Survival technique.
My 2 pennorth if that's OK.
Racism, along with possibly all other isms is founded in prejudice. Prejudice in this context is a partially outdated survival shortcut. If a group was all "we" and someone arrived on the scene who wasn't "we" they were a possible threat to life and were quickly identified as "them". The safest route to "we's" survival was to kill "them" rather than wait to find out if they were a threat or not. This would apply to anyone or anything who was not "us". It could be people of a different colour, people from a different tribe with the same colour, of wild animals previously not encountered or even aliens from other planets, should they drop by.
Unfortunately as we become more civilised this instinctive genocidal behaviour becomes redundant but because it's instinctive it's a difficult habit to break. There is nothing stronger or more successful in nature than a cohesive group so this tends to be the preferred default. If we aren't allowed to kill "them" (incidentally aren't we brilliant at justifying doing so) then we use the slightly diluted method called scapegoating. So we may say, "People from ....... are ....... and if we let them mix with us their behaviour will damage our group." By scapegoating we are not killing the person but we are effectively killing their influence on our group, we deny them from the rights granted to "we" by categorising them as not the same as us, therefore justifying our decision to treat them as less than human.
When one day the brain develops sufficiently to overcome this survival technique we will be able to act towards others without prejudice and judge them for what they really are. In the meantime I guess we'll have to settle for believing that we are already doing it. We're not.
And for grandads and everyone else the only limit is the group must have at least two members. I knew a grandfather, not mine, who said, "Don't talk to people from.......village, they got two bloody 'eads that lot."
( edjogs Collared doves are shit., Mon 31 Oct 2011, 16:58, 66 replies)

Are you saying that prejudice is the cause of autism????
I thought it was the MMR jab...boy, do I feel foolish.
( number5 has been fighting tramps and losing., Mon 31 Oct 2011, 17:29, closed)

You're right, should have said,
"All the other isms I've thought of so far."
(See how cohesive thought has already improved the potential of this small group?)
( edjogs Collared doves are shit., Mon 31 Oct 2011, 17:39, closed)

I got as far as 'Racism is founded in prejudice'
and realised that reading the rest was going to annoy the fuck out of me.

For some reason i still read it.

Now there is no fuck left in me.
( scarpe We Stole Bikes, Mon 31 Oct 2011, 17:34, closed)

I see what you did there.
Your prejudice told you it was a bad idea to seek more information.
A good point perfectly illustrated.
( edjogs Collared doves are shit., Mon 31 Oct 2011, 17:41, closed)

But I overcame it, you see.
Wasn't worth the effort. But I did.
( scarpe We Stole Bikes, Mon 31 Oct 2011, 17:43, closed)

So your brain is at a more advanced stage already,
Going well isn't it?
( edjogs Collared doves are shit., Mon 31 Oct 2011, 17:45, closed)

Proving that in some cases, prejudice is a good thing
I'm prejudiced against pretentious verbal masturbation - after reading the first line, I stopped. Checking the comments, looks like I made the right choice
(Godwin's Lawyer is more evil than Hitler, Tue 1 Nov 2011, 22:35, closed)

Thanks.
I just figured people were killing each other as part of a in-joke!

I had no idea it was that fing wot u said.
( 6821isnotmyPIN Bored cig., Mon 31 Oct 2011, 17:56, closed)

I don't buy it. Young children are the most uncivilised form of human there is and they get on just fine.

The concept of 'instinctive racism' is one of the most racist ideas there is.
( Ring Of Fire A petty, drooling belming butthurt retard., Mon 31 Oct 2011, 18:29, closed)

I question your generalisation that
young children get on just fine.They often have gangs and scapegoats without being taught to do so.
And if racial prejudice along with other prejudices is not founded on instinct then it must be the product of an intelligent thought process. If that's the case start the car.
( edjogs Collared doves are shit., Mon 31 Oct 2011, 18:50, closed)

This is the same argument used by the church, that man left to his own devices is a murderous savage ruled by instinct, and only the civilising force of (whatever idea it is being pushed) turns him away from this state.
( Ring Of Fire A petty, drooling belming butthurt retard., Mon 31 Oct 2011, 19:27, closed)

If that is what the church is saying then I disagree with them.
What I believe is that we are a successful organism because of certain useful instinctive behaviours, some of which are now not relevant to our society and hopefully the brain will catch up at some point. Or we could leave it to the U.N.
( edjogs Collared doves are shit., Mon 31 Oct 2011, 19:39, closed)

You could just as well argue that racism was born out of the forces 'civilisation'; church, state and empire, where the deficiencies of 'the savage' where used as an excuse to steal resources, land and enslave.
( Ring Of Fire A petty, drooling belming butthurt retard., Mon 31 Oct 2011, 19:49, closed)

I could if it wasn't for the fact that the prejudice
pre-dates all of the above. Chimpanzees have it. If we didn't retain part of it we would soon be dead from dithering about whether it's better to steer towards or away from a head on collision.
I agree with the second part of your statement. Calling people savages is a way of scapegoating and gives an excuse to treat them as less than human, a point I made in the lead post.
( edjogs Collared doves are shit., Mon 31 Oct 2011, 20:14, closed)

I'd say the evidence of long distance trade in the Palaeolithic would indicate the natural state of humans is to work for mutual benefit, which is why we're not chimps.
( Ring Of Fire A petty, drooling belming butthurt retard., Mon 31 Oct 2011, 20:31, closed)

Exactly, the cohesive group with common values.
You've got it spot on there. It's when we meet other groups which we perceive as "different" that the excrement hits the cooling apparatus.
( edjogs Collared doves are shit., Mon 31 Oct 2011, 20:44, closed)

No not exactly.
At a time when people lived in groups of less than a hundred there was long distance trade. I guess this meant different people managed meet each other without behaving like chimps.
( Ring Of Fire A petty, drooling belming butthurt retard., Mon 31 Oct 2011, 20:58, closed)

There is long distance trade now but
There is also a plethora of negative isms which prevent human beings as a race from realising our full potential.
Wouldn't knock the chimps though. If they hadn't found a succesful regime we wouldn't be having this conversation
( edjogs Collared doves are shit., Mon 31 Oct 2011, 21:20, closed)

Chimps are our evolutionary cousins, not our ancestors
So whatever they do or don't do, has no direct bearing on our behaviour, except in as much as all primate behaviour is related.

Just to chip in further, the surviving ancient communities - tribes in the Amazon or Papua New Guinea, who still live as we would have thousands of years ago - have a very strong sense of "us and them" - raiding other tribes' villages for land, food or women. Not sure if that counts as racism, but they certainly don't live in a permanent state of happy-clappy tolerance!
(moon monkey is busy making memories worth repressing, Tue 1 Nov 2011, 13:32, closed)

Probably one of the more reasoned debates on here
Fence sitting personally, I don't think historically modern man has got on well with his other species, did we not wipe out the old Neanderthals? That was modern people working together to overcome a more powerful version of ourselves (if i remember right, they were a lot stronger but we were a lot smarter).

Still, even today, racism or not, people prefer the company of their own be it religious, social or ethnic and that goes for all parties.
(fivetide, Tue 1 Nov 2011, 15:28, closed)

Believing that you’re particular beliefs or practices are somehow representative of the average human, i.e. no one wants to believe they are a weirdo, is a common misconception. Nonces often think everyone is attracted to children, thieves think everybody is dishonest, and racists think racism is normal.
( Ring Of Fire A petty, drooling belming butthurt retard., Tue 1 Nov 2011, 18:46, closed)

Oh, and know one knows what happened to the Neanderthals. Some think they were out-competed, some think absorbed by hybridisation, or were wiped out by environmental changes.
( Ring Of Fire A petty, drooling belming butthurt retard., Tue 1 Nov 2011, 19:36, closed)

At the risk of appearing pedantic,
if my family tree is shakey I don't think that has much bearing on the argument, especially as the chimpanzees don't know that's what they are called. Descent from any species of ape produces the same qualities of racism in it's general form.
As for your further chip in. That completely sums up what I was trying to say, but much more concisely. Thanks for that.
( edjogs Collared doves are shit., Tue 1 Nov 2011, 15:31, closed)

I haven't come across much racism in my town, but if you mention someone from Buxton (12 miles away, same county), all hell breaks loose
People from Buxton are backwards, criminal, sheep-shagging bag-heads, apparently.
(IHateSprouts is baking a huge pie shaped like an enormous pie, Mon 31 Oct 2011, 18:47, closed)

I agree with you, it can be
any town, village,or country where you don't live. And if we wanted to ritualise it we could invent football.
( edjogs Collared doves are shit., Mon 31 Oct 2011, 18:53, closed)

well played, sir.

(Gritty, yet fluffy. kipperpillock is obsessed with me =), Mon 31 Oct 2011, 23:53, closed)

Racism? In football? Whoever heard of such a thing in the modern world?
Yours Messrs Terry & Suarez


(Allegedly)
( number5 has been fighting tramps and losing., Wed 2 Nov 2011, 17:47, closed)

Sociology students really are the lowest form of scum.
I say we throw aside all other prejudices and unite against smug wankers like you.
( monster munch person, man, woman... camera... TV?, Mon 31 Oct 2011, 19:12, closed)

I've never met a sociology student so
I cannot comment usefully on your apparently random criticism of them. Also if I was smug I'd be telling you I have the answers and clearly I don't. I only have questions, such as was that an instinctive prejudiced remark you made about the students or have you met all of them and come to a considered opinion? Thank you for your valuable contribution.
( edjogs Collared doves are shit., Mon 31 Oct 2011, 19:19, closed)

People like you are very difficult to insult.
It all just bounces off.
:(
( monster munch person, man, woman... camera... TV?, Mon 31 Oct 2011, 20:13, closed)

bouncist

( sutit only the crumbliest, flakiest posts, Mon 31 Oct 2011, 20:19, closed)

If you cut me do I not......etc.
But you don't cut me. On here we are both some typing
( edjogs Collared doves are shit., Mon 31 Oct 2011, 20:21, closed)

Yeah,
I gave up my half hearted effort pretty quickly when I realised it wouldn't get me anywhere, as you can see.
( scarpe We Stole Bikes, Mon 31 Oct 2011, 20:34, closed)

I hate
justifications like this. Fact is anyone who is racist or comes up with this kind of justification does not belong or fit into my community. They are not "we" they are "them" and they should be all rounded up and killed as they threaten my survival and my cohesive group.

Oh...
( sutit only the crumbliest, flakiest posts, Mon 31 Oct 2011, 20:17, closed)

It was never my intention to justify negative behaviour of any kind.
Merely to explain my own view on why it's so difficult to shift.
Oh and don't worry, I did see what you did.
( edjogs Collared doves are shit., Mon 31 Oct 2011, 20:26, closed)

ok !

( sutit only the crumbliest, flakiest posts, Mon 31 Oct 2011, 20:49, closed)

"When one day the brain develops sufficiently to overcome this survival technique we will be able to act towards others without prejudice and judge them for what they really are. In the meantime I guess we'll have to settle for believing that we are already doing it. We're not."

you know, some of us do. And it's really, really fucking lonely.
Also - very thoughtful and well-written. Also preachy and not enough swears. I want to give you a chinese-burn.
(Gritty, yet fluffy. kipperpillock is obsessed with me =), Tue 1 Nov 2011, 0:00, closed)

Ha! No swearies in your post either.
Yes it is preachy, that's a debating style I'm striving to perfect lol. Think I may have a small insight into your feelings. When I was seven I was the first kid from our street to attend a brand new school. The next street was much larger and held six kids from the same school. They spotted me on the way home and immediately scapegoated me and from then on threw stones at me every afternoon all the way home. As a seven year old I couldn't possibly work out what was happening so I assumed they hated me for good reason and started to doubt myself. Luckily I ended up going to a different secondary school from the other lads so the bullying stopped. This part of my young life was bad enough for me but mercifully it only lasted around three years. Had it been a lifetime thing I wonder if I would have coped. On the upside hopefully it helps me see where other people are coming from.
It seems to me it's possible to victimise people for any reason you care to invent; race, colour, sexuality, handicap, height, ginger hair, living in a different street, ad infinitum. The common criterion being "There are more than us than of you and we can find a difference to put a label on."
Also I agree with you that "some of us do". My "survival instinct" spiel refers to prejudice in general and that it is more powerful than conscious thought. Sometimes prejudice is still useful for example in safety issues or we would keep running with scissors until we got stabbed. When we personally overcome isms I think we may still have the prejudices subconsciously but we counteract them using the conscious brain. After all to prejudge only means to act on existing knowledge although it may of course be faulty knowledge.
Oh and I do enough swearing on /board but I wanted to treat this subject with respect. Ta for your valuable comments.
( edjogs Collared doves are shit., Tue 1 Nov 2011, 9:31, closed)

I'm reliably informed that "handicap" is an offensive term,
you insensitive cunt.
( monster munch person, man, woman... camera... TV?, Tue 1 Nov 2011, 9:37, closed)

Now here's a whole other wagon and I can already hear the music playing.
A friend at school had severe polio. He ended up with both legs in calipers. He, his doctors and the rest of us described his condition as a handicap. For some reason handicapped became a derogotary term (who decides these things?) and we now talk of things like "learning difficulties" or whatever is the flavour this month. Well Tony Macrae didn't have learning difficulties, he was brilliant academically but had a great deal of trouble walking and tragically died in his thirties. Spastic is a medical term referring to muscle spasm caused by cerebal palsy. This is a good example of a condition's name being used to insult the patient and then extended to include anyone else you want to insult. So here's another complication. It's not the word/s but the intention behind it/them. If I come from a time when handicapped meant nothing more than finding certain activities difficult or impossible owing to a medical condition why do I have to change my word because of political correctness?
( edjogs Collared doves are shit., Tue 1 Nov 2011, 11:44, closed)

I dunno. Can they shoot you for crimes against political correctness yet?

(Gritty, yet fluffy. kipperpillock is obsessed with me =), Tue 1 Nov 2011, 14:22, closed)

.Depending on who you mean by "they"
the short answer is yes
( edjogs Collared doves are shit., Tue 1 Nov 2011, 15:22, closed)

/*gulps nervously*

(Gritty, yet fluffy. kipperpillock is obsessed with me =), Thu 3 Nov 2011, 4:30, closed)

Hmm...
It's difficult to agree with what seems a fairly pessimistic view of human nature given our capacity for cooperation. But I think that you're right in saying that we really value the cohesion of our group and tend to act, subconsciously, over-cautiously to try to preserve it.

In Guns, Germs & Steel, Jared Diamond relates how when two New Guineans, who don't know each, other meet they will desperately talk in order to try to find some remote family connection between them so that they have a reason not to kill each other. Quite depressing really but I think it probably just reflects our belief that we know the intentions of and share our interests with those in "our group", not matter how big that group is.

Incidentally I've always thought that the term "scapegoating" refers to the erroneous attribution of blame, for some specific problem or just general woe, to a specific individual, usually within the group, who is then ostracised or exiled with the symoblic effect of taking the problem/woe with them. You seem to be using it to describe a more general and sometimes pre-emptive form of exclusion.
(flimflam_machine, Tue 1 Nov 2011, 11:07, closed)

Sorry if I seem pessimistic but this is only a part of it.
I am actually quite optimistic about the future. Very recent research on the human brain, impossible before modern scanners, is coming up with some, to me, astounding stuff. For instance it has been shown by tracing neural pathways that the receptors triggered by nicotine withdrawal are the same ones triggered if you were forced to watch someone being tortured.* No wonder smoking is so easy to give up.
So I'm always optimistic that we can overcome most things, given time but I believe that first we have to identify the problem. And if the problem proves to be an automatic defence mechanism then the sooner we can work on bypassing it the better. However there is another barrier. The people most likely to want to neutralise isms are the victims of isms and by definition are in the minority. Persuading the perpetrators to change is the biggie.
*Source: The Decisive Moment written by Jonah Lehrer or cop his website.
( edjogs Collared doves are shit., Tue 1 Nov 2011, 11:59, closed)

"The people most likely to want to neutralise isms are the victims of isms and by definition are in the minority. Persuading the perpetrators to change is the biggie.."
errrr no. Actually they are the 99%.

99% is not a minority.
(Gritty, yet fluffy. kipperpillock is obsessed with me =), Tue 1 Nov 2011, 14:25, closed)

Whoa there Bessie!
where did that sudden stat come from?
( edjogs Collared doves are shit., Tue 1 Nov 2011, 15:21, closed)

I'm not sure who came up with the slogan. It shouldn't matter.
www.occupytogether.org/downloadable-posters/

But the people seem keen =)

Probably because:-
wearethe99percent.tumblr.com/

Click the link that says 'Allow Us to Introduce Ourselves'.

There is nearly 200 pages now, I've been reading it since it had 18. This is what happened to America.
(Gritty, yet fluffy. kipperpillock is obsessed with me =), Thu 3 Nov 2011, 4:41, closed)

***SWEEPING GENERALISATION ALERT***
The sound of massive leaps of logic being taken and wildly subjective conclusions being formed is ringing in my ears.
( number5 has been fighting tramps and losing., Tue 1 Nov 2011, 17:48, closed)

In regard to our capacity for co-operation
I think it is totally overshadowed by our capacity to be a unco-operative, "because we can".
(M61A1 CUPID- STUNTS, Tue 1 Nov 2011, 14:30, closed)

A wonderful, balanced view
It's just a shame that when you quote logic and raw facts they don't seem to be very popular these days.

Your point is easy to prove and has few flaws, but it doesn't stop people thinking you're having a dig at "them" and responding negatively.

I saw a report a couple of years ago about insurance claims, and why women had cheaper premiums. Essentially it was that men tended to have fewer accidents, but when they did it would be of the sort "I'm overtaking here at 90mph, oh I've written my car off" type. Women statistically had MORE accidents, but generally at much slower speeds, and invariably below the excess level, so didn't always claim.

A large number of women that wrote in to complain disputing the figures, as if they'd actually done a comprehensive survey themselves! Surely a case of defending "your group" regardless...
(Kliper Filllets Getting noticed by twats on the internet since, Tue 1 Nov 2011, 12:38, closed)

people get offended online?
And "quoting" one highly emotively-charged (read: laden with barely disguised sexism) but nonetheless singular isolated incident in an attempt to prop up your proselytizing is a lazy act.

I find your lazy proselytizing straw man argument to be offensive. I'm so fucking offended at your crimes against logic right now.
(Gritty, yet fluffy. kipperpillock is obsessed with me =), Tue 1 Nov 2011, 14:37, closed)

Grow up little boy
I assume you did all your homework to prove it's an isolated incident, and not a report compiled by insurance brokers over the past 10 years?

Thought not. I'm glad I offended you. You seem to be easily offended, and yet highly opinionated. I'd call you a cunt, but they're useful.

By the way, try re-reading what I wrote (I know it's hard to comprehend, so read s-l-o-w-l-y). I didn't say I agreed with the report. I was just highlighting the responses it generated. Muppet.
(Kliper Filllets Getting noticed by twats on the internet since, Tue 1 Nov 2011, 18:07, closed)

What you said.
Saves me having to type it, thanks.
( number5 has been fighting tramps and losing., Tue 1 Nov 2011, 18:23, closed)

My pleasure.
Helping "Gritty, Yet Fluffy" understand the world a bit more feels like I'm doing my bit for Care in the Community.
(Kliper Filllets Getting noticed by twats on the internet since, Wed 2 Nov 2011, 10:00, closed)

It is a bit of a labour of love isn't it?
I wonder when their next assessment for treatment is.
( number5 has been fighting tramps and losing., Wed 2 Nov 2011, 13:32, closed)

shit. is this b3ta.com?
or lemonparty.orgy?
get a room you two.
(Gritty, yet fluffy. kipperpillock is obsessed with me =), Thu 3 Nov 2011, 4:45, closed)

Oh, I see now..
Everything you say is correct. Anyone that disagrees with you is wrong. And if two people happen to agree with each other about you, they are gay.

You really know how to put your argument across, and make yourself look mature and well balanced, don't you.
(Kliper Filllets Getting noticed by twats on the internet since, Thu 3 Nov 2011, 7:20, closed)

GYF just needs a brew to go with their daily meds.
Then they will be fine.
( number5 has been fighting tramps and losing., Thu 3 Nov 2011, 8:20, closed)

Many arguments have what appear to be valid, reasonable yet conflicting
tenets. The problem is often what value you place on the respective conclusions as to which points one finds the most convincing.

Humans have an immense capacity for co-operation but also find it incredibly easy to fear the 'different' and I would venture that it is not impossible for both of these states to be simultaneously normal. Why do we always assume that we can control our own nature?
( number5 has been fighting tramps and losing., Tue 1 Nov 2011, 17:53, closed)

You don't have to go outside this thread
to see examples of all the points you make.
As for your final question, I obviously don't think we can fully control our nature. My lead post postulates the opposite.
However my hope would be that evolution is still ongoing and if it is then I wonder what improvements are left. Unfortunately none of us can ever know the answer but wouldn't it be nice if our children could have brains powerful enough to understand our brains better and use this knowledge to improve everyone's lot?
( edjogs Collared doves are shit., Tue 1 Nov 2011, 20:34, closed)

I take your point.
I have a fairly low opinion of humanity and our expectation of a seat at the top table of evolution so I almost certainly don't give that evolutionary hope as much credence as I should I suppose. I tend to think of us all as an inconvenience to earth.that will in due course be deleted along with the sabre toothed tiger and the great auk.
( number5 has been fighting tramps and losing., Tue 1 Nov 2011, 21:02, closed)

Well if evolution finds us superfluous so be it.
Better start praying.
( edjogs Collared doves are shit., Tue 1 Nov 2011, 22:30, closed)

Don't get anyone started on god for crying out loud!

( number5 has been fighting tramps and losing., Wed 2 Nov 2011, 8:03, closed)

pussy

(Gritty, yet fluffy. kipperpillock is obsessed with me =), Thu 3 Nov 2011, 4:48, closed)

One irrational naively idealist argument per week for me is generally enough.
My puny brain can't deal with any more. Makes me want a cup of tea. Milk, sugar?
( number5 has been fighting tramps and losing., Thu 3 Nov 2011, 8:24, closed)