If you need the job more than they need you, then put up with whatever bollocks they come up with.
Then send minutes of the meeting back to those who've called it and asking them to confirm if the notes you made are indeed what they mean, and then reiterate where the confusion arose.

If they ever go down the disciplinary route, you'll have a document that'll be agreed with them and will explain your position.
( JeffTheDogFucker Can you dig it?, Mon 18 Jul 2011, 19:19, 1 reply, 15 years ago)

They think they can discipline me for 'poor timekeeping' amongst other things.
While I know that there is no statutory basis for what can and can't be used, I believe that they are being unreasonable. I just need to know if what I think is a reasonable, legally sound basis for dismissing that part of the allegations is indeed reasonable and legally sound.
(dozers, do fuck off ur a nob m8, Mon 18 Jul 2011, 19:22, Reply)

I hardly think that 20 minutes in 80 days
is poor timekeeping. Tell them to get fucked*


*this does not constitute actual legal advice
(berk, Mon 18 Jul 2011, 19:26, Reply)

what does the law around agreements and contractual expectations say?

(dozers, do fuck off ur a nob m8, Mon 18 Jul 2011, 19:27, Reply)

Try
www.google.com
( JeffTheDogFucker Can you dig it?, Mon 18 Jul 2011, 19:28, Reply)

Neither does it constitute the Pulp video you were going to send me!

( JeffTheDogFucker Can you dig it?, Mon 18 Jul 2011, 19:27, Reply)

The danger of asked the great-unqualified is that you'll get opinions, not fact.
It wouldn't be unreasonable to ask if other people who've also been in late - whilst working on the assumption that they had flexitime - had also been subjected to the same process, and maybe ask for the number of people who've been hauled in for it.

But if they've got other things they might want to discuss with you, is it worth worrying too much about the time keeping issue, as it sounds like you'll be better off working elsewhere if these people are being cunts.
( JeffTheDogFucker Can you dig it?, Mon 18 Jul 2011, 19:27, Reply)

They are being massive cunts.
But as far as I know, noone else has had their flexitime removed. My whole beef is around whether or not they should have notified me in writing that the benefit had been removed. All they ever did was ask me to work 9 to 5. This then became 'removal of flex' further down the line, with nothing in writing.
(dozers, do fuck off ur a nob m8, Mon 18 Jul 2011, 19:29, Reply)

Who are you meeting with?
If it is just your boss, then suggest that it might be wise to have HR in the meeting.
( JeffTheDogFucker Can you dig it?, Mon 18 Jul 2011, 19:30, Reply)

They don't have HR.
They outsource it.
(dozers, do fuck off ur a nob m8, Mon 18 Jul 2011, 19:34, Reply)

These people have a free trial page
www.rhhr.com/2/employee-entitled-have-legal-representation-disciplinary-hearing

And other sites suggest you can request that a HR professional is at the meeting.
( JeffTheDogFucker Can you dig it?, Mon 18 Jul 2011, 19:36, Reply)

I don't think there is a legal requirement to have an HR professional present.

(dozers, do fuck off ur a nob m8, Mon 18 Jul 2011, 19:38, Reply)

I think he's saying you might want an independant witness
but then, what the fuck do I know about the law, I'm on the internet at 7.40pm instead of talking to people that actually exist.
(Bazongaloid, Mon 18 Jul 2011, 19:40, Reply)

Everything you need to know is here
www.londonlawcentre.org.uk/pdfs/CLLC%20Disciplinary-3.pdf
( JeffTheDogFucker Can you dig it?, Mon 18 Jul 2011, 19:40, Reply)

You should really consult your employee handbook which you are contractually obliged to uphold, which will no doubt detail this incident as a cause for a disciplinary
That's why they are going down this particular route. If indeed they are based on the facts presented it's an easy route to working you out the door. If I valued an employee I wouldn't be disciplining them for such a relatively minor issue. They clearly hate you. Time to get another job whilst receiving a suitable reference is very much at hand. Failing which go on the sick for six months and blub to a tribunal re constructive dismissal.
( Light In Chains maker of the ikea sofa, Mon 18 Jul 2011, 19:32, Reply)

It looks as though dingodrum fucked off.

(Bazongaloid, Mon 18 Jul 2011, 19:35, Reply)

www.b3ta.com/questions/roadtrip/post1283132
(Bazongaloid, Mon 18 Jul 2011, 19:35, Reply)

Just goes to show that if if ask someone nicely to fuck off that's what they'll do
At least Dingodrum has manners
( Light In Chains maker of the ikea sofa, Mon 18 Jul 2011, 19:38, Reply)

It appeared he didn't quite understand you the first time
so I made sure to reiterate it.
(Bazongaloid, Mon 18 Jul 2011, 19:39, Reply)

It's totally like the b3ta family pulling together

( Light In Chains maker of the ikea sofa, Mon 18 Jul 2011, 19:45, Reply)

The handbook states that 'persistent lateness' is a disciplinary offence.
I don't agree that three instances, amounting to 20 minutes, over a period of 16 weeks is 'persistent lateness'. There is also the whole thing about flexitime- if I could reasonably expect that they need to remove this in writing, then I could argue that I have stuck to the spirit of the verbal agreement and they therefore can't include it in the disciplinary process.
(dozers, do fuck off ur a nob m8, Mon 18 Jul 2011, 19:36, Reply)

It may be reasonable for three instances over 16 weeks to be deemed persistent, certainly over two is very much 'persistent' for the purposes of a disciplinary.
Usually it would be by reference to a monthly period, and it would be an expectation that your manager would have informed you that your lateness would be a disciplinary matter. Again they have not afforded this to you as they dislike you.
( Light In Chains maker of the ikea sofa, Mon 18 Jul 2011, 19:43, Reply)

so, once a month wouldn't be deemed to be persistent? But three times in a month would?
This is over a period of sixteen weeks.

and anyway, I believe they needed to remove flex in writing, rather than ask me to work 9-5 verbally.
(dozers, do fuck off ur a nob m8, Mon 18 Jul 2011, 19:45, Reply)

If some cunts late for me in excess of one time over a month then I discipline them, but then that's explained in the staff handbook
Which is why you should really have reference to it prior to the meeting. For the avoidance of doubt any correspondence from you employer should have made specific reference to the code of the business for lateness to leave no wiggle room on your behalf. You have agreed to the terms of the handbook, and it should really define what constitutes lateness.
( Light In Chains maker of the ikea sofa, Mon 18 Jul 2011, 19:50, Reply)

lateness is not defined
But the start time for those not on flex is 9 am. Hence me needing to know if they should have notified me of the removal of flex in writing.
(dozers, do fuck off ur a nob m8, Mon 18 Jul 2011, 19:52, Reply)

If your contract affords you flexi time, which is now no longer the case by a unilateral decision of your employer then you should really have been informed of the same by your employer in writing
Oral variations aint worth shit. In any event you need to have reference to the express terms of your contract, and the notification procedures (if any) detailed therein
( Light In Chains maker of the ikea sofa, Mon 18 Jul 2011, 19:58, Reply)

my contract states that flexitime can be removed. It doesn't state that this will be notified in writing, just that it can be removed.

(dozers, do fuck off ur a nob m8, Mon 18 Jul 2011, 20:02, Reply)

But if flexitime HAS been removed, it wouldn't be unresonable to expect to be issued with a new handbook that says 'you don't have flexitime'

( JeffTheDogFucker Can you dig it?, Mon 18 Jul 2011, 20:03, Reply)

Not a new handbook, a variation to the original contract of employment, via a sideletter, would suffice

( Light In Chains maker of the ikea sofa, Mon 18 Jul 2011, 20:05, Reply)

I don't get how flexi time can be 'removed' without the consent of an employee, as it's an important head of terms of employment, in that it's worth something to the employee
WE JUST DON@T HAVE THE INFORMATION HERE
( Light In Chains maker of the ikea sofa, Mon 18 Jul 2011, 20:06, Reply)

Ask away Rory.

(dozers, do fuck off ur a nob m8, Mon 18 Jul 2011, 20:07, Reply)

Well you've done so below, confirmation that your employer may rescind your entitlement to flexitime
To do so on a whim is far from equitable, and would really require a notification procedure, and in writing. To vary a written contract orally is just not going to be the case. Confirmation of the same should be sought, if this has not been adhered to then you've never come off flexi, innit.
( Light In Chains maker of the ikea sofa, Mon 18 Jul 2011, 20:13, Reply)

+ but they still don't like you, all the same.

( JeffTheDogFucker Can you dig it?, Mon 18 Jul 2011, 20:15, Reply)

Thank you Rory.
Is there caselaw I can quote? I know that there are no statutory procedures in place for disciplinary procedures, just guidelines, so if I respond to the lateness thing with the above rebuttal, and they check it with an HR professional, will it stand up?
(dozers, do fuck off ur a nob m8, Mon 18 Jul 2011, 20:21, Reply)

Your ears should be burning as you've clearly been the subject of a number of 'chats' and if they they know what they're doing the matter should have gone before their employers liability solicitors
As to it standing up, of course it will, if you really have received no notification of the removal of your flexi time entitlement, and as you've stated your contract rightly provides for that notification (the method of which is to be determined). On the face of it you can agrue that the flexi still stands. It's up to them to unilaterally rescind in the correct manner.

I never had a lot to do with employment law as a solicitor, but most of this stuff is common sense. However the writings very much on the wall for you, reading between the lines. Time to jump ship. If you are seeking to take this to an employment tribunal once it plays out you need to have a good cry in front of colleagues on a daily basis blubbing about bullying and so on and so forth. A script for citalopram from the docs will add credence to. You gotta love a Vento 'gaylord' uplift in damages.
( Light In Chains maker of the ikea sofa, Mon 18 Jul 2011, 20:45, Reply)

I know they hate me.
Fuck knows why. It's a disciplinary hearing at the moment, so I don't think they will have referred it to their solicitor.

The only notification I've had is being told verbally that it's been removed. Nothing in writing, and my manager and her boss always state that as it's just a benefit that can be removed (as stated in the contract- it just says they can remove it, it doesn't mention any notification procedure). I assumed that that was valid, but was thinking about it and realised that the written trail only has countersigned confirmation that I can use flexi. I verbally agreed to 'work 9 to 5' but that is as far as it goes.

There is other stuff too, but if I give them a plan to improve accuracy etc and ask for codified expectations over a period of time, then that should be enough for me to be seen to be playing ball, yes? Apart from informing them of the finer points of contract law.
(dozers, do fuck off ur a nob m8, Mon 18 Jul 2011, 20:55, Reply)

Indeed.
The contract states that you only get flexitime after completing your probationary period. I am permanent so my probationary period is over. It then states that flexitime is removable, but doesn't set out the method for doing so. I have never had it confirmed in writing, only verbally.
(dozers, do fuck off ur a nob m8, Mon 18 Jul 2011, 20:06, Reply)