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This is a link post 4 years for trying to incite a riot on facebook. Too harsh?
Got to say i'm conflicted on this one. Whilst I believe a more authoritarian response is in order
4 years seems a bit steep.
 (I helped save b3ta! Cerebus Sticky! Sticky! Stick! Stick!, Wed 17 Aug 2011, 9:03, Reply)
This is a normal post Depends...
It could be seen as an excuse to get rid of the twats the police have had an eye on locally for ages but unable to get a decent conviction.

Though, if deemed unfair and overly harsh, it could mean that next time those participating may deem it as a nothing to lose last stand affair; rather than pottering home to their beds when it rains.
 (I helped save b3ta! zacherynuk @echo off, Wed 17 Aug 2011, 9:14, Reply)
This is a normal post For the record,
Neither of the people convicted had any prior convictions.
 (I helped save b3ta! IHaveABadFeelingAboutThis most likely working from home on, Wed 17 Aug 2011, 9:35, Reply)
This is a normal post I think it's ok
as long as the arsonists and assault/muggers also get sentences as long as can be given out.

Oh, and anyone parked by a meter for more than 2 days without topping it up should get their burnt out car clamped.

But I suspect it will never be a fair unbiased system so ambiguities will always happen.
 (I helped save b3ta! Professor Fnord Regius Professor of B3ta Chronology, Wed 17 Aug 2011, 9:42, Reply)
This is a normal post Maybe they shouldn't have encouraged people to start a riot.

(pissflaps. FSPW, Wed 17 Aug 2011, 9:46, Reply)
This is a normal post Maybe they shouldn't be stupid kids.
Now they are forever condemned to the jobless scrapheap at the bottom of our society. Anyone who knows even the slightest about criminology will tell you that prison is effectively the university of crime: go in as an amateur and come out as a professional.

Nice one legal system! Two more career criminals for privatised prison services to make a tidy sum off of over the next 20-40 years (at taxpayers' expense).

Fuck anyone who thinks this is a good idea. Fuck them in the face.
 (teh gman will uplaod your c0d3z, Wed 17 Aug 2011, 10:06, Reply)
This is a normal post Exactly!!
My idea of smashing their finger bones with a hammer is cheap, quick and excruciatingly painful. It also means that they would not have to go to prison and avoid all the stuff you pointed out.

Maybe give them the choice though so that they can play a role in their own rehabilitation process. Let them choose fingers or toes to be smashed, in any combination.
 (pissflaps. FSPW, Wed 17 Aug 2011, 10:14, Reply)
This is a normal post MESSAGE FROM THE POLICE:
YOU ARE INCITING GRIEVOUS BODILY HARM ON THE INTERNETS! YOU MUST BE PUNISHED! 10 YEARS IN THE NICK FOR YOU SONNY JIM...wait, B3ta is anonymous...this might require some technical proficiency to investigate...fuck it.
 (teh gman will uplaod your c0d3z, Wed 17 Aug 2011, 10:24, Reply)
This is a normal post true
although from what I've read, nothing happened...so in effect they've been sent to prison for inciting an event that didn't happen. I've read a lot of stuff on facebook that can be taken the same way, will certainly be food for thought. 'storm the parliament if they close hospital x' etc etc. I've had loads of invites to imaginary events in the last year which are just protest pages (I'm not comparing that to their page at all) but if I lived in England I'd be reluctant to click 'attending' on some of them now...
 (poocheim No al calcio moderno, Wed 17 Aug 2011, 10:10, Reply)
This is a normal post Exactly. How about political activist groups like UKuncut or environmentalists?
A lot of what they do falls foul of some archaic law, and it is on this basis that they are generally arrested at or after their protests (while the CPS almost always throws the case out because it won't stand up in court).

Will it be incitement to express a desire to stage a protest? Where do they draw the line?

Our country marching at pace towards a very dark future. All of the people whose response to the riots was "OMG BANG EM UP! THA ANIMALS!" or "[insert reactionary garbage driven by fear/hatred here]" are metaphorically holding hands and skipping along with the stern police officer and smug politician (who thinks you're all idiots, don't prove him right) that are leading us there.
 (teh gman will uplaod your c0d3z, Wed 17 Aug 2011, 10:20, Reply)
This is a normal post I feel like you've missed the distinction
between a protest and a riot. Organizing a bunch of your mates to make a political point is within the law. Organizing a bunch of your mates to go smash stuff up and nick things isn't.
 (I helped save b3ta! evil_andy Stick stick stick stick sticky sticky stick stick, Wed 17 Aug 2011, 11:33, Reply)
This is a normal post Then again sometimes the line gets blured
A lot of protests these days end up smashing stuff up as if
they think this is the natural order for a protest.

So if this sets a precedent someone creating a FB page encouraging people
to smash up fortnum and masons would be subject to the same punishment.
 (I helped save b3ta! Cerebus Sticky! Sticky! Stick! Stick!, Wed 17 Aug 2011, 12:02, Reply)
This is a normal post No. My point is that law makes no distinction between the two, depending on how it is applied.
Especially when there is pressure from the Home Office to "make an example" and "send a message that this sort of behaviour won't be tolerated".

See here: www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/jul/24/uk-uncut-fortnum-mason-police

In fact, the riots in Tottenham started as a political protest, in spite of what they became on the following nights in Hackney et al.

The G20 protests were called "riots" too, but they were purely political, the same goes for the student's tuition protests. Both were met with politically motivated policing tactics that were disproportionately harsh. It can be a very fine line.
 (teh gman will uplaod your c0d3z, Wed 17 Aug 2011, 12:05, Reply)
This is a normal post Surely the line is when you put down the placard and pick up a brick?
Just because you're doing it out anger towards a policy doesn't
negate the fact that smashing stuff up is against the law.

A protest is supposed to change things by either gathering enough
of the people behind you so come an election you can vote out the cunts.
Or make said cunts afraid of being voted out at the next election they
change now in the hope you'll vote for them again.

Just because you call something a protest does not excuse you from acting within the law.

Also, No socialist worker banner = Not a protest.
Didn't see one banner during these events.

[edit]
As a case in point. Let's bring up the BNP, NF EDL etc.
Now they would much rather this country was a little whiter.
Would it be an acceptable protest if they were to travel to an area and smash in shops owned my non-whites? Or burn down the houses of refugees?
In their head it's a protest.
 (I helped save b3ta! Cerebus Sticky! Sticky! Stick! Stick!, Wed 17 Aug 2011, 12:52, Reply)
This is a normal post I'm not going to dispute the difference between rioting and protesting, nor am I going to defend people who wilfully cause harm to other people.
You are correct in your distinction. But I will say this:

The article I linked to should demonstrate how the authorities are prepared to manipulate existing laws to punish political protesters, especially non-violent protesters, in an effort to prevent future protest.

What I'm trying to say is this: If they can put you down for 4 years for advocating a riot that never took place, how long before they extend that principle and lock up political activists who call for or suggest a protest, such as the Fortnum & Masons occupation, on the pretext that what they are advocating may break a law?

On legal grounds there isn't a distinction between motivations.

So if I said "we should occupy the TopShop on Oxford Street because billionaire owner Phillip Green pays less tax than me" on Facebook I could be arrested for 'inciting people to break the law'. Which law? Something like a 'public order offence' or 'Breach of the Queen's Peace' which is generally what political activists get locked up for.

This isn't too much of a stretch of either the imagination or the legal precedent that this case has set. How hard is that to grasp?
 (teh gman will uplaod your c0d3z, Wed 17 Aug 2011, 13:58, Reply)
This is a normal post Well if your occupying a building against the wishes of the owner then you are breaking the law.
What you have to ask yourself is if you believe in the cause enough to take the punishment.

Also you site the example of the F&M "occupation". That was miles away from the violent protests
the these two were convicted of trying to provoke. The police would probably use the law to
get the FB page taken down though not likely to earn you a 4 year span.

I don't get this generation with their attitude to direct action. The Animal Liberation Front never expected
to be let off if they were caught. The hunger strikers never expected last minute medical intervention.

You believe in a cause enough you decide to act outside of the law then bear in mind two things.
1) Be prepared to get caught and do the time knowing that it is worth it.
2) Hope that the public sympathise with you and vote along those lines encourage by your example.

Do not hijack someone else's protest march that they bothered to organise and set out an agreed route.
Do not break the law expecting daddies lawyer to sort everything out as it's just jolly japes.

And remember just because it's a left wing protest don't expect to be treated any lighter than if it were a rightwing one. To give a mirror image of your F&M occupation. What if the EDL started occupying mosques?
 (I helped save b3ta! Cerebus Sticky! Sticky! Stick! Stick!, Wed 17 Aug 2011, 15:48, Reply)
This is a normal post I'm not saying it's wrong
Just replying to Zachery's point.
 (I helped save b3ta! IHaveABadFeelingAboutThis most likely working from home on, Wed 17 Aug 2011, 10:45, Reply)
This is a normal post As long as that sentence is allowed under the relevant legislation (Public Order Act 86 presumably) then I don't have a problem with it.
the fact that it was on facebook is irrelevant. if you can't do the time, don't do the crime.

edit: found guilty of an offence under s.44 and s.46 Serious Crime Act (which replaced the common law offence of 'incitement'). Under s.44:

44 Intentionally encouraging or assisting an offence

(1)A person commits an offence if—

(a)he does an act capable of encouraging or assisting the commission of an offence; and

(b)he intends to encourage or assist its commission.

Under s.58 of the Serious Crime Act, the sentence for a person guilty of a crime under s.44 is the same as that of the offence which is incited, in this case s.1 Public Order Act which carries a maximum prison sentence of 10 years or a fine or both. So you could say they got off lightly.
 (I helped save b3ta! spesh., Wed 17 Aug 2011, 9:16, Reply)
This is a normal post I know what you mean.
One one hand they are utter twats for doing it and deserve to be punished, on the other a four year sentence seems a bit too hard. I'm guessing that the sentence will get reduced on appeal to about two years, then they will do about one year each but that will get reduced if they behave themselves.

I am still seriously convinced by my idea that they should have all the bones in their fingers smashed by a hammer.

There's a good debate about punishing the rioters V's punishing the naughty MP's on 5 Live right now.
 (pissflaps. FSPW, Wed 17 Aug 2011, 9:17, Reply)
This is a normal post I was thinking about the reduction on appeal then good behavior.
Whilst it's against human rights to force prisoners to work or train you could get rid of the
good behavior reduction and replace it with a scheme that you can earn time off your sentence
through study or work if you choose.

At the moment you can get your sentance halved by lying on your bunk and keeping your nose clean but
completely avoiding and rehabilitation.
 (I helped save b3ta! Cerebus Sticky! Sticky! Stick! Stick!, Wed 17 Aug 2011, 10:08, Reply)
This is a normal post It's just like Minority Report! :D
it does sound ridiculous, but without knowing the facts (was it a detailed plan they had worked out, would lives be at risk, was it basically a terrorist plot) we can only assume it was "lol lets meet up and riot" and be rightly appalled at the sentencing
 (I helped save b3ta! HappyToast Groat froth, Wed 17 Aug 2011, 9:18, Reply)
This is a normal post I'd wondered about that
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-14551582 sheds some light

Does seem a lot for being a bit of a knob
 (I helped save b3ta! TownsendsPublisher is all gravy baby, Wed 17 Aug 2011, 9:23, Reply)
This is a normal post hmmm didn't know sedition carried up to a 10 year sentence
but surely the maximum would be applicable after the event when you could judge how badly it went. It being a non event would be a community order surely?

but as speshulknees says if you can't do the time, don't do the crime.
 (I helped save b3ta! HappyToast Groat froth, Wed 17 Aug 2011, 9:30, Reply)
This is a normal post silly cow for not turning up to court/contesting it
but I have no sympathy if it was a rural location on a hot day, them fields do catch fire remarkably easily.
 (I helped save b3ta! HappyToast Groat froth, Wed 17 Aug 2011, 10:08, Reply)
This is a normal post fair fine
especially as she had 3 reminders to pay the fixed fine first.
 (poocheim No al calcio moderno, Wed 17 Aug 2011, 10:39, Reply)
This is a normal post Shame it was facebook
or I could have made a joke about it being the longest ever sentence on twitter.
 (I helped save b3ta! Professor Fnord Regius Professor of B3ta Chronology, Wed 17 Aug 2011, 9:25, Reply)
This is a normal post we could pretend if you like?

(I helped save b3ta! spesh., Wed 17 Aug 2011, 9:26, Reply)
This is a normal post Thanks.
The judge ordered they get a 4 year sentence, the longest in twitter history, but that it could be reduced if they use bit.ly
 (I helped save b3ta! Professor Fnord Regius Professor of B3ta Chronology, Wed 17 Aug 2011, 9:46, Reply)
This is a normal post Not sure.
5 months for accepting a pair of shorts was too harsh though.

I think it is important to remember that sentences are not punishments.
 (I helped save b3ta! LordManley twitter.com/LordManley, Wed 17 Aug 2011, 9:40, Reply)
This is a normal post You could save the prison population and just give them a 5 year not allowed on facebook sentence
If they breach it they get banned from twitter too.
 (I helped save b3ta! Professor Fnord Regius Professor of B3ta Chronology, Wed 17 Aug 2011, 9:49, Reply)
This is a normal post BURN HIM!!
I dunno, they need to show when folks do shit like this it wil be dealt with HARD, give it a year tho they'll all have them reduced.
 (I helped save b3ta! ..wil, Wed 17 Aug 2011, 9:48, Reply)
This is a normal post Well, this seems to be going slightly better than when I said it was too harsh
and got called a 'mong cunt'.
 (I helped save b3ta! scarpe We Stole Bikes, Wed 17 Aug 2011, 10:03, Reply)
This is a normal post Shuddup Mong Cunt!
The clique is talking! ;)
 (I helped save b3ta! ..wil, Wed 17 Aug 2011, 10:14, Reply)
This is a normal post I'm part of a clique? Do I get a badge?
If it was on /talk then I've never had a positive reaction to any post on /talk.
They're a bit odd over there...
 (I helped save b3ta! Cerebus Sticky! Sticky! Stick! Stick!, Wed 17 Aug 2011, 10:56, Reply)
This is a normal post They probably spell it 'click' over there
or something or nothing...
 (I helped save b3ta! ..wil, Wed 17 Aug 2011, 11:03, Reply)
This is a normal post Lucky you!
I bet it was someone from /talk. They are all paedophiles though.
 (pissflaps. FSPW, Wed 17 Aug 2011, 10:16, Reply)
This is a normal post Worse even than that
some of them can play the Ukelele
 (I helped save b3ta! ..wil, Wed 17 Aug 2011, 11:12, Reply)
This is a normal post Yuck..

I do believe that we have to send out a really strong message but 4 years is a bit OTT. 2 years - I could agree with that.

Christ knows what they would have got if there actually had been a riot. Life, probably.
 (I helped save b3ta! Legless Mister Stabby - shanks for the memory, Wed 17 Aug 2011, 10:06, Reply)
This is a normal post 10 years maximum for inciting actual violence I just read
so yes, very harsh for a non event.
 (I helped save b3ta! HappyToast Groat froth, Wed 17 Aug 2011, 10:10, Reply)
This is a normal post I know, one guy's been charged with murder
and all he did was kill a guy, www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-14541954 honestly, complete over reaction or WHAT!?

;)
 (I helped save b3ta! ..wil, Wed 17 Aug 2011, 10:22, Reply)
This is a normal post I think there is some confusion going on again
Going back to the 4 years Legless, it just struck me that this is actually quite a strong message to all the people who did organise the riots, who will no doubt see this story and may think twice.

still not fair on the kids who set up a non event facebook page
 (I helped save b3ta! HappyToast Groat froth, Wed 17 Aug 2011, 10:28, Reply)
This is a normal post Agreed, this is surely a hard punishment that will send out a message to da yoof in da ghetto.
Two young kids will get fucked up and may well go on to commit real crimes, but who really gives a shit about them.
 (pissflaps. FSPW, Wed 17 Aug 2011, 10:34, Reply)
This is a normal post Just pullin ya chain again Toasty
yeh I think they're just tryin to show a strong tough reaction, esp after all the kids interviewed and all the facebook quotes about 'What they gonna do, they can't touch us, even if they send us down the prisons are full or like hotels n stuff n shit' etc showing they feel the law, prisons and police are all soft as shit on youth here and don't feel they have anything to fear.
 (I helped save b3ta! ..wil, Wed 17 Aug 2011, 10:37, Reply)
This is a normal post ah, that's the confusion
we were talking about the 2 kids who hadn't been in the riots or committed previous offences, but were just guilty of setting up a facebook page. There's no certainty that the even would have happened, but they are still doing 4 years, which is a lot less than most rapists.
 (I helped save b3ta! HappyToast Groat froth, Wed 17 Aug 2011, 10:41, Reply)
This is a normal post It's an interesting change in events
up till recently anything said online was always seen as 'not counting', but it's pretty obvious now that regardless of the media used the point is it's affecting people and things in real life, I think the law is waking up to the fact it's gonna hafta start treating stuff done and said online just as seriously as a group sitting in a room organising crime in the streets, esp if that's exactly what they're attempting to organise.

We may all have to start thinking about what we write and do online as seriously as we would what we would say and do in public.
 (I helped save b3ta! ..wil, Wed 17 Aug 2011, 10:48, Reply)
This is a normal post scary business

(I helped save b3ta! HappyToast Groat froth, Wed 17 Aug 2011, 10:56, Reply)
This is a normal post Hangonaminutehere!
Kids? They're 21 and 22 years old.
Thats way past the growing hair in funny places squeaking voice stage.
 (I helped save b3ta! Cerebus Sticky! Sticky! Stick! Stick!, Wed 17 Aug 2011, 10:59, Reply)
This is a normal post Well anything below 25 is jailbait to me!
;)
 (I helped save b3ta! ..wil, Wed 17 Aug 2011, 11:05, Reply)
This is a normal post 'just guilty of setting up a facebook page'? that's not what they were found guilty of is it?
at least, luckily, no-one was stupid enough to act on it, it appears, but it makes no odds, they attempted to start a riot.

would it have been any different if they'd been giving out leaflets?
 (I helped save b3ta! spesh., Wed 17 Aug 2011, 11:03, Reply)
This is a normal post This is purely conjecture and opinion
but I think it may actually be different if they were handing out leaflets, yes. And I'd probably be more comfortable with the sentence too.

Handing out leaflets takes effort, planning and money. The mere fact of doing it is much more of a statement of intent than any half arsed idiot being able to set up a FB page in 30 seconds flat. I'd be a lot more inclined to take these idiots seriously if they were standing on the streets pushing pieces of paper with times and dates and messages on into people's hands.

As it is, and I don't know their motives of course, two people who were already likely to struggle to achieve anything in life have now been turned over to the hands of a failing prison system that is going to fuck them over good and proper for what could well be no more than a fleeting moment of stupidity.

Edit: Sorry, I've just realised it looks like I am following you around responding only to your points, that wasn't intentional, it just happens that your posts have been the ones that have inspired my thoughts.
 (I helped save b3ta! scarpe We Stole Bikes, Wed 17 Aug 2011, 11:13, Reply)
This is a normal post well that's alright then, we'll tell the EDL to stick to facebook and they'll be ok
edit: reply away, there would no point either of us posting if you didn't would there? :)
 (I helped save b3ta! spesh., Wed 17 Aug 2011, 11:19, Reply)
This is a normal post Well I think that over simplifes my point somewhat
It comes back to taking each case on it's merits. If there was a coordinated, organised effort by the EDL to incite violence using FB that's still different to giving a computer to two moron's and ending up with a shitty but ultimately ineffective one off FB group.

I should say again, I'm not arguing that legal action should not have been taken, I just feel quite strongly that locking two people up for four years for stupidity isn't right, sets a dangerous precedent and is abusing the law to set an example.
 (I helped save b3ta! scarpe We Stole Bikes, Wed 17 Aug 2011, 11:26, Reply)
This is a normal post I would reply to this but I will end up never leaving the house today if this goes on which is a waste of a day off.
and anyway we both have our opinions on this - whether the sentence is too harsh is probably quite subjective anyway.

but thank you for the discussion :)
 (I helped save b3ta! spesh., Wed 17 Aug 2011, 11:38, Reply)
This is a normal post Funny, I was going to say the same to you.
We were never going to agree, but it was nice to be able to discuss it without anger or abuse following.
 (I helped save b3ta! scarpe We Stole Bikes, Wed 17 Aug 2011, 12:29, Reply)
This is a normal post You're Right

Sometimes, an example has to be made to deter others who were thinking of doing the same thing.

It just sucks when you're the example.

Two kids lives are probably ruined but, next time round, people are going to think twice about doing this on the Internet.

Another way of thinking about this is they only got 6 months for inciting a riot but got an extra three and half years for being dumb enough to post this on their traceable facebook page.

Cheers
 (I helped save b3ta! Legless Mister Stabby - shanks for the memory, Wed 17 Aug 2011, 10:45, Reply)
This is a normal post That's dangeous too though
the law isn't there to set examples, it should treat every case on it's own merits, not external factors.

If the law itself is too leniant/harsh that's a different issue.
 (I helped save b3ta! scarpe We Stole Bikes, Wed 17 Aug 2011, 10:51, Reply)
This is a normal post ^This^
When Eric Cantona was initially jailed for attacking that Palace fan the judge stated that he was making an example of him because of who he was. The sentence didn't survive the appeal as the law is supposed to treat each case on the merits of the crime committed.
 (I helped save b3ta! TownsendsPublisher is all gravy baby, Wed 17 Aug 2011, 10:56, Reply)
This is a normal post I say why not make them prove their way out.
4 years or 10 GCSE B or higher and a vocational qualification, whichever comes first.
 (I helped save b3ta! zacherynuk @echo off, Wed 17 Aug 2011, 11:26, Reply)
This is a normal post That's

The best idea I've heard in ages!
 (I helped save b3ta! Legless Mister Stabby - shanks for the memory, Wed 17 Aug 2011, 11:36, Reply)
This is a normal post it doesn't matter that it was a 'non-event', they're still guilty of the offence as charged.
if you don't want legislation for incitement then you have to accept that some EDL prick will be legally entitled to start a facebook group calling on people to 'burn out the pakis' or something.

(If these two lads were EDL members and their facebook page was racially motivated, I wonder what the response would be from some of those complaining about the sentences?)?
 (I helped save b3ta! spesh., Wed 17 Aug 2011, 10:31, Reply)
This is a normal post true

(I helped save b3ta! HappyToast Groat froth, Wed 17 Aug 2011, 10:38, Reply)
This is a normal post I'm not convinced that anyone has argued that they are not guilty of the offence
just that the sentence is harsh in relation to the severity of the crime.

We are in a situation where justice is being replaced by punishment and that's a dangerous road to be on.

But what do I know, I'm a mong cunt.
 (I helped save b3ta! scarpe We Stole Bikes, Wed 17 Aug 2011, 10:41, Reply)
This is a normal post they could have got 10 years
(assuming the crime they were guilty of inciting is Riot)
 (I helped save b3ta! spesh., Wed 17 Aug 2011, 10:44, Reply)
This is a normal post I know what they could have got
but that doesn't bear any relation to whether 4 years is harsh or not.

Edit: Just seen your second point about what the reaction would be if it was EDL. I confess that I would probably find it harder to get as annoyed about, but that wouldn't neccessarily make the sentencing any less wrong, it would just need to find different voices than to mine to argue the case. And yes, that's my hypocrisy and one that I can live with.

Although the racial aspect is actually allowed for in law, so by definition the harsher sentence could be argued to be more valid anyway. So it would depend if they were explicitly inciting racial violence or not.
 (I helped save b3ta! scarpe We Stole Bikes, Wed 17 Aug 2011, 10:45, Reply)
This is a normal post They'll only actually do 2 years inside though won't they (assuming it doesn't get reduced on appeal)

(I helped save b3ta! pixel_fucker is going to need a bigger brush, Wed 17 Aug 2011, 11:47, Reply)
This is a normal post No. It isn't.

(I helped save b3ta! The Togaboy The world will end on, Wed 17 Aug 2011, 10:37, Reply)
This is a normal post Short n sweet!

(I helped save b3ta! ..wil, Wed 17 Aug 2011, 10:50, Reply)
This is a normal post Yes, it is!

(I helped save b3ta! The Togaboy The world will end on, Wed 17 Aug 2011, 11:01, Reply)
This is a normal post Harsh, but fair.
If the sentences given were namby-pamby community service orders and ASBOs, what would stop people doing the same thing in a few months time or whenever there is a genuine demonstration?
 (I helped save b3ta! mr.dogshit The world's premier anthropomorphic canine faeces, Wed 17 Aug 2011, 11:02, Reply)