Hi
I require legal advice regarding implied terms and verbal agreements.

I need to know the following:

As a permanent employee, I have a reasonable expectation to enjoy flexitime. The contract states that permanent employees have flexi as a benefit, but it can be removed. As I have a signed letter stating that my employment is permanent, should flexitime (though stated as a removable benefit) require written confirmation of its removal, or can I successfully argue that as I verbally agreed to work 9-5 days (which is not the same as removal of flex, it is a verbal agreement), and have been in work for 9 with three exceptions (of 10, 10 and 5 minutes) for the past 16 weeks, my employer cannot subject me to any kind of disciplinary measures as a result, unless they formally remove the flexi benefit in writing.

I believe that as an implied term of the contract it can only be removed or used as the basis for any disciplinary procedure, it requires countersigned agreement between me and my employer.

I have other beefs, but I have thought through the above and it seems quite sound. I can also argue that verbal agreements are only legally binding in Scotland, so by sticking to the spirit of the agreement I have done no wrong.

Any takers?
(dozers, do fuck off ur a nob m8, Mon 18 Jul 2011, 18:44, 87 replies, latest was 15 years ago)

O_o
*facepalms*
( djtrialprice, Mon 18 Jul 2011, 18:47, Reply)

what?
I am being disciplined for spurious reasons. My bosses are not expecting me to put up any sort of spirited defence.

I think I can argue the above, I just need to know if I am right or not.

The spurious reasons include asking to leave 10 minutes early. I was refused and so stuck around until 5 pm. Spurious.
(dozers, do fuck off ur a nob m8, Mon 18 Jul 2011, 18:50, Reply)

Could they argue that there are question marks over the quality of the work you produce?

( JeffTheDogFucker Can you dig it?, Mon 18 Jul 2011, 18:51, Reply)

Yes, but I have concerns over their measuring.
It is open to abuse and favouritism. It's a whole different set of arguments. At the moment I just need to knock them down on the charges sheet. And if I have a strong legal basis to do so, and they insist on their version of things then I have a stronger case should it get to a tribunal.

And also to satisfy my own curiosity vis a vis the logic of my legal thinking.
(dozers, do fuck off ur a nob m8, Mon 18 Jul 2011, 18:55, Reply)

No, I agree with you dude
Sounds like the man is trying to fuck you over. But I just looooooove to facepalm.
( djtrialprice, Mon 18 Jul 2011, 19:33, Reply)

Fortunate, that...

( Roota zweeeeeoooooowm, Mon 18 Jul 2011, 21:20, Reply)

Roota, you've lost, he wants to marry me now.

(Bazongaloid, Mon 18 Jul 2011, 21:26, Reply)

I'd imagine
You get the same benefits as other people in a similar role at a similar grade.

That would be my guess.
( JeffTheDogFucker Can you dig it?, Mon 18 Jul 2011, 18:48, Reply)

I don't want guesses.
It's the whole contractual thing that I need an answer to. When the 9-5 thing was raised, they said 'we want you to work 9-5'. That is demonstrably not the same as formal removal of flex time.

The contract states that flexitime is removable at manager's discretion, but I need to know if it should have been done in writing. Because it has never been outlined in writing.

That's pretty much what it comes down to.
(dozers, do fuck off ur a nob m8, Mon 18 Jul 2011, 18:52, Reply)

citizens advice, then

( Citizen Cavy Admires your passion for conformity, Mon 18 Jul 2011, 18:55, Reply)

No time. I need to give them what I am assuming is a reasonable basis for asking for things in writing.
Because the timekeeping part of the process is just bullshit.
(dozers, do fuck off ur a nob m8, Mon 18 Jul 2011, 18:57, Reply)

Gotcha.
www.citizensadvice.org.uk/getadvice.htm
( JeffTheDogFucker Can you dig it?, Mon 18 Jul 2011, 18:57, Reply)

If you need the job more than they need you, then put up with whatever bollocks they come up with.
Then send minutes of the meeting back to those who've called it and asking them to confirm if the notes you made are indeed what they mean, and then reiterate where the confusion arose.

If they ever go down the disciplinary route, you'll have a document that'll be agreed with them and will explain your position.
( JeffTheDogFucker Can you dig it?, Mon 18 Jul 2011, 19:19, Reply)

They think they can discipline me for 'poor timekeeping' amongst other things.
While I know that there is no statutory basis for what can and can't be used, I believe that they are being unreasonable. I just need to know if what I think is a reasonable, legally sound basis for dismissing that part of the allegations is indeed reasonable and legally sound.
(dozers, do fuck off ur a nob m8, Mon 18 Jul 2011, 19:22, Reply)

I hardly think that 20 minutes in 80 days
is poor timekeeping. Tell them to get fucked*


*this does not constitute actual legal advice
(berk, Mon 18 Jul 2011, 19:26, Reply)

what does the law around agreements and contractual expectations say?

(dozers, do fuck off ur a nob m8, Mon 18 Jul 2011, 19:27, Reply)

Try
www.google.com
( JeffTheDogFucker Can you dig it?, Mon 18 Jul 2011, 19:28, Reply)

Neither does it constitute the Pulp video you were going to send me!

( JeffTheDogFucker Can you dig it?, Mon 18 Jul 2011, 19:27, Reply)

The danger of asked the great-unqualified is that you'll get opinions, not fact.
It wouldn't be unreasonable to ask if other people who've also been in late - whilst working on the assumption that they had flexitime - had also been subjected to the same process, and maybe ask for the number of people who've been hauled in for it.

But if they've got other things they might want to discuss with you, is it worth worrying too much about the time keeping issue, as it sounds like you'll be better off working elsewhere if these people are being cunts.
( JeffTheDogFucker Can you dig it?, Mon 18 Jul 2011, 19:27, Reply)

They are being massive cunts.
But as far as I know, noone else has had their flexitime removed. My whole beef is around whether or not they should have notified me in writing that the benefit had been removed. All they ever did was ask me to work 9 to 5. This then became 'removal of flex' further down the line, with nothing in writing.
(dozers, do fuck off ur a nob m8, Mon 18 Jul 2011, 19:29, Reply)

Who are you meeting with?
If it is just your boss, then suggest that it might be wise to have HR in the meeting.
( JeffTheDogFucker Can you dig it?, Mon 18 Jul 2011, 19:30, Reply)

They don't have HR.
They outsource it.
(dozers, do fuck off ur a nob m8, Mon 18 Jul 2011, 19:34, Reply)

These people have a free trial page
www.rhhr.com/2/employee-entitled-have-legal-representation-disciplinary-hearing

And other sites suggest you can request that a HR professional is at the meeting.
( JeffTheDogFucker Can you dig it?, Mon 18 Jul 2011, 19:36, Reply)

I don't think there is a legal requirement to have an HR professional present.

(dozers, do fuck off ur a nob m8, Mon 18 Jul 2011, 19:38, Reply)

I think he's saying you might want an independant witness
but then, what the fuck do I know about the law, I'm on the internet at 7.40pm instead of talking to people that actually exist.
(Bazongaloid, Mon 18 Jul 2011, 19:40, Reply)

Everything you need to know is here
www.londonlawcentre.org.uk/pdfs/CLLC%20Disciplinary-3.pdf
( JeffTheDogFucker Can you dig it?, Mon 18 Jul 2011, 19:40, Reply)

You should really consult your employee handbook which you are contractually obliged to uphold, which will no doubt detail this incident as a cause for a disciplinary
That's why they are going down this particular route. If indeed they are based on the facts presented it's an easy route to working you out the door. If I valued an employee I wouldn't be disciplining them for such a relatively minor issue. They clearly hate you. Time to get another job whilst receiving a suitable reference is very much at hand. Failing which go on the sick for six months and blub to a tribunal re constructive dismissal.
( Light In Chains maker of the ikea sofa, Mon 18 Jul 2011, 19:32, Reply)

It looks as though dingodrum fucked off.

(Bazongaloid, Mon 18 Jul 2011, 19:35, Reply)

www.b3ta.com/questions/roadtrip/post1283132
(Bazongaloid, Mon 18 Jul 2011, 19:35, Reply)

Just goes to show that if if ask someone nicely to fuck off that's what they'll do
At least Dingodrum has manners
( Light In Chains maker of the ikea sofa, Mon 18 Jul 2011, 19:38, Reply)

It appeared he didn't quite understand you the first time
so I made sure to reiterate it.
(Bazongaloid, Mon 18 Jul 2011, 19:39, Reply)

It's totally like the b3ta family pulling together

( Light In Chains maker of the ikea sofa, Mon 18 Jul 2011, 19:45, Reply)

The handbook states that 'persistent lateness' is a disciplinary offence.
I don't agree that three instances, amounting to 20 minutes, over a period of 16 weeks is 'persistent lateness'. There is also the whole thing about flexitime- if I could reasonably expect that they need to remove this in writing, then I could argue that I have stuck to the spirit of the verbal agreement and they therefore can't include it in the disciplinary process.
(dozers, do fuck off ur a nob m8, Mon 18 Jul 2011, 19:36, Reply)

It may be reasonable for three instances over 16 weeks to be deemed persistent, certainly over two is very much 'persistent' for the purposes of a disciplinary.
Usually it would be by reference to a monthly period, and it would be an expectation that your manager would have informed you that your lateness would be a disciplinary matter. Again they have not afforded this to you as they dislike you.
( Light In Chains maker of the ikea sofa, Mon 18 Jul 2011, 19:43, Reply)

so, once a month wouldn't be deemed to be persistent? But three times in a month would?
This is over a period of sixteen weeks.

and anyway, I believe they needed to remove flex in writing, rather than ask me to work 9-5 verbally.
(dozers, do fuck off ur a nob m8, Mon 18 Jul 2011, 19:45, Reply)

If some cunts late for me in excess of one time over a month then I discipline them, but then that's explained in the staff handbook
Which is why you should really have reference to it prior to the meeting. For the avoidance of doubt any correspondence from you employer should have made specific reference to the code of the business for lateness to leave no wiggle room on your behalf. You have agreed to the terms of the handbook, and it should really define what constitutes lateness.
( Light In Chains maker of the ikea sofa, Mon 18 Jul 2011, 19:50, Reply)

lateness is not defined
But the start time for those not on flex is 9 am. Hence me needing to know if they should have notified me of the removal of flex in writing.
(dozers, do fuck off ur a nob m8, Mon 18 Jul 2011, 19:52, Reply)

If your contract affords you flexi time, which is now no longer the case by a unilateral decision of your employer then you should really have been informed of the same by your employer in writing
Oral variations aint worth shit. In any event you need to have reference to the express terms of your contract, and the notification procedures (if any) detailed therein
( Light In Chains maker of the ikea sofa, Mon 18 Jul 2011, 19:58, Reply)

my contract states that flexitime can be removed. It doesn't state that this will be notified in writing, just that it can be removed.

(dozers, do fuck off ur a nob m8, Mon 18 Jul 2011, 20:02, Reply)

But if flexitime HAS been removed, it wouldn't be unresonable to expect to be issued with a new handbook that says 'you don't have flexitime'

( JeffTheDogFucker Can you dig it?, Mon 18 Jul 2011, 20:03, Reply)

Not a new handbook, a variation to the original contract of employment, via a sideletter, would suffice

( Light In Chains maker of the ikea sofa, Mon 18 Jul 2011, 20:05, Reply)

I don't get how flexi time can be 'removed' without the consent of an employee, as it's an important head of terms of employment, in that it's worth something to the employee
WE JUST DON@T HAVE THE INFORMATION HERE
( Light In Chains maker of the ikea sofa, Mon 18 Jul 2011, 20:06, Reply)

Ask away Rory.

(dozers, do fuck off ur a nob m8, Mon 18 Jul 2011, 20:07, Reply)

Well you've done so below, confirmation that your employer may rescind your entitlement to flexitime
To do so on a whim is far from equitable, and would really require a notification procedure, and in writing. To vary a written contract orally is just not going to be the case. Confirmation of the same should be sought, if this has not been adhered to then you've never come off flexi, innit.
( Light In Chains maker of the ikea sofa, Mon 18 Jul 2011, 20:13, Reply)

+ but they still don't like you, all the same.

( JeffTheDogFucker Can you dig it?, Mon 18 Jul 2011, 20:15, Reply)

Thank you Rory.
Is there caselaw I can quote? I know that there are no statutory procedures in place for disciplinary procedures, just guidelines, so if I respond to the lateness thing with the above rebuttal, and they check it with an HR professional, will it stand up?
(dozers, do fuck off ur a nob m8, Mon 18 Jul 2011, 20:21, Reply)

Your ears should be burning as you've clearly been the subject of a number of 'chats' and if they they know what they're doing the matter should have gone before their employers liability solicitors
As to it standing up, of course it will, if you really have received no notification of the removal of your flexi time entitlement, and as you've stated your contract rightly provides for that notification (the method of which is to be determined). On the face of it you can agrue that the flexi still stands. It's up to them to unilaterally rescind in the correct manner.

I never had a lot to do with employment law as a solicitor, but most of this stuff is common sense. However the writings very much on the wall for you, reading between the lines. Time to jump ship. If you are seeking to take this to an employment tribunal once it plays out you need to have a good cry in front of colleagues on a daily basis blubbing about bullying and so on and so forth. A script for citalopram from the docs will add credence to. You gotta love a Vento 'gaylord' uplift in damages.
( Light In Chains maker of the ikea sofa, Mon 18 Jul 2011, 20:45, Reply)

I know they hate me.
Fuck knows why. It's a disciplinary hearing at the moment, so I don't think they will have referred it to their solicitor.

The only notification I've had is being told verbally that it's been removed. Nothing in writing, and my manager and her boss always state that as it's just a benefit that can be removed (as stated in the contract- it just says they can remove it, it doesn't mention any notification procedure). I assumed that that was valid, but was thinking about it and realised that the written trail only has countersigned confirmation that I can use flexi. I verbally agreed to 'work 9 to 5' but that is as far as it goes.

There is other stuff too, but if I give them a plan to improve accuracy etc and ask for codified expectations over a period of time, then that should be enough for me to be seen to be playing ball, yes? Apart from informing them of the finer points of contract law.
(dozers, do fuck off ur a nob m8, Mon 18 Jul 2011, 20:55, Reply)

Indeed.
The contract states that you only get flexitime after completing your probationary period. I am permanent so my probationary period is over. It then states that flexitime is removable, but doesn't set out the method for doing so. I have never had it confirmed in writing, only verbally.
(dozers, do fuck off ur a nob m8, Mon 18 Jul 2011, 20:06, Reply)

I think your main problem
is asking for quite serious legal advice on a forum filled with people so boring that they have been known to grow vegetables, and so dull that they have been known to talk about how HOT their NEW MAN is.
(Bazongaloid, Mon 18 Jul 2011, 19:29, Reply)

I really am missing something today, aren't I?

( b3th Not shit. Not mod., Mon 18 Jul 2011, 19:35, Reply)

Are you ignoring Rachelswipe?

(Bazongaloid, Mon 18 Jul 2011, 19:39, Reply)

No
but I seem to have missed another barney. Can you two not play nicely together?
( b3th Not shit. Not mod., Mon 18 Jul 2011, 19:53, Reply)

I think they deserve their own tv show

( Amberl was stripey and dominated Europe, Mon 18 Jul 2011, 20:07, Reply)

^this
I love you Algernon. We should, like, totally get married.
( djtrialprice, Mon 18 Jul 2011, 19:36, Reply)

But you'll have to change your name to Ernest first

( djtrialprice, Mon 18 Jul 2011, 19:37, Reply)

I can do that
if that's what it takes.
(Bazongaloid, Mon 18 Jul 2011, 19:39, Reply)

YEAH!
I'm so glad you've finally decided to ditch that mental scouse bit you've been hanging around with recently.

We should buy a house together next door to DiT and Flim Flam and adobt babies.
(Bazongaloid, Mon 18 Jul 2011, 19:38, Reply)

why not adopt them like normal people?

( Amberl was stripey and dominated Europe, Mon 18 Jul 2011, 19:44, Reply)

What have you got against gay adoption?
TORY!
(also, how are things ambers?)
( djtrialprice, Mon 18 Jul 2011, 19:45, Reply)

She's got nothing against adoption, she just hates adobtion.
It's understandable.
(Bazongaloid, Mon 18 Jul 2011, 19:46, Reply)

The process of turning babies into unwieldy programs

( Amberl was stripey and dominated Europe, Mon 18 Jul 2011, 19:47, Reply)

You'll have one for a year or so
but your new one won't be compatible with it.
(Bazongaloid, Mon 18 Jul 2011, 19:47, Reply)

the difference is
if you put one in the recycling bin you'll be arrested for it, so it's got more in common with cats in that respect I guess
( Amberl was stripey and dominated Europe, Mon 18 Jul 2011, 19:48, Reply)

you're on a roll today

( Lisette von Falcon, Mon 18 Jul 2011, 19:50, Reply)

Pfft I'm not Bella
/resurrection of old old meme
( Amberl was stripey and dominated Europe, Mon 18 Jul 2011, 19:51, Reply)

I'm an avid follower of her blog, it's internet gold

( Light In Chains maker of the ikea sofa, Mon 18 Jul 2011, 19:58, Reply)

I've lost the link
and I don't think it's my sort of thing anyway
( Amberl was stripey and dominated Europe, Mon 18 Jul 2011, 19:59, Reply)

It confirms my suspicions that some people really do have far too much time on their hands
fortyshadesofgrey.blogspot.com/
( Light In Chains maker of the ikea sofa, Mon 18 Jul 2011, 20:03, Reply)

You have to admire her spunk.

( girlinthehole, Mon 18 Jul 2011, 20:28, Reply)

Are you claiming Bella is a furiously masturbating man?
You terrible bully!
( Amberl was stripey and dominated Europe, Mon 18 Jul 2011, 20:29, Reply)

*shames*

( girlinthehole, Mon 18 Jul 2011, 20:30, Reply)

*Waves*

( JeffTheDogFucker Can you dig it?, Mon 18 Jul 2011, 20:30, Reply)

Long time no speaky petal.
*waves*
( girlinthehole, Mon 18 Jul 2011, 20:31, Reply)

I've been busy honey.
Did you have a nice weekend?
( JeffTheDogFucker Can you dig it?, Mon 18 Jul 2011, 20:36, Reply)

I did, yes.
Went to London to see a friend : )
( girlinthehole, Mon 18 Jul 2011, 20:41, Reply)

:( not invited
GUTTED
( Light In Chains maker of the ikea sofa, Mon 18 Jul 2011, 20:46, Reply)

We can take it in turns to "go next door to see Flim Flam"
Massively impotent apparently.
( djtrialprice, Mon 18 Jul 2011, 19:44, Reply)

They'll have a big group of kids
who all either look like jesus or a large fat man.
(Bazongaloid, Mon 18 Jul 2011, 19:45, Reply)

that's the dream, right there

( Vipros. clever got me this far, then tricky got me in, Mon 18 Jul 2011, 19:49, Reply)

Hell yeah!

( djtrialprice, Mon 18 Jul 2011, 19:51, Reply)

We can say stuff like this because they don't go on b3ta anymore
I'm just imaging the icy Danish stare he'd give though.
( djtrialprice, Mon 18 Jul 2011, 19:51, Reply)

The way he makes you feel like you're made of bacon.

(Bazongaloid, Mon 18 Jul 2011, 19:54, Reply)

plastic packed and rubber stamped?

( Amberl was stripey and dominated Europe, Mon 18 Jul 2011, 19:56, Reply)

Contact ACAS?
www.acas.org.uk/

*goes back to growing vegetables*
( crackhouseceilidhband Fuck off back to Mumsnet, Mon 18 Jul 2011, 19:59, Reply)

*Makes flid joke*

( JeffTheDogFucker Can you dig it?, Mon 18 Jul 2011, 20:15, Reply)

I'd tell them to go do one, I wouldn't work under those conditions.
I say that, when I worked in the cab office they tried to fine me an hour's wages for every 5 minutes late I was. I saw them do it to someone else, I wish they did that to me, I would have gone straight to the council and dished up all the dirt on the fact that they paid less than min wage, never gave sick/holiday time. It came close at one point and I said to the guy "You got one chance to change your mind before I walk out of here", when they really needed me.
( G/PP 💩💩💩💩💩&#128, Mon 18 Jul 2011, 22:39, Reply)