I started this week as a feminist
But after a few days of reading feminist literature and, more importantly, checking up on blogs such as Feministing and Feminazery, I'm starting to become disillusioned by the whole idea.

I guarantee if a male leaves a comment on such a site saying anything other than "I agree totally! You are a gifted writer and one hundred percent correct!" they will be internet-lynched, and accused of thinking rape is all in good fun and just airheads making a big fuss about nothing.

The thing is, the feminist things I've been reading occasionally throw in a token concession that not all man are monstrous pigs who only interact with women with an eye to shagging them, while the rest of what they say conjures up exactly this image. It reminds me very much of a racist saying something like "obviously I don't think ALL blacks are criminals...just more so than whites" in the middle of a diatribe about bloody immigrants coming over here and selling drugs.

It sort of makes me feel like an enemy of social justice on account of my gender, which ultimately leads to a feeling of "if I'm going to be demonised because of my cock and balls, why should I fucking bother with feminists and feminism?"...which is frankly not the feeling feminists should by trying to promote. I mean, if saying "maybe some rape accusations really are false..." brings about the same reaction as "phwoarr, you'd fucking get it you little tart! Show us your flange!", you may as well say the latter. It's funnier to see the reaction that way.

Can someone let me know that respecting women as equals and believing in equality is still worth doing and not a)gay or b)fruitless, as I'm male and thus basically a rapist anyway? Please include funny feminism stories if possible.

End of disjointed and hastily written rant. This is going to look bloody silly of me.
(StapMyVitals wouldn't mind a bit of that, Tue 30 Mar 2010, 20:11, 117 replies, latest was 16 years ago)

no good stories or anything
but at least one branch of post feminism is more concerned with the representation of difference (ie male/female are equal but different, with one no better than another)

the people on those sites sound like arses, this kind of thing makes women say dumb things like "I'm not a feminist, but..."
( Citizen Cavy Admires your passion for conformity, Tue 30 Mar 2010, 20:56, Reply)

oh MAN, is this man bashing thread tiems?!
I work in an auto garage and therefore deal with men 98% of the time at work.
My favorites are the ones that refuse to even talk to me and just walk right into the garage and bug them until my boss tells them they have to talk to me.
( Lisette von Falcon, Tue 30 Mar 2010, 21:03, Reply)

I had this problem in a camera shop, although with men and women
they used to queue up to talk to my boss who knew nothing about digital photography at the time
( Citizen Cavy Admires your passion for conformity, Tue 30 Mar 2010, 21:05, Reply)

cunts

( Lisette von Falcon, Tue 30 Mar 2010, 21:07, Reply)

Tell them to man the fuck up.

( Wanderer, Tue 30 Mar 2010, 21:17, Reply)

Basicaly
Sounds like some people got the wrong idea about the more extreme polemics churned out during the 70's and then made an internet site about it. The point about the feminist polemics wasn't realy to be taken seriously, rather to turn the kind of objectivism and prejudice present in society at the time on men, to highlight how wrong this is. It's not supposed to be something you realy agree with, more underlining a point.

Feminism is worth it. Try reading some Kate Millet or something. She's got some interesting points, like the fact that while there are, on average differences between men and women as groups, these differences are tiny compared to the same differences within the groups of men and women.

Anyways, it's totaly not worthless, and no sane feminist is going to seriously suggest that men are basicaly rapists. Apart from the men who are rapists - obviously. Anyways - this is far too serious for an OT post - I apologise.
(Fredz A graveyard of hopes, a dump of ambition, Tue 30 Mar 2010, 21:19, Reply)

*applaudes*
may I lighten the tone by saying that I TOTALLY SNOGGED this guy last night! w00t!

man, I've been busting to tell people :D
( Citizen Cavy Admires your passion for conformity, Tue 30 Mar 2010, 21:29, Reply)

didn't I see you say you were married the other day?
or was that in the past
( Vipros. clever got me this far, then tricky got me in, Tue 30 Mar 2010, 21:30, Reply)

don't be judgin'

( Lisette von Falcon, Tue 30 Mar 2010, 21:31, Reply)

I'm not
I don't know all the facts, which is why I'm asking

don't you be judgin' me
( Vipros. clever got me this far, then tricky got me in, Tue 30 Mar 2010, 21:32, Reply)

RAP BATTLE!

( Citizen Cavy Admires your passion for conformity, Tue 30 Mar 2010, 21:33, Reply)

I can honestly say that I think a rap battle is something that I would do worse than practically anything else I could attempt

( Vipros. clever got me this far, then tricky got me in, Tue 30 Mar 2010, 21:34, Reply)

that is why you should try it and film it and make it an internet hit

( Citizen Cavy Admires your passion for conformity, Tue 30 Mar 2010, 21:34, Reply)

I couldn't do it
I can't do cringeworthy stuff like that, and I find rapping on adverts and tv shows to be pretty much the most cringeworthy thing around
( Vipros. clever got me this far, then tricky got me in, Tue 30 Mar 2010, 21:37, Reply)

yeah
I was just trying to coerce you into doing something regrettable and embarrassing
( Citizen Cavy Admires your passion for conformity, Tue 30 Mar 2010, 21:39, Reply)

I'm good at resisting that sort of thing

( Vipros. clever got me this far, then tricky got me in, Tue 30 Mar 2010, 21:40, Reply)

damn

( Citizen Cavy Admires your passion for conformity, Tue 30 Mar 2010, 21:41, Reply)

sorry to disappoint :-)

( Vipros. clever got me this far, then tricky got me in, Tue 30 Mar 2010, 21:42, Reply)

biggie biggie V wanna piece ah me?
he ain't gonna grab it, I ain't gon' let him have it
unless it's my piece to his chest, niggah betta reckanize
this is Killah K and I ain't gonna rest
word
( Lisette von Falcon, Tue 30 Mar 2010, 21:55, Reply)

I _was_ but the divorce goes through next week
been split up 6 months
( Citizen Cavy Admires your passion for conformity, Tue 30 Mar 2010, 21:32, Reply)

umm, congratulations?
is that appropriate?
( Vipros. clever got me this far, then tricky got me in, Tue 30 Mar 2010, 21:33, Reply)

totally
the ex is a douche who cheated on me 4 months after the wedding. New guy is very much not like him.
( Citizen Cavy Admires your passion for conformity, Tue 30 Mar 2010, 21:33, Reply)

what a fucker

( Vipros. clever got me this far, then tricky got me in, Tue 30 Mar 2010, 21:34, Reply)

and that's why I stomped on his millenium falcon

( Citizen Cavy Admires your passion for conformity, Tue 30 Mar 2010, 21:36, Reply)

hit him where it hurts
nice work
( Vipros. clever got me this far, then tricky got me in, Tue 30 Mar 2010, 21:38, Reply)

Awesome!
Are you gonna take it further or is it just snogging? Nice to know someone's getting some.
(Fredz A graveyard of hopes, a dump of ambition, Tue 30 Mar 2010, 21:34, Reply)

might well go further
currently failing to write an e-mail to get him to come visit me after easter

/wimp
( Citizen Cavy Admires your passion for conformity, Tue 30 Mar 2010, 21:35, Reply)

Urrmmm
Goes like "Hey, I don't know if you're up for it, but I was going to (go see film/band/whatever) after easter - would be cool if you could make it xxx - done. :D (that's what I'd write anyway. Not that you should take my advice at all realy)
(Fredz A graveyard of hopes, a dump of ambition, Tue 30 Mar 2010, 21:39, Reply)

I'm pretty sure it would be OK
I'm just a wuss.

I take advice where I can get it in these matters
( Citizen Cavy Admires your passion for conformity, Tue 30 Mar 2010, 21:41, Reply)

Well in that case
Best of luck! And such.
(Fredz A graveyard of hopes, a dump of ambition, Tue 30 Mar 2010, 21:42, Reply)

cheers

( Citizen Cavy Admires your passion for conformity, Tue 30 Mar 2010, 21:43, Reply)

you could always try the
"could you come visit and give me another kiss please? the last one was rather nice"

tactic
(Halfy By light alone, Tue 30 Mar 2010, 21:42, Reply)

this has much style
but I'm not sure I'd have the guts to actually press send
( Citizen Cavy Admires your passion for conformity, Tue 30 Mar 2010, 21:43, Reply)

write it
and then think "I must not under any circumstances whatsoever send this message"

It'll be dispatched, read and replied to before you know it!
(Halfy By light alone, Tue 30 Mar 2010, 21:45, Reply)

i think I'd need rum

( Citizen Cavy Admires your passion for conformity, Tue 30 Mar 2010, 21:46, Reply)

I know what you mean
rejection is a horrible thing to be scared of, just bite the bullet, whats the worst that could happen? to be fair no thanks is only 8 little letters that really shouldn't hurt
(Halfy By light alone, Tue 30 Mar 2010, 21:49, Reply)

the one I wrote on Sunday asking him out
was possibly the scariest thing I've done in years
( Citizen Cavy Admires your passion for conformity, Tue 30 Mar 2010, 22:07, Reply)

As scary as your mum?

(Bazongaloid, Tue 30 Mar 2010, 22:16, Reply)

that's the scariest thing *you've* done
wait...I think I haven't got the hang of this
( Citizen Cavy Admires your passion for conformity, Tue 30 Mar 2010, 22:18, Reply)

but he said yes
yes?

if so then you have nothing to worry about, the first one is always the hardest
(Halfy By light alone, Tue 30 Mar 2010, 22:16, Reply)

yup
sent message now, not quite what you said, but not far off and more mention of robots
( Citizen Cavy Admires your passion for conformity, Tue 30 Mar 2010, 22:18, Reply)

"could you come visit and give me another robot please? the last one was rather nice"
?
(Halfy By light alone, Tue 30 Mar 2010, 22:19, Reply)

haha

( Citizen Cavy Admires your passion for conformity, Tue 30 Mar 2010, 22:21, Reply)

well
good luck, hope you get a good reply

oh and more robots!
(Halfy By light alone, Tue 30 Mar 2010, 22:23, Reply)

I love it when a girl wants a robot off me.

(Bazongaloid, Tue 30 Mar 2010, 22:24, Reply)

Ridicule, conversely, is nothing to be scared of.

( Monty Boyce, My cheese game is strong, Tue 30 Mar 2010, 23:38, Reply)

*Dances like an ant*

( The Light in Chains don't touch the Pope's boner, Wed 31 Mar 2010, 9:32, Reply)

hey dude
I haven't read any of the above posts other than yours that started it off. I'm going to be serious for once and say that this is a subject close to my heart.

I used to go out with a girl who openly and proudly declared herself to be a feminist. I didn't really know what being a card carrying feminazi meant but apparently it's that I was occasionally a sexist bastard.

Balls to that. You know what the male equivalent of feminism is? Chauvanism. And we all know that that's fucking wrong. Feminism is not the same as equality and it's the latter than I live my life by. Seriously, I'm a coder and I've seen the effect of well meaning but sexist twats drive women away from the profession. Don't let feminism cloud your judgement of behaving acceptably around women. There are real women out there who will appreciate being treated equally in the same way there will also be women who will adamantly claim you're a 'potential rapist' as there are men who think the little lady should shut up and get back to the sink.
( djtrialprice, Tue 30 Mar 2010, 22:42, Reply)

"Feminism is not the same as equality"
Feminism is about women having the same opportunities and rights as men.
( crackhouseceilidhband Fuck off back to Mumsnet, Wed 31 Mar 2010, 9:06, Reply)

Exactly
(Although as a man I probably should say anything).

No one is equal and it's foolish to think we are or ever could/should be, but everyone, male or female, black, white, whatever, should be given full opportunity to screw up as well as they can.

Which Kurt Vonnegut book or story is it where they try to make everyone completely equal by doing things like making strong people wear lots of weights and people with good vision wear glasses that screw up their vision etc.?
(MichaelS wasn't picked again, Wed 31 Mar 2010, 12:53, Reply)

You know what the male equivalent of feminism is
Masochism ?

Srrsslly tho, back when I was at University the idea was floated of a womens night bus. Fair enough - a bit of a sexist idea, cos of course guys never get mugged, but generally a good thing. Being the nice guy I was pretending to be I volunteered to be a driver; I was told that male drivers would not be considered in case this was found to be intimidating or some such cock. 2 weeks later the service was dropped due to a lack of drivers.

I would suggest this was a case of not seeing the wood for the trees but use of "wood" as a positive thing would be teh secksist piggery.
(joe is troubled Got all married and teh stuffs, Wed 31 Mar 2010, 9:10, Reply)

True feminism
is believing that men and women are equal and not making value judgements or instant decision on capability governed by gender. These feminist blogs are like anything else on the internet- polemical and written by people who often have a rather twisted outlook on life
( Amberl was stripey and dominated Europe, Tue 30 Mar 2010, 23:24, Reply)

I certainly hope so
It just gives the impression that it's the shape of feminism today, and does bugger-all to dispel the stereotype of a frigid bull-dyke in dungarees being aggressively smelly and hairy and screaming at any man who looks at her.
(StapMyVitals wouldn't mind a bit of that, Wed 31 Mar 2010, 12:47, Reply)

All this is very interesting but still fails to adequately address the burning issue of the day
Who is going to iron my shirt?
(SpunkyMcSpunkbubble Diddled your nubbin on, Wed 31 Mar 2010, 5:26, Reply)

Gonz is fully supportive of the burning of unsupportive brazier.

( G/PP 💩💩💩💩💩&#128, Wed 31 Mar 2010, 5:44, Reply)

I had this arguement the other day with applebite.
Yes they are the extreme end of feminism but as in all things, we need extremes to move the needle slowly in the right direction. I'm a feminist and I believe that women are totally equal in all things that men are, good and bad. I still enjoy talking and making silly jokes about boobies etc, (although I find rape jokes a little discomforting). If people believe that we now have total equal rights with guys then they are completely mistaken. We've a long way to go yet.

And good for you for looking into the movement. There is lots of interesting stuff to read which will make you look at how the world has been shaped because of men's total disregard for women's part in it.
( girlinthehole, Wed 31 Mar 2010, 8:30, Reply)

I hate feminism with a passion.
As much as I hate chauvinism (which is also a misnomer but meh).

Most isms are usually divisive and condescending in some way, except for the one I believe in - Egalitarianism (?).
I firmly believe that if the drive and fury applied to feminism had instead been lodged behind establishing
equality for all, this world would be a much better place.

I also wish unicorns were real.
(porkylips looks better as the sun goes down., Wed 31 Mar 2010, 8:49, Reply)

"I firmly believe that if the drive and fury applied to feminism had instead been lodged behind establishing equality for all, this world would be a much better place. "
That's the whole point of feminism: that women should have the same rights and opportunities as men.
( crackhouseceilidhband Fuck off back to Mumsnet, Wed 31 Mar 2010, 9:05, Reply)

Which offends me.
If equality was the whole point of feminism it would be called equality, surely? Everyone should have the same rights and opportunities as each other. Which kind of makes feminism redundant.
(porkylips looks better as the sun goes down., Wed 31 Mar 2010, 9:17, Reply)

But everyone DOESN'T have the same rights and opportunities so therefore feminism isn't redundant.

( crackhouseceilidhband Fuck off back to Mumsnet, Wed 31 Mar 2010, 9:21, Reply)

Exactly
(Having two daughters certainly makes me more sensitive to this issue). Girls have a rough time growing up in our society with all of the mixed messages they receive and expectations boys never have to deal with.

No one is equal (there are a LOT of people who are a whole lot smarter than me etc). I do see some basic differences between boys/men and girls/women however that can't be blamed completely on society. Due to bone structure, men usually have the capacity to become physically stronger then women (not always) and women seem to have higher resistance to disease (because they have to be healthy to have children and keep the species going?) but none of that means they should have different opportunities.

It used to be that school age boys were always better than school age girls in things like math. It is interesting however to see that in the US girls in some schools/regions have in many case caught up to and passed boys in math etc in school. This shows to me that a lot of why girls did worse in the past was due to socialization, not ability. Females now outnumber males in colleges/universities in the US and we are seeing more and more women entering the fields of engineering and science.

We are also seeing more women end up with stress related diseases as the move up in the business world.
(MichaelS wasn't picked again, Wed 31 Mar 2010, 13:05, Reply)

No.
Everyone DOESN'T have the same rights and opportunities so therefore feminism isn't redundant

What? That has no relevance other than proving my point. Equality is the issue, feminism is simply sexualised equality. Which makes it inequal and ultimately divisive.
(porkylips looks better as the sun goes down., Wed 31 Mar 2010, 13:12, Reply)

For an interesting perspective:
www.amptoons.com/blog/the-male-privilege-checklist/

(Number 44 is the bane of my fucking life.)

Feminism has gone through a number of movements since its inception. I am troubled by the fact that people see it as a dirty word. I want to live in a society that gives men and women the same chances in life. I have no problem whatsoever with the label. I'm saddened that people still think in stereotypes. For me, third wave feminism is a valid and worthy philosophy.
( crackhouseceilidhband Fuck off back to Mumsnet, Wed 31 Mar 2010, 9:07, Reply)

does number 44 happen to a lot of women a lot of the time?
I have never seen or heard of it as far as I know
( Vipros. clever got me this far, then tricky got me in, Wed 31 Mar 2010, 9:32, Reply)

Can only speak from my own experience but it's happened to me a lot.
I've yet to meet a bloke who's been on the receiving end.
( crackhouseceilidhband Fuck off back to Mumsnet, Wed 31 Mar 2010, 9:35, Reply)

if it happened to blokes it would surely have happened to me
as my relaxed expression is apparently one of anger.
( Vipros. clever got me this far, then tricky got me in, Wed 31 Mar 2010, 9:41, Reply)

I've had it a few times
I imagine the reason women get it more than men is because 'chirpy' cunts who say that sort of thing rightly assume a grumpy woman is less likely to chin them for saying it. It's hardly a reason to boo hoo about it on the fucking internet and has precisely sod-all with patriarchal oppression.

*punches a woman*
( Monty Boyce, My cheese game is strong, Wed 31 Mar 2010, 10:06, Reply)

The point:
It's somewhere over there and you're missing it.
( crackhouseceilidhband Fuck off back to Mumsnet, Wed 31 Mar 2010, 10:15, Reply)

I think the point is that Monty looks like a grumpy woman
to the man on the street.
( Vipros. clever got me this far, then tricky got me in, Wed 31 Mar 2010, 10:19, Reply)

As far as I can see
the point that's being attempted to make is that being told to 'smile' in the street by idiots is JUST ANOTHER WAY BY WHICH MEN KEEP WOMEN DOWN.

My point is 'no it fucking isn't'.
( Monty Boyce, My cheese game is strong, Wed 31 Mar 2010, 10:24, Reply)

I'm sure you actually realise this, but what they are getting at is that it's a symptom of it
that the men who do this assume that because it is a women that they are allowed to say things like that.

I'd expect to be told where to stick it
( Vipros. clever got me this far, then tricky got me in, Wed 31 Mar 2010, 10:34, Reply)

I disagree
I think the kind of men who come out with that kind of embarrasing shit would say it to anyone they thought they could get away with saying it to. I'd bet they'd say it to a boy or an old man as well.

There's a huge difference between 'cheer up, it might never happen!' which is just fucking annoying, and the leering builders shouting 'phwooar, 'ello darlin' off scaffolding at passing women. The former is just stupid, the latter genuinely offensive to women.

Let's face it with my current sig I really should leave this thread.
( Monty Boyce, My cheese game is strong, Wed 31 Mar 2010, 10:45, Reply)

I file all that sort of stuff under "most people are stupid dickheads"
it's working well for me so far
( Vipros. clever got me this far, then tricky got me in, Wed 31 Mar 2010, 10:52, Reply)

No, the point is that women are treated differently on the basis of their sex.
Being told to 'smile' on the street is merely an example of that.
( crackhouseceilidhband Fuck off back to Mumsnet, Wed 31 Mar 2010, 10:34, Reply)

This is what a lot of guys don't understand.
46. I have the privilege of being unaware of my male privilege.
( girlinthehole, Wed 31 Mar 2010, 9:42, Reply)

I can only speak for myself
but as far as I am can tell I never see any evidence of most of those things, and so why would I be aware of my male privilege?

being unaware of something of which you have little or no experience or evidence is hardly a crime.
( Vipros. clever got me this far, then tricky got me in, Wed 31 Mar 2010, 9:46, Reply)

I'm sure you're unaware of a lot of things women put up with in the same way we are unaware of a lot of things black people put up with.
Doesn't mean it's not valid.
( girlinthehole, Wed 31 Mar 2010, 9:52, Reply)

I know it doesn't mean it's not valid
I was explaining why the thing you quoted might be. in my case at least.
( Vipros. clever got me this far, then tricky got me in, Wed 31 Mar 2010, 9:56, Reply)

Then look into it.

( girlinthehole, Wed 31 Mar 2010, 10:02, Reply)

this might make me come across as an arse, but why?
it has very little bearing on my life. All of the woman in my life are happily unaffected.

My mrs has a good, well-paid job in a very traditionally male profession. There are more than 50% women in my office, on comparable pay, in an engineering company, most of the top roles are held by women.

Of my friends, pretty much all of the women are doing jobs which they got by being good at them, and wanting to do them.

Many of them choose not to wear makeup and such when they don't want to.

I, and they, are lucky. I know that, before it gets pointed out.

I also know that there is a lot more too it than what I've said.
( Vipros. clever got me this far, then tricky got me in, Wed 31 Mar 2010, 10:09, Reply)

I'd like to take this opportunity to point out that I'm not arguing against feminism here
the fact that it even needs to exist baffles me, along with many other things.

as far as I'm concerned men and women are capable of the same things, and it's the person rather than the sex that determines what they are good at or not.
( Vipros. clever got me this far, then tricky got me in, Wed 31 Mar 2010, 10:16, Reply)

What about all the women who aren't as lucky as those close to you.
Don't you get angry that they don't have the same equality?
( girlinthehole, Wed 31 Mar 2010, 10:33, Reply)

I was about to say I don't get angry about things I can't affect
but that would be a massive lie.

I get more puzzled by it to be honest. I suspect that it would trouble me more if I did have more direct experience, or those close to me did.

Not particularly admirable, but that's the way it is. I'm terribly self-centred
( Vipros. clever got me this far, then tricky got me in, Wed 31 Mar 2010, 10:36, Reply)

at least women don't come over here and steal our jobs.

( Monty Boyce, My cheese game is strong, Wed 31 Mar 2010, 10:13, Reply)

I've changed my mind.
I don't want equal women. I want them different but valued.
Is that OK?
(porkylips looks better as the sun goes down., Wed 31 Mar 2010, 9:55, Reply)

It depends how you value them.
I value my cats but it doesn't mean they're equal to me.
( girlinthehole, Wed 31 Mar 2010, 9:58, Reply)

this is getting to the point that I think the OP was one about
when feminism is under discussion it appears that nothing a man says can be taken at face value, or can be considered to have any merit.

I'd be the first to admit that it's a complicated issue about which I know very little, and have little experience but, as I'm sure porkylips will agree, when he says something like "I want them different but valued" he doesn't mean he'll value them like a possession or a pet.
( Vipros. clever got me this far, then tricky got me in, Wed 31 Mar 2010, 10:04, Reply)

He means we'll still be second class citizens but treated very well.
I'm afraid that only equality is preferable to non equality.
( girlinthehole, Wed 31 Mar 2010, 10:08, Reply)

why do you assume he means that?

( Vipros. clever got me this far, then tricky got me in, Wed 31 Mar 2010, 10:10, Reply)

Why else wouldn't he want us equal?

( girlinthehole, Wed 31 Mar 2010, 10:20, Reply)

maybe he didn't mean 'equal' as in 'standing'
Maybe he just meant 'level' but 'different'.

I dunno. I wasn't offended but I was raised being told we were a feminist household and I still have no idea what it really means.
( Roota zweeeeeoooooowm, Wed 31 Mar 2010, 10:24, Reply)

I wasn't offended because he had no malice behind it.

( girlinthehole, Wed 31 Mar 2010, 10:27, Reply)

If I thought he meant women should be 'well-treated second class citizens'
I'd have been VERY offended!
But I don't think he did.
( Roota zweeeeeoooooowm, Wed 31 Mar 2010, 10:28, Reply)

Well if were not equal and were not second class then what are we

( girlinthehole, Wed 31 Mar 2010, 10:29, Reply)

I think he meant equal as in 'same'
If you know what I mean.
We'reas you're talking about 'equal' as in rights/opportunities?
( Roota zweeeeeoooooowm, Wed 31 Mar 2010, 10:30, Reply)

yeah, this

( Vipros. clever got me this far, then tricky got me in, Wed 31 Mar 2010, 10:31, Reply)

to me that looks like arguing semantics

( Vipros. clever got me this far, then tricky got me in, Wed 31 Mar 2010, 10:31, Reply)

Only Porky knows what he means.
Until he makes it clear we'll never know.
( girlinthehole, Wed 31 Mar 2010, 10:34, Reply)

Hmmm. He could've used better phrasing.
Why should we be different? I'm not arguing that there aren't necessarily innate biological differences (the jury is out on the impact of those) but why should we be different? Unfortunately for porkylips, his choice of words "I don't want equal women" could easily be construed as inflammatory (was it intended as such?), as is the idea that he can want women to be a specific way.
( crackhouseceilidhband Fuck off back to Mumsnet, Wed 31 Mar 2010, 10:10, Reply)

I think there is a difference in perception
whether that has come about because of the way things are in terms of non-equality, or whether it is a brain thing I don't know, but examining our different views on what is a pretty simple statement from porkylips is fairly telling.

I doubt many men would place any significance on the "I don't want" part.
( Vipros. clever got me this far, then tricky got me in, Wed 31 Mar 2010, 10:14, Reply)

And is that difference biological or social/cultural, eh?

( crackhouseceilidhband Fuck off back to Mumsnet, Wed 31 Mar 2010, 10:16, Reply)

I suspect some of each
hard to tell though without being more of a student of psychology.

we all know that men and women place different significance on different things, but I don't think it is clear cut which are affected by biology and which by culture.
( Vipros. clever got me this far, then tricky got me in, Wed 31 Mar 2010, 10:17, Reply)

We have a history of subjegation which makes us see things differently to men.
I suggest that if it interests you then you read up on feminism. If it doesn't interest you then no probs but don't try to argue about that which you know little about.

Edit - Plus I'm not very good at putting across what I mean so reading about it would be preferable to my ranting.
( girlinthehole, Wed 31 Mar 2010, 10:26, Reply)

understood
I wasn't arguing so much as trying to clarify a couple of bits of male thinking, which I do know sometihng about, and to seek some clarification of my own.

edit: I know what you mean about not getting your point across, I struggle. As we can see from the above, words mean slightly different things to different people.
( Vipros. clever got me this far, then tricky got me in, Wed 31 Mar 2010, 10:29, Reply)

I remember starting uni and reading loads of books about all aspects of feminism and being blown away.
I wasn't fully aware of my situation until then so I understand where you are coming from.

It really is very interesting stuff.
( girlinthehole, Wed 31 Mar 2010, 10:35, Reply)

It certainly is interesting
I was astounded by how, when I tried to look at things objectively, society generally caters for me as a man so much more, especially in terms of career expectations.

It made me angry at first, but then hearing from rabid fundamentalist feminists made me feel as if I have nothing to contribute as a man, so as far as I'm concerned the problem is best ignored.

It's like they've built up this image of the evil uncaring patriarch so fervently that they don't want men any other way.
(StapMyVitals wouldn't mind a bit of that, Wed 31 Mar 2010, 12:43, Reply)

but they are the minority
the majority of woman simply want equality. They don't want to smash men in or rape them or keep them in zoos. They want the knowledge that they are as likely to get a job, keep it and make their own choices in life, and at the current time that is not in place
( Amberl was stripey and dominated Europe, Wed 31 Mar 2010, 12:48, Reply)

I'd feel uncomfortable
with anyone who said 'different but valued.' Different in what way? You mean different in that we are of a certain type? That our abilities and capability is different to that of men. But it doesn't matter because we're good at what *really* matters- being empathetic and having children.

Have you ever noticed that when people say different but equal, what they actually mean is 'I have a stereotype of women. It includes virtues I don't want and don't need but am going to pretend are just as good.'
( Amberl was stripey and dominated Europe, Wed 31 Mar 2010, 11:57, Reply)

Er
Different in that you are a human being and therefore different from everyone else. This is the problem I have with feminism now. It isn't inclusive enough.
(porkylips looks better as the sun goes down., Wed 31 Mar 2010, 12:54, Reply)

But if all humans being are different
then why feel the need to start throwing 'equal but different' around specifically about women?
The reason feminism wasn't inclusive enough (no excuse for it now) was simply that there is only so much fighting you can do at a time. And woman got the shorter end of the stick than almost any other group. And it still goes on. The annual income of two lesbians for example, is proportionally far less than a gay partnership. Now it could be because all lesbians are dykes who spend their day doing raffia knitting, eating vegan food and whining about opression, or it could be because there is fundamental inequality in the system that needs to be tackled. The point is people only have enough energy to fight their own corner.

Personally I stand by the equality motto. No better treated no worse, taken on value as a person not as a gender. The fact I'm a woman shouldn't mean I'm prejudged. If I'm a twat fair enough. But the fact I own one shouldn't be my defining characteristic
( Amberl was stripey and dominated Europe, Wed 31 Mar 2010, 13:09, Reply)

The catchphrase of segregation amongst the 'merkins
was "separate but equal". It's a laudable goal, in theory. The problem is effecting the idea so that neither group gets a raw deal in practice.

That's why I'm generally for the closest thing to equality rather than a "celebration of differences". If there are social differences between two groups there'll always be (often justified) grounds to say that one group is actually secretly getting the shitty end of the stick.
(StapMyVitals wouldn't mind a bit of that, Wed 31 Mar 2010, 12:34, Reply)

I feel that no one is equal nor should we be but we all should have the same opportunities.
Having raised two daughters and having a number of nephews I do see what appear to be differences between males and femals although how to account for differneces caused by socialization vs nature is difficult or impossible.

That said, we should all be allowed to screw up equally based on our own person failures!

There is good news for women however (as I see it anyway). I work in a traditionally male dominated science (geology). When I started 30 some years ago the only women we saw were our secretaries. More and more women however are getting into this field, and women now make up close to 50% of the scientific staff in my office. Opening up this science has provided some interesting changes in how we view things. This has been a good thing.

(I still however have to remember that when in the field, I can't cuss as much or just take a p--- anywhere anymore. Also, there is less beer drinking and arguing about rocks which was one of the things that first attracted me to geology).
(MichaelS wasn't picked again, Wed 31 Mar 2010, 13:23, Reply)

I don't want women equal
because I see that as a slightly condescending and possibly pointless thing. I want them to HAVE equality in all things while celebrating and valuing their differences as human beings. In my own way I feel I am better off ignoring feminism in favour of my all-encompassing fervour for equality. I was brought up in the 60s by very egalitarian parents (my dad was treasurer and secretary of the local communist party and was a great believer in the communist ideal) so I've never really had a problem with feminism or feminists, I've always thought it silly not to utilise and reward any person's talents when necessary. It's only as I've got older and thought about things more that I have found myself wishing that feminism could be subsumed in a greater push for equality which would make feminism irrelevant.

I do realise that this is a far from equal world and that until feminists see their ideal achieved we will be unable to proceed to the equality for all paradigm. It just seems such a waste of energy when we should all be pulling together.

From each according to their talents, to each according to their needs.
(porkylips looks better as the sun goes down., Wed 31 Mar 2010, 11:34, Reply)

Surely the similarities between men and women much outweigh the differences?
The "equality for all paradigm" IS the goal of feminism. You seem to be confusing the word "feminism" with "pro-women (at the expense of men)". That's not it at all. Nor is there one single feminist orthodoxy. The underlying motivation, however, is that peoples' biology should not shape their destiny any more than the colour of their skin should.
( crackhouseceilidhband Fuck off back to Mumsnet, Wed 31 Mar 2010, 14:55, Reply)

Well why the fuck call it feminism if it is for all?
That's just downright rude and confusing that is.

In which case I will now support it fully as well as my favourite egalitarianism. TBH anything that improves the lot of disadvantaged people (for whatever reason) is ok in my book. Every little helps (Philosophy 101 - The Tesco Principle).
(porkylips looks better as the sun goes down., Wed 31 Mar 2010, 15:36, Reply)

I agree, the language is not ideal.
The principles, however, are much fairer.

I suppose it could be argued that the current default state in our society is 'masculinism' and that 'feminism' seeks to redress the balance. I don't like the fact that the term 'feminism' can be construed as some kind of female superiority agenda (hence me banging on about how it's actually an attempt at gaining equal opportunities and rights).
( crackhouseceilidhband Fuck off back to Mumsnet, Wed 31 Mar 2010, 16:06, Reply)

Thank you
you said what most people think clearly :)

Feminism is not pro women at the expense of men. On the other hand a lot of people don't grasp the semantics- like the difference between women's history and gender history.
( Amberl was stripey and dominated Europe, Wed 31 Mar 2010, 16:25, Reply)