I've changed my mind.
I don't want equal women. I want them different but valued.
Is that OK?
(porkylips looks better as the sun goes down., Wed 31 Mar 2010, 9:55, 3 replies, latest was 16 years ago)

It depends how you value them.
I value my cats but it doesn't mean they're equal to me.
( girlinthehole, Wed 31 Mar 2010, 9:58, Reply)

this is getting to the point that I think the OP was one about
when feminism is under discussion it appears that nothing a man says can be taken at face value, or can be considered to have any merit.

I'd be the first to admit that it's a complicated issue about which I know very little, and have little experience but, as I'm sure porkylips will agree, when he says something like "I want them different but valued" he doesn't mean he'll value them like a possession or a pet.
( Vipros. clever got me this far, then tricky got me in, Wed 31 Mar 2010, 10:04, Reply)

He means we'll still be second class citizens but treated very well.
I'm afraid that only equality is preferable to non equality.
( girlinthehole, Wed 31 Mar 2010, 10:08, Reply)

why do you assume he means that?

( Vipros. clever got me this far, then tricky got me in, Wed 31 Mar 2010, 10:10, Reply)

Why else wouldn't he want us equal?

( girlinthehole, Wed 31 Mar 2010, 10:20, Reply)

maybe he didn't mean 'equal' as in 'standing'
Maybe he just meant 'level' but 'different'.

I dunno. I wasn't offended but I was raised being told we were a feminist household and I still have no idea what it really means.
( Roota zweeeeeoooooowm, Wed 31 Mar 2010, 10:24, Reply)

I wasn't offended because he had no malice behind it.

( girlinthehole, Wed 31 Mar 2010, 10:27, Reply)

If I thought he meant women should be 'well-treated second class citizens'
I'd have been VERY offended!
But I don't think he did.
( Roota zweeeeeoooooowm, Wed 31 Mar 2010, 10:28, Reply)

Well if were not equal and were not second class then what are we

( girlinthehole, Wed 31 Mar 2010, 10:29, Reply)

I think he meant equal as in 'same'
If you know what I mean.
We'reas you're talking about 'equal' as in rights/opportunities?
( Roota zweeeeeoooooowm, Wed 31 Mar 2010, 10:30, Reply)

yeah, this

( Vipros. clever got me this far, then tricky got me in, Wed 31 Mar 2010, 10:31, Reply)

to me that looks like arguing semantics

( Vipros. clever got me this far, then tricky got me in, Wed 31 Mar 2010, 10:31, Reply)

Only Porky knows what he means.
Until he makes it clear we'll never know.
( girlinthehole, Wed 31 Mar 2010, 10:34, Reply)

Hmmm. He could've used better phrasing.
Why should we be different? I'm not arguing that there aren't necessarily innate biological differences (the jury is out on the impact of those) but why should we be different? Unfortunately for porkylips, his choice of words "I don't want equal women" could easily be construed as inflammatory (was it intended as such?), as is the idea that he can want women to be a specific way.
( crackhouseceilidhband Fuck off back to Mumsnet, Wed 31 Mar 2010, 10:10, Reply)

I think there is a difference in perception
whether that has come about because of the way things are in terms of non-equality, or whether it is a brain thing I don't know, but examining our different views on what is a pretty simple statement from porkylips is fairly telling.

I doubt many men would place any significance on the "I don't want" part.
( Vipros. clever got me this far, then tricky got me in, Wed 31 Mar 2010, 10:14, Reply)

And is that difference biological or social/cultural, eh?

( crackhouseceilidhband Fuck off back to Mumsnet, Wed 31 Mar 2010, 10:16, Reply)

I suspect some of each
hard to tell though without being more of a student of psychology.

we all know that men and women place different significance on different things, but I don't think it is clear cut which are affected by biology and which by culture.
( Vipros. clever got me this far, then tricky got me in, Wed 31 Mar 2010, 10:17, Reply)

We have a history of subjegation which makes us see things differently to men.
I suggest that if it interests you then you read up on feminism. If it doesn't interest you then no probs but don't try to argue about that which you know little about.

Edit - Plus I'm not very good at putting across what I mean so reading about it would be preferable to my ranting.
( girlinthehole, Wed 31 Mar 2010, 10:26, Reply)

understood
I wasn't arguing so much as trying to clarify a couple of bits of male thinking, which I do know sometihng about, and to seek some clarification of my own.

edit: I know what you mean about not getting your point across, I struggle. As we can see from the above, words mean slightly different things to different people.
( Vipros. clever got me this far, then tricky got me in, Wed 31 Mar 2010, 10:29, Reply)

I remember starting uni and reading loads of books about all aspects of feminism and being blown away.
I wasn't fully aware of my situation until then so I understand where you are coming from.

It really is very interesting stuff.
( girlinthehole, Wed 31 Mar 2010, 10:35, Reply)

It certainly is interesting
I was astounded by how, when I tried to look at things objectively, society generally caters for me as a man so much more, especially in terms of career expectations.

It made me angry at first, but then hearing from rabid fundamentalist feminists made me feel as if I have nothing to contribute as a man, so as far as I'm concerned the problem is best ignored.

It's like they've built up this image of the evil uncaring patriarch so fervently that they don't want men any other way.
(StapMyVitals wouldn't mind a bit of that, Wed 31 Mar 2010, 12:43, Reply)

but they are the minority
the majority of woman simply want equality. They don't want to smash men in or rape them or keep them in zoos. They want the knowledge that they are as likely to get a job, keep it and make their own choices in life, and at the current time that is not in place
( Amberl was stripey and dominated Europe, Wed 31 Mar 2010, 12:48, Reply)

I'd feel uncomfortable
with anyone who said 'different but valued.' Different in what way? You mean different in that we are of a certain type? That our abilities and capability is different to that of men. But it doesn't matter because we're good at what *really* matters- being empathetic and having children.

Have you ever noticed that when people say different but equal, what they actually mean is 'I have a stereotype of women. It includes virtues I don't want and don't need but am going to pretend are just as good.'
( Amberl was stripey and dominated Europe, Wed 31 Mar 2010, 11:57, Reply)

Er
Different in that you are a human being and therefore different from everyone else. This is the problem I have with feminism now. It isn't inclusive enough.
(porkylips looks better as the sun goes down., Wed 31 Mar 2010, 12:54, Reply)

But if all humans being are different
then why feel the need to start throwing 'equal but different' around specifically about women?
The reason feminism wasn't inclusive enough (no excuse for it now) was simply that there is only so much fighting you can do at a time. And woman got the shorter end of the stick than almost any other group. And it still goes on. The annual income of two lesbians for example, is proportionally far less than a gay partnership. Now it could be because all lesbians are dykes who spend their day doing raffia knitting, eating vegan food and whining about opression, or it could be because there is fundamental inequality in the system that needs to be tackled. The point is people only have enough energy to fight their own corner.

Personally I stand by the equality motto. No better treated no worse, taken on value as a person not as a gender. The fact I'm a woman shouldn't mean I'm prejudged. If I'm a twat fair enough. But the fact I own one shouldn't be my defining characteristic
( Amberl was stripey and dominated Europe, Wed 31 Mar 2010, 13:09, Reply)

The catchphrase of segregation amongst the 'merkins
was "separate but equal". It's a laudable goal, in theory. The problem is effecting the idea so that neither group gets a raw deal in practice.

That's why I'm generally for the closest thing to equality rather than a "celebration of differences". If there are social differences between two groups there'll always be (often justified) grounds to say that one group is actually secretly getting the shitty end of the stick.
(StapMyVitals wouldn't mind a bit of that, Wed 31 Mar 2010, 12:34, Reply)

I feel that no one is equal nor should we be but we all should have the same opportunities.
Having raised two daughters and having a number of nephews I do see what appear to be differences between males and femals although how to account for differneces caused by socialization vs nature is difficult or impossible.

That said, we should all be allowed to screw up equally based on our own person failures!

There is good news for women however (as I see it anyway). I work in a traditionally male dominated science (geology). When I started 30 some years ago the only women we saw were our secretaries. More and more women however are getting into this field, and women now make up close to 50% of the scientific staff in my office. Opening up this science has provided some interesting changes in how we view things. This has been a good thing.

(I still however have to remember that when in the field, I can't cuss as much or just take a p--- anywhere anymore. Also, there is less beer drinking and arguing about rocks which was one of the things that first attracted me to geology).
(MichaelS wasn't picked again, Wed 31 Mar 2010, 13:23, Reply)