Gordon Brown is one of the few decent men in politics just now.
I hear a lot of kiddies plan to vote Liberal 'for a change of government' - mostly they have not voted before. If that is correct there could be a whole lot of New Votes about which will cock up any predictions.
Tories will always shaft you: Labour might not. It's that simple.

Edit: and buggar it, I am too busy to really get up on the soapbox today. So apologies for not being able to run with this thread.
( Larry Vest One day at a time, sweet Jesus, FFS., Wed 21 Apr 2010, 12:50, 2 replies, latest was 16 years ago)

what?
Gordon Brown is not a decent man. He is a flesh-waste. And as for Tories always screwing you, what has Labour done to us in the last few years? Messed us up royally. When history is written it will not deal kindly with Tony Blair and Gordon Brown
( Amberl was stripey and dominated Europe, Wed 21 Apr 2010, 12:52, Reply)

Remember a vote for the Conservatives is a vote for Thatcher.
The tories will never change, it isn't in their interest to do so. Thatcher screwed the country and no-one will ever put that right now.
(porkylips looks better as the sun goes down., Wed 21 Apr 2010, 12:56, Reply)

no offence
but that is ridiculous. A vote for the Conservatives is a vote for Thatcher? By that reasoning we should never vote for Labour again- a vote for Labour is a vote for Tony Blair. The Tories generally fix economic problems, and I like their manifesto especially in education. Labour are fuckers through and through.
( Amberl was stripey and dominated Europe, Wed 21 Apr 2010, 12:59, Reply)

It's not as ridiculous as you think.
The underlying principles of modern conservatism have not changed in the way labour has (not for the better I might add). A vote for labour is not a vote for Blair, the same way as a vote for the libs is not a vote for Jeremy Thorpe. In my view the conservatives are the only party who cannot afford to change due to their vested interest in the financial status quo. The other parties can and will change.
(porkylips looks better as the sun goes down., Wed 21 Apr 2010, 13:03, Reply)

you mean a government
like Labour that has financially fucked the economy needs to change? Damn right they do. Modern conservatism has changed. It cares about people more than Labour does. Individual people, not some mealy-mouthed socialism that Gordon Brown has wet dreams about and will never implement.
( Amberl was stripey and dominated Europe, Wed 21 Apr 2010, 13:06, Reply)

Bankers fucked the country. Not Brown.
And you know it.
( Larry Vest One day at a time, sweet Jesus, FFS., Wed 21 Apr 2010, 13:09, Reply)

LoL.
Just wait. The tories never reveal their true colours until they are in power. Then all bets are off and it's open trough time. The tories only care about individual people of the right type. The rest are tax fodder. To my mind labour are currently shite because they have forgotten their roots and what they are supposed to stand for.
(porkylips looks better as the sun goes down., Wed 21 Apr 2010, 13:10, Reply)

Wow
You genuinely don't think the last few years have happened do you? Labour are shit, they've fucked the entire country up. What they've done is worse than Thatcher in most respects. Even setting the economy aside (which is not solely the bankers fault) let's look at their trackrecord in education, health, and most of all foreign policy. Iraq anyone?
( Amberl was stripey and dominated Europe, Wed 21 Apr 2010, 13:13, Reply)

Well I'm looking.
Education - what I see locally are six school all with new buildings and fully staffed. And only one of them lost their playing fields in the last Tory rule luckily.
NHS - two massive shiny new hospitals for me to choose from.
Iraq - oh, wait, that was American foreign policy. Which we were tied into to pay back Maggie's Falklands fun. America has a rather rightist capitalist government if I recall.
( Larry Vest One day at a time, sweet Jesus, FFS., Wed 21 Apr 2010, 13:22, Reply)

NHS spending has risen by 100% since 1997

Do you think that there has been a 100% increase in quality? this is a classic example of throwing money at a problem. Money borrowed by Labour that we will be paying back for the rest of our lives.

Labour have been shit even when they have borrowed more money than most people can egven imagine. What would have happened had they lived within their means? It doesn't bear thinking about.
( Naked Ape call me Caitlyn, Wed 21 Apr 2010, 13:27, Reply)

Here you go
This is what *I* see
Education - Massive amounts of money wasted on shiny new schools, falling standards of literacy, abdication of teacher power
NHS - Don't even bother telling me a shiny new hospital is worth it. I've spent six months in a hell-hole being absused and mistreated by overworked nurses. Or how about the millions spent on a non-working IT system, or the increase in administration, or the new PFIs?
Iraq - Oh wait Tony Blair couldn't lick George Bush's arse enough. He was Labour. Yeeeeah that was payback for the Falklands. No it was a weak man playing a bad hand badly
( Amberl was stripey and dominated Europe, Wed 21 Apr 2010, 13:30, Reply)

I worked in two of those school - still work in one. They are both very succesfull.
That's what I see.
I had to use one of the new hospitals. Very efficient, and while there was a lot of 'management' about, and I did feel a bit like product, the job was done.
That's what I saw.
Iraq - we shouldn't be there. Blair got out as soon as he realised he was not going to come up smelling of roses. But I'm glad you agree it was American policy. Brown would never have got us in.
( Larry Vest One day at a time, sweet Jesus, FFS., Wed 21 Apr 2010, 13:40, Reply)

I've had a very wide education
I've been to every type of school, and both my parents are teachers, and I can safely say that standards have dropped massively. Being a teacher is like being a social worker at the moment.
As for the hospitals on the surface they look good (sometimes) but I'm not merely basing my judgement on my own bad experience, but on other people I know who come out with what are pretty much horror stories. As NakedApe pointed out, it's simply not improved to the extent it should have with it's budget.
Iraq is just a fuck-up plain and simple, but it's Labour's fault for getting in there in the first place.
( Amberl was stripey and dominated Europe, Wed 21 Apr 2010, 13:45, Reply)

Foreigner
Hi. Sorry to but in - especially as I'm a foreigner and thus don't have a vote in the UK.

From my (limited) knowledge of the Falklands War, why would Iraq be pay-back for the Americans when it was Britain -v- Argentina, without American involvement?
(JohntheDane, Wed 21 Apr 2010, 13:42, Reply)

Curious Incident sort of thing.

( Larry Vest One day at a time, sweet Jesus, FFS., Wed 21 Apr 2010, 13:45, Reply)

You really think that the Conservatives care about the common man?
They have absolutley no idea about real life. How can they know what's best for us.
( girlinthehole, Wed 21 Apr 2010, 13:13, Reply)

How can they not have an idea about real life?
Or rather any less so than any other politician. Take a look at Nick Clegg's background why don't you?

I think they've got a better handle on what is needed than Labour does
( Amberl was stripey and dominated Europe, Wed 21 Apr 2010, 13:14, Reply)

you can say the same for most politicians
believe it or not, conservatives are people as well, and are much the same sort of people as the other parties, with a sprinkling more toffs.
( Vipros. clever got me this far, then tricky got me in, Wed 21 Apr 2010, 13:15, Reply)

to be honest
the Lib Dems have more toffs than the Conservatives in my university society
( Amberl was stripey and dominated Europe, Wed 21 Apr 2010, 13:19, Reply)

university societies can fuck off
the tosser who runs the Lib Dem society at Exeter Uni is on the Labour propaganda saying that as Lib Dems won't get in he's voting Labour to stop the Tories.

outrageous behaviour from anyone, let alone someone "involved" at university level.
( Vipros. clever got me this far, then tricky got me in, Wed 21 Apr 2010, 13:23, Reply)

That's the cuntiest thing I've heard all week
students are generally pricks and I say that in the full knowledge that I am one myself
( Amberl was stripey and dominated Europe, Wed 21 Apr 2010, 13:26, Reply)

I couldn't believe it when I read it

( Vipros. clever got me this far, then tricky got me in, Wed 21 Apr 2010, 13:34, Reply)

www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-stories/2010/04/21/conservative-general-election-candidate-rates-average-family-home-at-1million-115875-22200124/
( girlinthehole, Wed 21 Apr 2010, 13:20, Reply)

that guy is obviously an idiot
also, I didn't say they could relate to the man on the street, just that they weren't really any different from any other politician
( Vipros. clever got me this far, then tricky got me in, Wed 21 Apr 2010, 13:23, Reply)

I know but it made me laugh.

( girlinthehole, Wed 21 Apr 2010, 13:42, Reply)

That is a very stupid thing to say
However if you live in London, then million pound house are not that unusual, and the family living there may have been there for years riding the property boom. It doesn't mean they are exponetially richer then anyone else.
( Naked Ape call me Caitlyn, Wed 21 Apr 2010, 13:24, Reply)

well
(a) notice the word 'claiming'
(b) the lack of actual statistics
(c) the lack of comparisons
(d) it's The Mirror
( Amberl was stripey and dominated Europe, Wed 21 Apr 2010, 13:24, Reply)

All true: we agree on one more thing!
Pity about all the rest.
( Larry Vest One day at a time, sweet Jesus, FFS., Wed 21 Apr 2010, 13:29, Reply)

I don't care about the common man.
Filthy commoners. Ugh.
( Monty Boyce, My cheese game is strong, Wed 21 Apr 2010, 13:32, Reply)

I'm not rich enough to not care about the common man
yet
( Vipros. clever got me this far, then tricky got me in, Wed 21 Apr 2010, 13:34, Reply)

Thatcher
screwed the Prols, not the country.
( Kroney, Wed 21 Apr 2010, 13:00, Reply)

Not quite.
So while the rest of the world was propping up their ailing heavy industry base and infrastructure against the day things would improve (and they have), Thatcher dismantled ours thoroughly and effectively. Way to go.
(porkylips looks better as the sun goes down., Wed 21 Apr 2010, 13:05, Reply)

I can't disagree with that
But nobody in the Eighties, either in this country or any others could tell what was going to happen in the future. Unlike other European countries at the time, we went for a purely financial economy. Yeah, that screwed most people at the time who didn't have or couldn't afford the education necessary to get into the financial sector and as a humanitarian decision, it was a shit one.

However, her aim was to fix the economy the quickest way she could. Which she did. The Unions, whilst a good idea in general, had grown too powerful and paralised the country by mobolising the workforce every single time something happened that they didn't like. Thatcher did what she thought she needed to do to get rid of them. Once they were gone, the economy started to recover.

I think the whole thing could have been avoided if power-hungry Union bosses hadn't subverted the unions to feed their own agendas, but that's the problem inherent in Socialism, people are naturally out for themselves.
( Kroney, Wed 21 Apr 2010, 13:11, Reply)

My father in law would agree with you on this one.
Which, considering he worked down the mines during the 1980's is perhaps a bit strange. He thought the sun shone out of Thatcher's arse. Staunch Tory through and through (but by his own admission is unconvinced by Cameron).
( Davros' Granddad a voice of calm reason in a world of spastics., Wed 21 Apr 2010, 13:42, Reply)

Just goes to show
That you can't judge a voter by his party. I think Thatcher made some terrible decisions with awful implications for society on a humanist level, but saying that she wrecked the country isn't fair. Certainly you can't expect somebody like Thatcher to be too worried about the people when she's pursuing her goals.

She didn't wreck the country, but I think it's fair to say that when she fixed the country, she shafted society.
( Kroney, Wed 21 Apr 2010, 13:56, Reply)

This phrase annoys me soo much, voting on performance from 28 years ago is retarded
Labour didn't exactly have a great time in the 70's but I don't automatically rule them out because of this. i rule them out as they are a bunch of incompetent cunts now.
( Naked Ape call me Caitlyn, Wed 21 Apr 2010, 13:00, Reply)

Hmm - I see we have a few differences.
But we agree about Blair. He has moved on to lusher pastures and getting fat on it. History will probably record Blair as a continuation of Tory government and note the start of socialist work from Brown taking over.
( Larry Vest One day at a time, sweet Jesus, FFS., Wed 21 Apr 2010, 13:01, Reply)

I don't know if I can agree with that
the Tories generally take a line that favours the rich over the poor. That'll shaft you if you're the wrong side of the line, but their policies have had quantifiable benefits to the economy and they have reliably fixed problems the Labour party has caused. Labour have been in power three times within the last thirty or so years and each time there's been a significant recession. Each time the Tories were subsequently voted in, the economy improved.

I don't have any faith in Labour being capable of fixing the economic problems we currently have. The Tories have form in this area.

Incidentally, I don't like saying this. If I'm anything, I'm broadly old Labour in political leanings.
( Kroney, Wed 21 Apr 2010, 12:55, Reply)

Do you really think the bankers who caused this recession are Labour voters?
Wouldn't you query the motives of the 100 top companies' CEOs when they support Cameron? When Rose - who is/was GB's highest earning exec - attacks Brown don't you think it is entirely out of self interest?
( Larry Vest One day at a time, sweet Jesus, FFS., Wed 21 Apr 2010, 13:07, Reply)

Of course, but like it or not, business is the powerhouse of the economy

Labour has tried to grow the economy by increasing the size of the state to an enormous percentage of overall GDP, but this approach is limited and consequently we are now burdened with an enormous bill to pay for it.
( Naked Ape call me Caitlyn, Wed 21 Apr 2010, 13:12, Reply)

Yes but greedy and thoughtless business is the ruination of us all.
See: Bankers.
(porkylips looks better as the sun goes down., Wed 21 Apr 2010, 13:15, Reply)

It doesn't matter who they vote for
they did what they did after Labour relaxed the rules.
( Kroney, Wed 21 Apr 2010, 13:13, Reply)

"Each time the Tories were subsequently voted in, the economy improved".
Apart from that slight blip in the mid 80's and later the 90's when unemployment shot up to record levels, traditional industry was royally fucked over and interest rates hit 15%, forcing thousands of homeowners to have their properties reposessed as they could no longer afford to pay their mortgages.
( Davros' Granddad a voice of calm reason in a world of spastics., Wed 21 Apr 2010, 13:11, Reply)

Tories like high interest rates, and it would be one of their first tasks.
If you had investments or capital earning 0.1% that's what you would do. Of course, if you've got a mortgage on a shitty ex-council house higher interest rates hurt. Guess who the Tories listen to?
( Larry Vest One day at a time, sweet Jesus, FFS., Wed 21 Apr 2010, 13:15, Reply)

I own an ex-council flat and I earn well more national average wage,
a massive interest rate rise would wipe me out. It's not always the lowest earners who get screwed.
( Naked Ape call me Caitlyn, Wed 21 Apr 2010, 13:20, Reply)

Nobody is more pissed off than I am that my ISA is effectively worth fuck all at the moment.
But there's a balance between sensible interest rates and ones that are affecting ordinary people's quality of life to the point where they may have no roof over their heads.
( Davros' Granddad a voice of calm reason in a world of spastics., Wed 21 Apr 2010, 13:23, Reply)

Echo.
Please bear that in mind when making your mark.
( Larry Vest One day at a time, sweet Jesus, FFS., Wed 21 Apr 2010, 13:32, Reply)

Then again I own my home outright
So don't give a shit about interest rates.

I'm kidding, of course. Whilst it would be very nice for my savings to be returning a decent investment for me, current low rates are not impacting on my general quality of life. I could be a bit less skint at the end of the month, but the debt I am paying off just now is of my own making and I am doing without stuff in order to get it paid off as quickly as I can. On balance, I'd rather have this situation than one that sees ordinary people being squeezed left right and centre.
( Davros' Granddad a voice of calm reason in a world of spastics., Wed 21 Apr 2010, 13:40, Reply)

I'd be fucked by a big interest rate rise
I almost was a few months back anyway.
( Vipros. clever got me this far, then tricky got me in, Wed 21 Apr 2010, 13:43, Reply)

I've been trying to think about how to respond to this
I was pretty young at the time, so my memory's a bit vague. But didn't this coincide when industry and unions were dismantled? In a post higher up I've given my opinion on this, I think.
( Kroney, Wed 21 Apr 2010, 13:40, Reply)

Yeah
but it was still the result of Government policy decisions. Personally I'm of the opinion that this sort of thing is cyclical; for Brown to have claimed that there would be no more periods of boom and bust was utterly laughable, of course there fucking will be. It keeps bloody happening.
( Davros' Granddad a voice of calm reason in a world of spastics., Wed 21 Apr 2010, 14:02, Reply)