, 12:33, Reply)

You see, I've never been to the States
partly because I fear that if I went to the wrong part I'd have to bite my tongue so often I'd end up chewing it off. Which are the safest states to visit if you're an atheist scientist who normally votes Lib Dem?
(LongJohnBaldry, Mon 22 Mar 2010, 11:57, Reply)

Hawaii

( Vipros. clever got me this far, then tricky got me in, Mon 22 Mar 2010, 11:58, Reply)

I'm fine, thank you
When did you turn Geordie?
(LongJohnBaldry, Mon 22 Mar 2010, 12:00, Reply)

hahaha

( Vipros. clever got me this far, then tricky got me in, Mon 22 Mar 2010, 12:01, Reply)

Vermont but our far left wing socialist state gov
is more like your Center. We do have the only Senator who at one time was openly Socialist (Berny Sanders). He now has dropped the Socualist label and calls humself a Progressive.
(MichaelS wasn't picked again, Mon 22 Mar 2010, 12:36, Reply)

Chipotle paste.
I can only get pissy little jars of the stuff though. I think I'm addicted. Edit: this one www.discoveryfoodsdirect.com/chipotle-paste-19-p.asp
( Noeli overtheshoulderboulderholderthingstraplatchboobs, Mon 22 Mar 2010, 11:00, Reply)

You are middle class.
AICMFP!
( girlinthehole, Mon 22 Mar 2010, 11:02, Reply)

I'm not sure the middle class have chipotle on toast for breakfast.

( Noeli overtheshoulderboulderholderthingstraplatchboobs, Mon 22 Mar 2010, 11:06, Reply)

I used to take the piss out of my best mate when she started using balsamic vinigar.
It's the slippery slope I told her. Next thing you know, you'll be adding red wine to your spag bol.

Edit - look at me now though. I'm adding black treacle to my veggie chillie.
( girlinthehole, Mon 22 Mar 2010, 11:10, Reply)

*points*

( Noeli overtheshoulderboulderholderthingstraplatchboobs, Mon 22 Mar 2010, 11:14, Reply)

And what does one do with it, please?
To my embarrassment my knowledge of chipotle is limited to the Kettle Chips flavour.
( Monty Boyce, My cheese game is strong, Mon 22 Mar 2010, 11:03, Reply)

Something to do with the Chipotle commenting on the colour of the Chikettle

(LongJohnBaldry, Mon 22 Mar 2010, 11:04, Reply)

Oh bravo!

( Noeli overtheshoulderboulderholderthingstraplatchboobs, Mon 22 Mar 2010, 11:06, Reply)

Chiracist.

( Monty Boyce, My cheese game is strong, Mon 22 Mar 2010, 11:06, Reply)

Chiro...um...practor

(LongJohnBaldry, Mon 22 Mar 2010, 11:08, Reply)

I've used it wherever I'd use any kind of sauce anywhere
Like on pork chops, marinated chicken, spread on wraps, on buttered toast. Man, my mouth's watering.
( Noeli overtheshoulderboulderholderthingstraplatchboobs, Mon 22 Mar 2010, 11:05, Reply)

Oh, make your own, ffs.

( Enzyme is powered by sunlight, Mon 22 Mar 2010, 11:18, Reply)

Haha!

( girlinthehole, Mon 22 Mar 2010, 11:20, Reply)

It's times like this I realise my life is woefully inadequately equipped.

( Noeli overtheshoulderboulderholderthingstraplatchboobs, Mon 22 Mar 2010, 11:41, Reply)

life genitalia
( Vipros. clever got me this far, then tricky got me in, Mon 22 Mar 2010, 11:43, Reply)

Fine, you're not getting any then.

( Noeli overtheshoulderboulderholderthingstraplatchboobs, Mon 22 Mar 2010, 11:45, Reply)

I don't remember saying I wanted any of your dick...

( Vipros. clever got me this far, then tricky got me in, Mon 22 Mar 2010, 11:49, Reply)

I must have you confused with your mum.

( Noeli overtheshoulderboulderholderthingstraplatchboobs, Mon 22 Mar 2010, 11:51, Reply)

it happens
it's amazing how me being a foot taller and having a beard doesn't prevent us getting confused
( Vipros. clever got me this far, then tricky got me in, Mon 22 Mar 2010, 11:56, Reply)

http://www.mexgrocer.co.uk/
Knock yourself out, but that Discovery guff is NOTHING like real chipotle.
(Himjim died a little more inside on, Mon 22 Mar 2010, 11:29, Reply)

if he likes the discovery stuff why would he like something that's NOTHING like it?

(PsychoChomp, Mon 22 Mar 2010, 11:35, Reply)

I would like to convert him
I am a devotee of Chipotle also.
(Himjim died a little more inside on, Mon 22 Mar 2010, 11:42, Reply)

Smart.
I've seen that before but was a little overwhelmed. Any suggestions? Edit other than MTFU
( Noeli overtheshoulderboulderholderthingstraplatchboobs, Mon 22 Mar 2010, 11:44, Reply)

Classic is Chipotle in Adobe
Canned in sauce from other chillies. An absolute treat, works in most things like you had up there. I thought I was the only one who likes chili on buttered toast :D

www.mexgrocer.co.uk/Chipotle-Chillies-orderby0-p-1-c-264.html
(Himjim died a little more inside on, Mon 22 Mar 2010, 12:15, Reply)

Cheers old boy!
Good to see you back round these parts.
( Noeli overtheshoulderboulderholderthingstraplatchboobs, Mon 22 Mar 2010, 12:16, Reply)