mid-morning ponder
From the moment we are aware of their sex we begin to gender-stereotype children. Even if we try consciously to avoid it, it creeps in insidiously. Baby boys are dressed in blue or - if not quite so segregating - any colour but pink. Baby girls are swathed in frills and 'feminine' colours.

Then it's toy time. Much as we'd like to avoid gender-specific toys, there'll always be someone who'll hand the girl a Barbie or give the boy a toy car. How precious can we be about the toys that children possess?

The media (usually through advertising) encourage girls to play houses, play with dolls, like pink and sparkly things. Don't even start me on the Princess Complex... Boys are portrayed as rough and tumble, outdoorsy, action types. Heaven forbid they should show their emotions.

We see it in schools, we see it as kids are bullied because they don't fit into a particular gendered norm - a norm that is entirely a social construct.

We reach adulthood with these myths still hanging over us, and we see it in the jobs we chose and the wages we earn. It is reflected in the sports we play and the hobbies we have. It influences who we end up with and how.

Just a rant. I need more coffee. I'm just sad that despite the intentions of many level-head people who see the value of equality, there is a majority in this world who still believe that gender stereotypes hold true.

We need to get them while they're young.
( crackhouseceilidhband Fuck off back to Mumsnet, Thu 24 Apr 2008, 10:54, 52 replies)

"get them while they're young"
That's Mr. P. Gadd's motto.

I agree with your point though, but certain things like over-the-top arrangements for people with children that leave you picking up most of their work irritate the hell out of me.
( Cawl, Thu 24 Apr 2008, 10:57, closed)

I'm not sure that you're entirely correct
It's certainly true that there's a lot of social pressure (pink used to be considered a boy's colour...) but it's not the whole story.

Notably, there are reports of right-on parents who tried to bring up their kids in a gender-neutral way and have been shocked - SHOCKED, I tell you - to find that their daughters still wanted a dolly and their sons made weapons out of stickle-bricks.

A lot is hard-wired: again, look at the famous case of a boy who was acidentally castrated at birth, given a sex-change and brought up as a girl, but who still turned out to be... well, a guy. She got surgery to put right what had been done. There was an Horizon documentary about that. Also check out Roer Gorski (UCLA) on differences between the brain correlated by sex and sexual orientation.
( Enzyme is powered by sunlight, Thu 24 Apr 2008, 11:00, closed)

I
have absolutely no inclination to breed, as I look at some of the standards of kids and think "do I have the patience not to drop kick the little shitbag out of a window on my 3rd night of sleep dep?"

The answer is No. I don't. Im also selfish in that I don't have enough time or money for myself, let alone significant others.

Seeing as kids can't do anything these days without being given an asbo or being gang raped or murdered by thousands of maruading kiddie fiddlers and mentals on every street corner of every town its not surprising we are in a bit of a mucking fuddle nowadays
(Halfy By light alone, Thu 24 Apr 2008, 11:02, closed)

Woolworths makes me angry
I usually avoid the kids section of Woolworths as the fact that they have "Girls toys" and "Boys toys" aisles gets me so infuriated. Especially as the stuff for boys is usually so much more fun.

Apparently as a kid I was walking round Toy 'R' Us and specifically announced to my parents that I would not be going down the doll aisle as they were rubbish. Instead I got Space Lego. Awesome!
( e.m.m.y. foxtrot uniform charlie kilo india tango, Thu 24 Apr 2008, 11:03, closed)

The Princess complex
Princess = Spoilt Little Girl

I liked cars. Give me a car any day. And a Fisher Price garage.
(happylittletulip helpless and delicious, Thu 24 Apr 2008, 11:03, closed)

@Enzyme - not quite my point
though I didn't make it quite as clearly as I could have.

My fundamental argument is that the way we are raised affects our later lives (duh, obvious point CHCB), but that people seem to accept things like "maths is a man's job", "women don't have a natural aptitude for science", or "there are more men doing engineering because they're instinctively better at it", without stopping to think that maybe, just maybe, it's because they've unquestioningly accepted that when society told them so without ever seeing any hard evidence.

Edit: and I don't count Horizon as decent science.
( crackhouseceilidhband Fuck off back to Mumsnet, Thu 24 Apr 2008, 11:04, closed)

Halfy
Your post about the dangers facing kids would be true, were it not for the falsity. The world is overwhelmingly a safe place. But "Not Much At All Happens to Sixty Million People... Again" isn't the kind of headline that sells advertising space...
( Enzyme is powered by sunlight, Thu 24 Apr 2008, 11:04, closed)

@CHCB
For sure.
( Enzyme is powered by sunlight, Thu 24 Apr 2008, 11:05, closed)

enzyme
You mean me?

I know i was taking the piss. When I grew up we ran around outside from sun up to sun down occasionally popping home for a refuel, but that whole culture is gone unless you live in the sticks.
(Halfy By light alone, Thu 24 Apr 2008, 11:06, closed)

Halfy -
Ooops. Ninja'd.

Bit of a brain-spazz.
( Enzyme is powered by sunlight, Thu 24 Apr 2008, 11:07, closed)

S'ok
It just makes me laugh how much crap is media and government driven these days, thank god we are mainly a sensible lot or the bullshit paranoia we get fed 24/7 would have us all living in gated communities bringing up children in a fucking box.
(Halfy By light alone, Thu 24 Apr 2008, 11:11, closed)

and (@Enzyme again)
"A lot is hard-wired: again, look at the famous case of a boy who was acidentally castrated at birth, given a sex-change and brought up as a girl, but who still turned out to be... well, a guy. She got surgery to put right what had been done."

Sure, there may be hard-wired sex differences, but it doesn't therefore follow that boys are better at some things and girls are better at others, just because there is a sex difference, does it?
( crackhouseceilidhband Fuck off back to Mumsnet, Thu 24 Apr 2008, 11:13, closed)

I have done so...
I am the proud father of 2 girls. Girls rule - much better than boys.

They are both IT savvy. I brought both of them up to be strong, independent chicks with attitude. To be feminists without being embittered about the historical inequities. In the case of the older one, to understand that it's healthy and natural to have a sexual desire. In the case of the youngest, to see how most girls toys are intended to keep women in the role of mother and home-maker. She *hates* pink and has never really had a dolly.

But but but - if my efforts hadn't have succeeded, and they haven't been 100% effective, I would still have loved them as much as I do.

There's nothing wrong with being "girly" - I can be, I'm a big 6'2" bloke in his 40s - but there is everything wrong in being weak.

And that's what I've brought them up NOT to be. Not to be weak, not to see themselves as anything other than strong, clever, beautiful women.

And I love them so
( I_Was_Mordred, Thu 24 Apr 2008, 11:16, closed)

@CHCB
Probably not - although there might be a predisposition to some rather than others. I don't know what that predisposition might be, but there's a possibility that it's there.
( Enzyme is powered by sunlight, Thu 24 Apr 2008, 11:18, closed)

^yes
There may well be a possibility, but it seems that the social contribution is so very great that it has probably smothered it...
( crackhouseceilidhband Fuck off back to Mumsnet, Thu 24 Apr 2008, 11:19, closed)

@CHCB and Enzyme
This is a very interesting one. I take CHCB's point entirely about the inherent stereotypes - maths/engineering/science is quite definitely not "a man's job," and I have to say my research group does a good job of bucking that trend.

As for Enzyme's point about stuff being hard-wired, this reminds me of an article which suggested that men are usually more inclined to try and be witty/funny in a social context as it's subconsciously a way of drawing female attention to themselves, in a "look at my tail-feathers/watch me bang my chest" sort of display. (It's quite credible if you watch the way male behaviour changes around women.)

By analogy: are men more inclined to go into (a) manual jobs or (b) science/engineering jobs because they're naturally inclined - however unconsciously - to display their strength or intelligence respectively, and therefore their suitability as a mate?

Or do we just have more of a tendency to tinker with stuff since we can't do much hunter-gathering these days?
(LongJohnBaldry, Thu 24 Apr 2008, 11:25, closed)

^^ I love Horizon...
It's opened my eyes to many wonders out there. I even got into string theory for a while.

*edit* and it's true. We gave my nephew dolls and tea sets etc which he did play with but has lost interest in them for cars, football and the like.
( girlinthehole, Thu 24 Apr 2008, 11:25, closed)

QOTW in several on topic serious discussion threads shock!
It won't last, I tells ya.

On the subject of gender stereotyping, how is it that women are generally seen to be the homemakers, her place is in the kitchen blah blah blah (I DON'T subscribe to that btw), yet most TV chefs are men?

I would come up with a more enlightened reply, but frankly I've got a bit of a hangover and my thought processes are a bit jumbled this morning. Damn that red wine...
( Davros' Granddad a voice of calm reason in a world of spastics., Thu 24 Apr 2008, 11:26, closed)

I used to like Horizon...
...but I got increasingly fed up with it when they started to spend an hour repeating themselves and showing flashy-looking but entirely irrelevant clips to pad out fifty minutes of programming with what could have been said in ten minutes.

Oh, and Davros: good question - have a butcher's at my post above. I suspect the TV chef may be exhibiting the "look at my tail-feathers" syndrome.
(LongJohnBaldry, Thu 24 Apr 2008, 11:28, closed)

@Mordred
Aaaah, that's dead sweet. They sound like great kids


Hmmmm
*wonders how he can steal Mordreds children*

*wishes he didn't think out loud*

Bouncing back to Enzyme and halfy and the stupidity of the media, I remember watching some crap show on the beeb with Richard Hammond and his mrs discussing the MMR vacine, he went round a load of scientists and health workers and came back to his wife and was saying, there is no evidence out there that the MMR vaccine causes autism. And her response, yeah, I know, but there is anecdotal evidence, which is sort of evidence, so we're not getting our kids vaccinated.

I'm not looking to open a huge can of MMR worms here, the point was that people will believe what gets reported even if it's a barefaced lie. So when Boris Johnson tells London, I will make you safer from crime, people go, yes, we are in danger from crime, regardless of the fact that actual crime in london has dropped year on year.

Sorry, went into mayoral rant mode again. Apologies to non London dwellers, I believe some of you exist.
(Bazongaloid, Thu 24 Apr 2008, 11:29, closed)

its not just the media though
look at what the government has done in the last few years.

Couple of passionate dudes fly a plane into a building a few a long long way away and we get a couple thousand new laws, reduced freedom of speech and rights to protest.

Interesting, as 15-20 years ago when we were being bombed on a regular basis by the IRA the only things I remember was Gerry Adams voice not allowed to be broadcast and all the metal bins near public transport vanishing.
(Halfy By light alone, Thu 24 Apr 2008, 11:37, closed)

@al
Indeed - people expect too much of science. I'm not sre whether the MMR research was sound, but, even if it was, it wouldn't follow that the answer was certain. Good research can produce untrue results.

Something similar is true of the misuse of statistics: people cut, say, coffee from their diet because they've been told that it doubles the risk of, say, cancer, when what might actually be the case is that it doubles the risk of a certain cancer from nothing to practically nothing.

And don't get me stared on people who think that "detox" is meaningful and that they need to drink 8 glasses of water a day...
( Enzyme is powered by sunlight, Thu 24 Apr 2008, 11:39, closed)

@Halfy
I know - in nodding terms - the guy who used to provide Gerry Adams' "voice" for Newsnight. He's not in the least bit Irish. He was, though, the best Hamlet I think I've ever seen.
( Enzyme is powered by sunlight, Thu 24 Apr 2008, 11:40, closed)

^^ Enzyme
The correct term for "detox" is "moron refractory period".
( Cawl, Thu 24 Apr 2008, 11:41, closed)

@Davros' Granddad re: TV chefs
It's not just TV chefs who are predominantly male though, is it? Chefs in general. Women, remember, are cooks :)

Here's a checklist about racism, but altered to deal with sexism. It's interesting. (Please note, I did not write this, nor do I agree with all points, but it is interesting. It comes from here: colours.mahost.org/org/maleprivilege.html)


The Male Privilege Checklist

1. My odds of being hired for a job, when competing against female applicants, are probably skewed in my favor. The more prestigious the job, the larger the odds are skewed.

2. I can be confident that my co-workers won't think I got my job because of my sex - even though that might be true.

3. If I am never promoted, it's not because of my sex.

4. If I fail in my job or career, I can feel sure this won't be seen as a black mark against my entire sex's capabilities.

5. The odds of my encountering sexual harassment on the job are so low as to be negligible.

6. If I do the same task as a woman, and if the measurement is at all subjective, chances are people will think I did a better job.

7. If I'm a teen or adult, and if I can stay out of prison, my odds of being raped are so low as to be negligible.

8. I am not taught to fear walking alone after dark in average public spaces.

9. If I choose not to have children, my masculinity will not be called into question.

10. If I have children but do not provide primary care for them, my masculinity will not be called into question.

11. If I have children and provide primary care for them, I'll be praised for extraordinary parenting if I'm even marginally competent.

12. If I have children and pursue a career, no one will think I'm selfish for not staying at home.

13. If I seek political office, myrelationship with my children, or who I hire to take care of them, will probably not be scrutinized by the press.

14. Chances are my elected representatives are mostly people of my own sex. The more prestigious and powerful the elected position, the more likely this is to be true.

15. I can be somewhat sure that if I ask to see "the person in charge," I will face a person of my own sex. The higher-up in the
organization the person is, the surer I can be.

16. As a child, chances are I was encouraged to be more active and outgoing than my sisters.

17. As a child, I could choose from an almost infinite variety of children's media featuring positive, active, non-stereotyped heroes of
my own sex. I never had to look for it; male heroes were the default.

18. As a child, chances are I got more teacher attention than girls who raised their hands just as often.

19. If my day, week or year is going badly, I need not ask of each negative episode or situation whether or not it has sexist overtones.

20. I can turn on the television or glance at the front page of the newspaper and see people of my own sex widely represented, every day,
without exception.

21. If I'm careless with my financial affairs it won't be attributed to my sex.

22. If I'm careless with my driving it won't be attributed to my sex.

23. I can speak in public to a large group without putting my sex on trial.

24. If I have sex with a lot of people, it won't make me an object of contempt or derision.

25. There are value-neutral clothing choices available to me; it is possible for me to choose clothing that doesn't send any particular message to the world.

26. My wardrobe and grooming are relatively cheap and consume little time.

27. If I buy a new car, chances are I'll be offered a better price than a woman buying the same car.

28. If I'm not conventionally attractive, the disadvantages are relatively small and easy to ignore.

29. I can be loud with no fear of being called a shrew. I can be aggressive with no fear of being called a bitch.

30. I can ask for legal protection from violence that happens mostly to men without being seen as a selfish special interest, since that kind of violence is called "crime" and is a general social concern.
(Violence that happens mostly to women is usually called "domestic violence" or "acquaintance rape," and is seen as a special interest issue.)

31. I can be confident that the ordinary language of day-to-day existence will always include my sex. "All men are created equal…,"
mailman, chairman, freshman, he.

32. My ability to make important decisions and my capability in general will never be questioned depending on what time of the month
it is.

33. I will never be expected to change my name upon marriage or questioned if i don't change my name.

34. The decision to hire me will never be based on assumptions about whether or not I might choose to have a family sometime soon.

35. Every major religion in the world is led primarily by people of my own sex. Even God, in most major religions, is usually pictured as
being male.

36. Most major religions argue that I should be the head of my household, while my wife and children should be subservient to me.

37. If I have a wife or girlfriend, chances are we'll divide up household chores so that she does most of the labor, and in particular
the most repetitive and unrewarding tasks.

38. If I have children with a wife or girlfriend, chances are she'll do most of the childrearing, and in particular the most dirty,
repetitive and unrewarding parts of childrearing.

39. If I have children with a wife or girlfriend, and it turns out that one of us needs to make career sacrifices to raise the kids, chances are we'll both assume the career sacrificed should be hers.

40. Magazines, billboards, television, movies, pornography, and virtually all of media is filled with images of scantily-clad women
intended to appeal to me sexually. Such images of men exist, but are much rarer.

41. I am not expected to spend my entire life 20-40 pounds underweight.

42. If I am heterosexual, it's incredibly unlikely that I'll ever be beaten up by a spouse or lover.

43. I have the privilege of being unaware of my male privilege.
( crackhouseceilidhband Fuck off back to Mumsnet, Thu 24 Apr 2008, 11:44, closed)

detox
= workshy buggers who need to pee every 25 minutes due to having a 10 gallon water drum iv-d directly into the throat.
(Halfy By light alone, Thu 24 Apr 2008, 11:44, closed)

Horizon
has been dumbed down, along with many other television programmes.

Ever watched Scrapheap Challenge? It's a good bit of light entertainment with people making functional (sometimes) machines out of scrap. It has an American equivalent, made by the same people, called Junkyard Wars, which was also shown here.

Despite the fact it's essentially the same programme, the US version does many things differently. For one, they show a teaser shot of the final machines right at the beginning, and keep on doing so throughout. They also repeat several scenes after each ad break, just in case you weren't following what went on. And at the end, if there's a crash or an incident of any sort, they show innumerable repeats of it.

All of this really gets on my tits.

It's like we're not smart enough to follow what's going on without it being repeated a dozen times at every opportunity. And there's that little teaser bit to make sure you keep watching to the end.

Aaaaarrrggghhhh!
( K2k6 has a proper job these days, Thu 24 Apr 2008, 11:52, closed)

@CHCB
At least you're bucking the trend with point no. 35!
( K2k6 has a proper job these days, Thu 24 Apr 2008, 11:55, closed)

@K2k6
I agree that TV science seems to have been dumbed down in the past few years - too many graphics, too much music, too much reenactment. Fuck that. I want SCIENCE. f that means clever people talking at me, then fine. They're clever, see? (For that reason, Walden on Villains was great: half an hour of a man lecturing directly to a camera. Fabulous television.) I make an exception for the guy who made The Power of Nightmares, though. He's brilliant, even if I can't remember his name. Adam Curtis. That's it.

(In fact, the uselessness of science programmes was one of the reasons why I didn't replace my telly when it died a few years ago. They were pretty much all I watched anyway, and I realised that, if I was interested enough in a topic to watch the programme, the chances were that I already knew a lot more about it than would be shown on that programme. So I stopped.

(That, and University Challenge being too easy as well...)
( Enzyme is powered by sunlight, Thu 24 Apr 2008, 11:55, closed)

'Tis odd
There seems to be hard-wired preference for pink in female babies. Osoklet No 2 was probably dressed in blue/white/whatever when she was freshly laid. However, as soon as she was able to grab things she liked the look of, it's been pink all the way. She won't sleep without her (pink) comfort blanket.

This morning I had my left eardrum skewered with a red-hot needle (well, that's what it felt like) as I had dared to take the piece of chalk she had liberated off her (pink).

However, she also likes cars.

And pirates. Cap'n Liberace ARRRRRRrrrrrr!
(osok Rebel without a clue, Thu 24 Apr 2008, 11:58, closed)

@Enzyme
that and those twats on MTV wouldn't even know what Ribena Banana was, let alone play it.

*imagines in his head how Ribena Banana would sound if he knew what it was*

*imagines in his head how Ribena Banana would sound if it were played by Slayer*

*moshes in head*
(Bazongaloid, Thu 24 Apr 2008, 12:00, closed)

@osok
Okay, but that's a sample size of one. On those terms, the fact that I detest pink means that 50% of girls like pink.
( crackhouseceilidhband Fuck off back to Mumsnet, Thu 24 Apr 2008, 12:02, closed)

@Enzyme
don't start me on bad graphics.

(I did actually give a lecture once entitled "When graphics go bad: VR killed the TV star".)
( crackhouseceilidhband Fuck off back to Mumsnet, Thu 24 Apr 2008, 12:05, closed)

Meanwhile, in another part of town...
Look! Over there! A goat doing a sex on a monkey!

Please - I need to get some work done. Can we shift the debate to things I can ignore for a while?
( Enzyme is powered by sunlight, Thu 24 Apr 2008, 12:07, closed)

*shifts debate*

( Cawl, Thu 24 Apr 2008, 12:08, closed)

Kaol! That's amazing!
*adopts coat of arms*

/coat of arms
( crackhouseceilidhband Fuck off back to Mumsnet, Thu 24 Apr 2008, 12:10, closed)

If many people are involved in a discussion...
... does that make it a mass debate?


Mass debate. Geddit?

Massdebate. Sounds a bi... oh, bollocks.
( Enzyme is powered by sunlight, Thu 24 Apr 2008, 12:10, closed)

*I'm*
Amazing, dammit.
That's actually for Ms Bob Fossil, but I'm sure she won't mind.
( Cawl, Thu 24 Apr 2008, 12:11, closed)

Yes, very good Enzyme.
Have a gold goat star.
( crackhouseceilidhband Fuck off back to Mumsnet, Thu 24 Apr 2008, 12:12, closed)

As I said on another thread
is this going to be the official flag of the home of Frigstianity? We could call it Wankican City
(Bazongaloid, Thu 24 Apr 2008, 12:14, closed)

Prior art
Enzyme, I believe the 'mass debate' pun was used circa 1986 by Radio 4's Saturday night comedy programme Radio Active.

But well done for inserting it in this thread.
( K2k6 has a proper job these days, Thu 24 Apr 2008, 12:15, closed)

@K2k6
I suspected as much...
( Enzyme is powered by sunlight, Thu 24 Apr 2008, 12:18, closed)

@CHCB
Your list really upsets me...because what the fuck happened to feminism ?
I was brought up by a feminist, a Tory feminist (which was a bit weird) but nonetheless a feminist. I believe passionately in the equality of the sexes. But it seems like the men have "won".
Go into any club, and you'll see loads of mildly overweight blokes, not particularly well-dressed, ogling at women with boob jobs and everything on display, dressed basically like tarts.
That's progress ?
What *has* happened to feminism ? Whose fault is it things are as they are ?
Sadly, it's women's fault as much as men's. For buying "Heat" and subscribing to all that shit.
Will it ever change ?
( I_Was_Mordred, Thu 24 Apr 2008, 12:31, closed)

CHCB
Don't start getting all technical on me. It's true 'cos the Space Lizards said so.

Quack.
(osok Rebel without a clue, Thu 24 Apr 2008, 12:34, closed)

Mordred...
By "feminism", do you mean liberal, egalitarian feminism in the tradition of Wollstonecraft, or non-liberal, postmodern feminism in the tradition of, say, Irigaray, Kristeva and so on? Marxist feminism? Nietzschean/ Derridean? What about de Beauvoir?

It's a cheap shot - but there's no such thing as feminism. Instead, there's a range of feminisms, many of which are incompatible. What you're bemoning has little to do with feminism than with manners.
( Enzyme is powered by sunlight, Thu 24 Apr 2008, 12:37, closed)

^
Surfing the third-wave, me.
( crackhouseceilidhband Fuck off back to Mumsnet, Thu 24 Apr 2008, 12:38, closed)

Enyzme
I lack your level of education, having failed my Masters at Birmingham Uni...this coincided with the advent of all-day opening, but still, at least I have heard of most of those names you mentioned.
What I mean is the desire for equality - so more Mary W. I imagine.
And I don't think what I was describing was "manners". It's the viewpoint of one sex that they have to dress / behave in a manner which is basically demeaning NOT empowering to attract a male mate. Males who seem neither to embody the ethos of the "best" sides of masculinity, i.e. being responsible and self-sacrificing and hard-working, or the "metrosexual" i.e. sensitive, caring and well-groomed.
Instead, modern males are generally drunk, overweight louts, and modern women underdressed "prostitute-lites".

And this is progress ?
( I_Was_Mordred, Thu 24 Apr 2008, 12:44, closed)

Progress?
But to what? What you've described is people behaving how they want.

Talk of "empowerment" makes my head hurt. I really don't understand it - my suspicion is that it's meaningless drivel.

As for "best sides of" whatever... again, by what standard? You've smuggled in a lot of moralism here, but your post seems to boil down to "I've seen some stuff of which I disapprove." Wahey. Good for you. Tell me why you're correct to disapprove and you might convince me to see the world your way. At present, all I have is a description of your psychological landscape. And fairly moralistic bland it looks too.

Sorry. I'm stressed. I wouldn't normally rant like that.





Who'm I kidding? Of course I would.
( Enzyme is powered by sunlight, Thu 24 Apr 2008, 12:50, closed)

Enyzme
Yes, you're right in a way - but I don't think that the objectifying of women as sex objects, which is now worse in many ways than ever *and* hitting females younger and younger, is a "lifestyle choice". It's something women are pressurised into. My opinions may be bland, agreed, and it is personal observation, but as a father of girls I'm also mightily pissed off that this is the sort of world they are living in.
"Empowering" to me means being able to be who you want to, not having to become some sort of clone because otherwise your peer group won't accept you. And yes, it is possible to go to, for instance, dance events and see people more able to be themselves than having to fit into a stereotypical image. But that's the small minority. Most women loathe their bodies, because magazines like Heat love zooming in on body "deficiencies" and poking fun at people, almost always women, who don't look like Greek Gods.
Personally, I'd like to see the fuckers who write that magazine paraded naked after a heavy evening so we can laugh at their imperfections. But more realistically, I'd like to see the judging of women by the size of their breasts become a thing of the past.
( I_Was_Mordred, Thu 24 Apr 2008, 12:57, closed)

@Mordred
My worry about this is that it seems to presuppose that the body/ looks aren't important at all - and that's just not true. We respond to how people look, and I can't see any reason why we oughtn't. For sure, I hope that there's more to it than that - for my own sake - but criticising people for emphasising the physical seems to misfire for me.

I don't see the point of your claim about hitting girls and how that's relevant. If it's wrong to hit people, it's wrong irrespective of sex. I don't buy the claim that there's something especially wrong about hitting some people. (Nor do I buy the claim that physical violence is always wrong. I've seen enough fights in my time to realise that being female doesn't make a person demure. If someone's coming at me with a bottle, I'll try to get my punch in first. That seems reasonable enough.)
( Enzyme is powered by sunlight, Thu 24 Apr 2008, 13:02, closed)

@Enzyme
I think Mordreds use of "hitting" was not implying fights, but of advertising hitting kids younger.
(Bazongaloid, Thu 24 Apr 2008, 13:04, closed)

@al
The point stands, though. The question is one of the permissibility of hitting, not whom you're hitting.


And, yes, I do think that corporal punishment of children is, at times, justified. The very young won't respond to reason, on account of their being young. And I don't see that reason is all that morally different from violence anyway, for reasons we don't have to get into here. (Suffice it to say that I'm slowly working on a number of papers on this theme.) Whether that's the better for violence, or the worse for reason, I leave open. I don't care.
( Enzyme is powered by sunlight, Thu 24 Apr 2008, 13:07, closed)