I had a dream where I was gradually disappearing as I died.
The nothingness was surrounding me and eating me.
I finally had the answer, and I didn't want it.

I guess that's why we probably invented life after death, for our fragile egos.

In saying that, whenever I'm in trouble, I ask my deceased great-grandma to mind me, and she always does.
( Roota zweeeeeoooooowm, Tue 3 Aug 2010, 11:03, 3 replies, latest was 16 years ago)

your fragile ego comment is pretty accurate I'd say
people can't grasp how insignificant they are.
( Vipros. clever got me this far, then tricky got me in, Tue 3 Aug 2010, 11:04, Reply)

I can't believe you said that
I imagine you refer to other people, not yourself.
(Aberracion Life's getting very complicated, but a lot of fun., Tue 3 Aug 2010, 11:06, Reply)

I know perfectly well how insignificant I am in the grand scheme of things
not to those who know and love me, but on a universal scale it would be massively conceited to think that any of us has any effect on anything.
( Vipros. clever got me this far, then tricky got me in, Tue 3 Aug 2010, 11:08, Reply)

Well put.

( Monty Boyce, My cheese game is strong, Tue 3 Aug 2010, 11:11, Reply)

Really
Like Einstein (to name one) didn't have any effect on anything? Do you think his life would have been the same withouht the other insingnificant lifes around his? A little change and he might have not have done all what he did. A little change and he might have done more.
(Aberracion Life's getting very complicated, but a lot of fun., Tue 3 Aug 2010, 11:11, Reply)

Einstein's utterly insignificant to:
The vast majority of everyone who came before him.
Pretty much every other type of lifeform other than humans.
Intergalactic Space Dogs.
( Labia Majora You keep on talking but it makes no sense at all, Tue 3 Aug 2010, 11:14, Reply)

Einstien won't stop a star going supernova in another galaxy.

(PsychoChomp, Tue 3 Aug 2010, 11:15, Reply)

Intergalactic Space Dogs will though.

(TheColonel, Tue 3 Aug 2010, 11:16, Reply)

Maybe something he found out
will help someone in the future to do it.
(Aberracion Life's getting very complicated, but a lot of fun., Tue 3 Aug 2010, 11:22, Reply)

^this
dinosaurs existed for a shitload longer than humanity has (and probably will) and we don't feel the affect of them, other than in museums and in the cinema.
( Vipros. clever got me this far, then tricky got me in, Tue 3 Aug 2010, 11:16, Reply)

They didn't develop their brains as we did, I think
and you don't know for how much longer humanity is going to be here (or somewhere else)
(Aberracion Life's getting very complicated, but a lot of fun., Tue 3 Aug 2010, 11:23, Reply)

I strongly suspect it won't be as long as the dinosaurs were around
unless something unpredictable happens. Unfortunately the unpredictable is weighted heavily in favour of something happening that will fuck us over.
( Vipros. clever got me this far, then tricky got me in, Tue 3 Aug 2010, 11:25, Reply)

Well, the way I see it
Dinosaurs were here a lot longer than us, however, they didn't achieve a tiny fraction of what we have. The reason we move forwards is a collective achievment. There are some bright heads and brave hearts that we remember more, but the environment were they grow up, the other insignificant people around them, made them what they were.

I don't think we're as fucked as some people want us to believe. I think we have time to change and improve things.
(Aberracion Life's getting very complicated, but a lot of fun., Tue 3 Aug 2010, 11:33, Reply)

Raaaar.

( Davros' Granddad a voice of calm reason in a world of spastics., Tue 3 Aug 2010, 11:36, Reply)

the universe is something like 13 billion years old
and contains an absurd number of galaxies and planets and whatnot. On that scale, the achievements of one man, or any of the people connected to him have no bearing on anything.

I'm not denying the importance of the actions of an individual on us as a species, but we are such a small part of the whole of everything.

Even if the entire history of mankind had been radically different it would still only have affected things basically on the surface (and slightly above) of one tiny planet in one solar system in one galaxy.
( Vipros. clever got me this far, then tricky got me in, Tue 3 Aug 2010, 11:15, Reply)

this sums it up nicely using the media of comedy and song
www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWVshkVF0SY
( Vipros. clever got me this far, then tricky got me in, Tue 3 Aug 2010, 11:19, Reply)

You cannot know that
As you don't know how we're changing the future of the universe.
(Aberracion Life's getting very complicated, but a lot of fun., Tue 3 Aug 2010, 11:24, Reply)

the universe is so unimaginably large
that our actions simply can't be affecting it in any significant way.
( Vipros. clever got me this far, then tricky got me in, Tue 3 Aug 2010, 11:25, Reply)

Again
You cannot know that. You can guess and assume that. But you'll never know (unless there's life after dead and we get to see the future, coming back to the thread)
(Aberracion Life's getting very complicated, but a lot of fun., Tue 3 Aug 2010, 11:34, Reply)

we can never know
but it's a far more likely assumption. If there is life after death and we see that that has happened, then I'll find you and buy (or equivalent) you a drink (or equivalent)!
( Vipros. clever got me this far, then tricky got me in, Tue 3 Aug 2010, 11:40, Reply)

Aren't we just like cats or dogs?
They don't grasp the idea of the internet or the universe but it's around them and in their lives.
What's around us that we don't have the brain capacity to understand or even see?
( chickenlady b3ta's very own Elizabeth Taylor, Tue 3 Aug 2010, 11:42, Reply)

I think so
And I trully hope we get to understand everything after dead, even if it's only for a millisecond, I want everything to make sense.
(Aberracion Life's getting very complicated, but a lot of fun., Tue 3 Aug 2010, 11:48, Reply)

I want to know who killed JFK.
( chickenlady b3ta's very own Elizabeth Taylor, Tue 3 Aug 2010, 11:54, Reply)

OK!
I really hope that is what comes after death. I don't want another life, I want to be able to see and understand everything.

Have you read The Light of Other Days, by C. Clarke? That is so much my desired future!
(Aberracion Life's getting very complicated, but a lot of fun., Tue 3 Aug 2010, 11:48, Reply)

It's my best chat-up line
"Hey baby, ever realised how futile your existence is? Fancy sitting on my face?"
(TheColonel, Tue 3 Aug 2010, 11:12, Reply)

I agree
I think we are incredibly insignificant but all think we're important. It's like when someone has one of those past life regressions done - always Cleopatra. Never, ever some toilet cleaner from Macclesfield.
( chickenlady b3ta's very own Elizabeth Taylor, Tue 3 Aug 2010, 11:06, Reply)

Would it not be fun if Cleopatra believed that she was a toilet cleaner from Macclesfield?

( Bartleby A dead man on vacation, Tue 3 Aug 2010, 11:08, Reply)

Oi!
I've told you, I'm not a toilet cleaner, the term is Sanitation Consultant.

But yes, I am in Macclesfield
( Agnostic Antichrist Baltimora, Tue 3 Aug 2010, 11:13, Reply)

Alright Cleo!
;)
( chickenlady b3ta's very own Elizabeth Taylor, Tue 3 Aug 2010, 11:14, Reply)

Haha

( Agnostic Antichrist Baltimora, Tue 3 Aug 2010, 11:27, Reply)

This much is true
I'm actually quite ok with it, but then I find the idea of fate and pre-determinism ridiculous. I much prefer the thought that life on a whole is chaotic and random, with no proof to support a life-after-death theory.
( Labia Majora You keep on talking but it makes no sense at all, Tue 3 Aug 2010, 11:07, Reply)

If you think life is not pre-determined, caothic and random
then you can't believe at the same time that we are all insignificant, because every little thing we do, will have an effect in the future.
(Aberracion Life's getting very complicated, but a lot of fun., Tue 3 Aug 2010, 11:13, Reply)

Individually our lives will have thousands of 'knock on' effects, yes
But in the grand scope of the universe throughout time, these will have excruciatingly little significance (although I concede that they will have some, so not strictly insignificant).
( Labia Majora You keep on talking but it makes no sense at all, Tue 3 Aug 2010, 11:15, Reply)

That you don't know
It could be that in the grand scope of the universe we'll be the greatest race ever, and we'll bring peace and technology to the whole of the space and time.

Unlikely, but you don't know. So your life is very important, because making the most of it, living it to the full and giving as much as you can, you make our race better.
(Aberracion Life's getting very complicated, but a lot of fun., Tue 3 Aug 2010, 11:18, Reply)

This could be true
I'm not going to piss my life away because I believe I have very little significance to the universe, I'm going to piss it away because it's fun and I'm not that clever.
( Labia Majora You keep on talking but it makes no sense at all, Tue 3 Aug 2010, 11:20, Reply)

Ours lives are very important to us obviously
they are all we have, so should enjoy them as much as possible (which I am attempting to do) but given the size of the universe and the probability, I can't believe that we are the only planet with intelligent life. I'm not saying I think we'll ever be contacted by it, because that is almost as unlikely as there not being any others, but I strongly doubt we'll be the greatest race ever.
( Vipros. clever got me this far, then tricky got me in, Tue 3 Aug 2010, 11:21, Reply)

Well
I wonder what would have happened if the great people of the past had decided they didn't give a fuck and didn't fight for a better life, didn't keep on doing research... Our lifes would know be probably like those of the humans thousands of years ago.

Don't you wonder what we'll be able to do, given enough time, to the rest of the Universe? Don't you really believe we can be a great race?
(Aberracion Life's getting very complicated, but a lot of fun., Tue 3 Aug 2010, 11:30, Reply)

What Vipros and I are saying about insignificance
Does not mean we advocate people do nothing. We just have this life, it'd be stupid not to make it the best it can be, for everyone.
( Labia Majora You keep on talking but it makes no sense at all, Tue 3 Aug 2010, 11:32, Reply)

nice and succinct

( Vipros. clever got me this far, then tricky got me in, Tue 3 Aug 2010, 11:35, Reply)

So if you make it better for someone else
your life is not insignificant anymore. And on top of that, you don't know what repercusions your acts have on the future.
(Aberracion Life's getting very complicated, but a lot of fun., Tue 3 Aug 2010, 11:35, Reply)

There are different levels of significance.
There's what's significant to you, to people you know, to strangers, to the world, to the universe etc.
( Labia Majora You keep on talking but it makes no sense at all, Tue 3 Aug 2010, 11:36, Reply)

No, it's still insignificant
everyone you ever meet or know will die, every bit of information we ever record will burn and the universe won't even notice.
(PsychoChomp, Tue 3 Aug 2010, 11:36, Reply)

yes

( Vipros. clever got me this far, then tricky got me in, Tue 3 Aug 2010, 11:37, Reply)

You might be forgotten
That's not the same as being insignificant. Your action might have triggered something that will make the future better. Maybe that person you helped recovered faith in humanity and started to work towards something that will be great. Your name will never be there, but if you hadn't helped that person, she/he wouldn't have done that great thing that improved our race.
(Aberracion Life's getting very complicated, but a lot of fun., Tue 3 Aug 2010, 11:40, Reply)

Until a black hole swallows you up
or our galaxy crashes into another or any of our local stars go supernova. Then everyone dies, everything gets fried and there is literally no trace of what once was.
(PsychoChomp, Tue 3 Aug 2010, 11:42, Reply)

We might have moved into another galaxy by then
We might have found out how to control supernovas.

We might be all dead, but we might not. Whatever we do today will decide our future.
(Aberracion Life's getting very complicated, but a lot of fun., Tue 3 Aug 2010, 11:44, Reply)

Intergalactic travel is never going to happen I'm afraid.

(PsychoChomp, Tue 3 Aug 2010, 11:46, Reply)

unfortuantely true
they are just too fucking far away
( Vipros. clever got me this far, then tricky got me in, Tue 3 Aug 2010, 11:48, Reply)

That's why people laughed at Columbus
We only need the knowledge and time.
(Aberracion Life's getting very complicated, but a lot of fun., Tue 3 Aug 2010, 11:50, Reply)

we'd need to be able to fundamentally bugger about with the laws of physics and space-time

( Vipros. clever got me this far, then tricky got me in, Tue 3 Aug 2010, 11:53, Reply)

Well, sort of
Space-time travel is not explicitly forbidden by current physics. It's just that the energies required and the length scales involved are phenomenally large and incredibly small respectively.
( K2k6 has a proper job these days, Tue 3 Aug 2010, 12:00, Reply)

was trying not to get too sciency :-P

( Vipros. clever got me this far, then tricky got me in, Tue 3 Aug 2010, 12:01, Reply)

I'm very sciency by nature!

( K2k6 has a proper job these days, Tue 3 Aug 2010, 12:02, Reply)

me too, but I try not to let on

( Vipros. clever got me this far, then tricky got me in, Tue 3 Aug 2010, 12:06, Reply)

Just think of all the people who tried to get humans to fly
and how many more laughed at them or "proved" it impossible.
(Aberracion Life's getting very complicated, but a lot of fun., Tue 3 Aug 2010, 12:13, Reply)

~2,500,000 light years away
If we can go faster than the speed of light, which isn't even mathmatically or theoretically possible at the moment, that's still a long time before we get there.
(PsychoChomp, Tue 3 Aug 2010, 11:54, Reply)

Or we find a wormhole
I know, I know. But it could be.
(Aberracion Life's getting very complicated, but a lot of fun., Tue 3 Aug 2010, 11:56, Reply)

nearest one is 25k light years
Andromeda is the nearest spiral at 2.5 million
( Vipros. clever got me this far, then tricky got me in, Tue 3 Aug 2010, 12:01, Reply)

what we are talking about is getting further apart now
within the context of the human race one person's actions can be significant, but on the universal scale they aren't.

To bring it back to life after death, my view is that as we are such a small and insignificant part of the universe why would we be singled out for such a thing? unless it is a side-effect of consciousness, but then where do you draw the line. Would all animals be there? Just us, dolhpins and chimps and the like? How about aliens?

I certainly don't think that there can be an afterlife in the religious sense as that would imply that we are somehow special amongst the vastness of everything, and that is just massively egomaniacal.
( Vipros. clever got me this far, then tricky got me in, Tue 3 Aug 2010, 11:45, Reply)

Ok, well
You have to admit that we are somehow special. To start with, we're having this conversation. No other animal considers anything like this.
(Aberracion Life's getting very complicated, but a lot of fun., Tue 3 Aug 2010, 11:51, Reply)

oh yeah, I find our existence amazing
I'm a stoner don't forget ;-)
( Vipros. clever got me this far, then tricky got me in, Tue 3 Aug 2010, 11:54, Reply)

:-D
I keep hoping. I think we can do a lot.
(Aberracion Life's getting very complicated, but a lot of fun., Tue 3 Aug 2010, 11:56, Reply)

I find things like the way our skin works fascinating
hands as well. good stuff.
( Vipros. clever got me this far, then tricky got me in, Tue 3 Aug 2010, 11:58, Reply)

The more I learnt at school about white cells
and how they protect us, the more amazed I was that we were alive :)
(Aberracion Life's getting very complicated, but a lot of fun., Tue 3 Aug 2010, 12:03, Reply)

How do we know that other great apes don't consider this?
Or dolphins?
( chickenlady b3ta's very own Elizabeth Taylor, Tue 3 Aug 2010, 11:56, Reply)

There are other reasons why we differ
even if you want to believe they have conciousness and they think about themselves as individuals, they don't modify their habitat to make their life easier, not in a big scale (I don't think they do it even in a small scale) and they act without considering what'll happen in the future.
(Aberracion Life's getting very complicated, but a lot of fun., Tue 3 Aug 2010, 12:04, Reply)

Beavers modify their environment.
Heheh beavers.
(wellgroomedwookiee is a filthy-minded hobgoblin, Tue 3 Aug 2010, 12:18, Reply)

it's significant on a small scale
what we're getting at is that the human scale is totally insignificant when compared to the rest of the universe.
( Vipros. clever got me this far, then tricky got me in, Tue 3 Aug 2010, 11:37, Reply)

I believe we can be a great race within the limits that we exist.
I don't believe people should stop striving to better themselves or our civilisation, because we have to make the most of what we have and to try and perpetuate ourselves and so forth, but I also don't harbour any doubts that beyond our small sphere of influence we will have no impact.

I absolutely think that we could achieve amazing things, but only when measured at an appropriate scale.

When viewed against the sheer enormity of the rest of everything it's my opinion that trying to think we matter is absurd.

Fortunately it is also irrelevant, so there isn't really any point in thinking about it, other than as an interesting philosophical exercise.
( Vipros. clever got me this far, then tricky got me in, Tue 3 Aug 2010, 11:34, Reply)

Yep, but I like this exercise
(although you lost me with a few fancy words, up there)

Give us a couple of billions of years and we might have expanded through half of the universe.
(Aberracion Life's getting very complicated, but a lot of fun., Tue 3 Aug 2010, 11:37, Reply)

we might
and I'm totally in support of it. I'm just not holding my breath in anticipation ;-)

thoroughly enjoying the discussion. which words lost you?
( Vipros. clever got me this far, then tricky got me in, Tue 3 Aug 2010, 11:39, Reply)

I like being able to discuss these things without
a) being called a freak/nerd
b) getting the other person upset and shouting at me :)

I'm not holding my breath either, but I really hope so. And I really believe that our acts today will have an effect on the future, somehow. Sometimes a big effect, sometimes just something small, but they do.

Striving and harbour, but I think I got the general meaning.
(Aberracion Life's getting very complicated, but a lot of fun., Tue 3 Aug 2010, 11:43, Reply)

I love discussions like this
It's why I studied Philosophy.
( Labia Majora You keep on talking but it makes no sense at all, Tue 3 Aug 2010, 11:46, Reply)

yeah, me too
it's why I studied civil engineering....

I was saying to my mrs the other day that I really miss this sort of discussion, it's the sort of thing I used to do with mates at uni and stuff all day/night, and these days I only really get it on here.
( Vipros. clever got me this far, then tricky got me in, Tue 3 Aug 2010, 11:47, Reply)

At some LARPs, when people are drinking around a campfire early in the morning
I like to kick off debates about fate vs free will, and just watch people talk, chipping in here and there with counter arguments to keep things flowing.
( Labia Majora You keep on talking but it makes no sense at all, Tue 3 Aug 2010, 11:51, Reply)

I miss them a lot too
We had compulsory Phylosophy at school for 2 years (17 and 18 years old). I wanted to be an engineer, so I didn't study it any longer, but kept reading some good books.

Those 2 years we'd spend the day on the beach, singing and discussing about life and humanity. Great times.
(Aberracion Life's getting very complicated, but a lot of fun., Tue 3 Aug 2010, 11:53, Reply)

well, we are all quite freaky and nerdy
I don't tend to get upset, unless someone is being absolutely wrong and won't accept it. In this sort of discussion it's hard to be dead wrong.

striving = working towards
harbour = have
:-)
( Vipros. clever got me this far, then tricky got me in, Tue 3 Aug 2010, 11:47, Reply)

Ta-ra
I had the meaning right!

Yep, and if someone gets upset I can just switch this thing off.

My friends were all a bit close minded, but I loved so much to make them think different, even if I wasn't really sure of what I was saying :P
(Aberracion Life's getting very complicated, but a lot of fun., Tue 3 Aug 2010, 11:55, Reply)

nice work :-)
that's true

I don't tend to argue anyway. Been with my mrs for 6 years and we've never argued, we've had disagreements, but not what I'd call an argument.
( Vipros. clever got me this far, then tricky got me in, Tue 3 Aug 2010, 11:57, Reply)

Oh I've had arguments
My girlfriend likes to win such discussions, even when there can't be a 'winner'.
( Labia Majora You keep on talking but it makes no sense at all, Tue 3 Aug 2010, 11:58, Reply)

was talking about this with my mate the other day
I'd had a number of beers and jagers and spliffs and came to the conclusion that it's a result of being too laid back and too right :-D
( Vipros. clever got me this far, then tricky got me in, Tue 3 Aug 2010, 12:00, Reply)

:D
I don't argue about these things, as nobody can win. I get upset about more material things, I'm affraid.

I used to discuss with that crazy poet boyfriend I had (the one that stopped the cars) because he was far too pesimist without a reason.
(Aberracion Life's getting very complicated, but a lot of fun., Tue 3 Aug 2010, 12:07, Reply)

I only occasionally argue with my mum
That's it.
( Roota zweeeeeoooooowm, Tue 3 Aug 2010, 12:01, Reply)

no you don't

( Vipros. clever got me this far, then tricky got me in, Tue 3 Aug 2010, 12:02, Reply)

Yes i fucking do!
Shit.
( Roota zweeeeeoooooowm, Tue 3 Aug 2010, 12:04, Reply)

I ask my grandma to look after me too
and it works. It might be my mind playing tricks, but it works, so I'll keep doing it.
(Aberracion Life's getting very complicated, but a lot of fun., Tue 3 Aug 2010, 11:07, Reply)

Dayum!
You have some intense dreams. That said I had one the other night where I gradually went blind, I think it was because of an interview with Sue Townsend I'd read.

I think the invention of an afterlife is to do with the uncertainty and apparent pointlessness in life, people like to think there's a plan and a goal. But I think it's also worthwhile recognising that if it is largely pointless then you shouldn't take things too seriously, try and enjoy it and 'fart-about' as Vonnegut put it.
(Zoz prayed for twink on, Tue 3 Aug 2010, 11:22, Reply)

Yup

( Roota zweeeeeoooooowm, Tue 3 Aug 2010, 11:28, Reply)