I just found out about "Junior Apprentice".
I am shocked and appalled.
( Moon Girl Technologies horrendous beanbag, Wed 26 May 2010, 22:30, archived)

Why?

( in vino veritas, Wed 26 May 2010, 22:38, archived)

Children being encouraged to be like Alan Sugar.
The guy's a tosser.
( Neptune A dole queue dosser and foul mouthed chav., Wed 26 May 2010, 22:39, archived)

This can easily be remedied by reference to Cassetteboy.

( wynoh kills threads by his mere presence, Wed 26 May 2010, 22:41, archived)

Well yes
but I think those particular children were probably already pretty damn annoying before they went on television.
( in vino veritas, Wed 26 May 2010, 22:42, archived)

Pushy parents, no doubt,
which is a terrible enough phenomenon as it is.
( Moon Girl Technologies horrendous beanbag, Wed 26 May 2010, 22:43, archived)

If there's anything worse than children wishing to acheive success in a career
it's those appalling parents wanting their children to be happy and successful. What utter bastards.
( in vino veritas, Wed 26 May 2010, 23:06, archived)

On the other hand, parents filling in their kids' university applications for them and shepherding them around at visits, interviews etc. is taking it too far.

( The Mock TurtIe ™ --- Thinks you are a cunt, on, Wed 26 May 2010, 23:09, archived)

That's not so much pushy as controlling

( in vino veritas, Wed 26 May 2010, 23:11, archived)

for the love of god don't get into an argument with MGT on something like this, it's too exasperating
she wants us all to walk everywhere and hunt our own food and not progress as a society.
( spangolin - the odds are good but the goods are odd, Wed 26 May 2010, 23:10, archived)

Oh can't I?
But it's such fun!
( in vino veritas, Wed 26 May 2010, 23:11, archived)

We should progress as a society,
we should progress as individuals.
We should not progress as an economy, as a machine.
( Moon Girl Technologies horrendous beanbag, Wed 26 May 2010, 23:12, archived)

*dons tinfoil hat*

( spangolin - the odds are good but the goods are odd, Wed 26 May 2010, 23:13, archived)

That's hardly what pushy parenting is.

( Moon Girl Technologies horrendous beanbag, Wed 26 May 2010, 23:11, archived)

Help me understand
What is pushy parenting?
( in vino veritas, Wed 26 May 2010, 23:16, archived)

Ambition on your child's behalf,
manipulating them into choosing the path you want for them without a thought for their own desires or wishes, sure they think they want their kids to be happy but they're convinced they know better as to how they can become so.
( Moon Girl Technologies horrendous beanbag, Wed 26 May 2010, 23:20, archived)

Very few parents do that.
It's usually rich families that do that. "You will be a Doctor!" etc. Stereotype maybe, but true.

Nothing to do with anything of course.
( Dave Trouser ; the people's choice - 75% agree, Wed 26 May 2010, 23:35, archived)

Encouraging kids to be ambitious and focus on careers and stuff,
corrupting young minds, it's bad enough when they show adults acting up like that but at least we can accept that they have made their own minds up. This is just shameless entrepreneurialist brainwashing.
( Moon Girl Technologies horrendous beanbag, Wed 26 May 2010, 22:41, archived)

Might as well put the little swine on telly
the rest of us will therefore know whom to avoid.
( wynoh kills threads by his mere presence, Wed 26 May 2010, 22:42, archived)

What's wrong with ambition and wanting a career when you're 16 or 17?

( in vino veritas, Wed 26 May 2010, 22:43, archived)

Nobody knows what they want when they're 16 or 17,
this is going to fuck the rest of their lives up.
It's bad enough that bright kids are expected to go to university at 18.
( Moon Girl Technologies horrendous beanbag, Wed 26 May 2010, 22:44, archived)

this
I'll get back to them when I've got any idea what I want to do. /32
( mr horrible up yours, dickface, Wed 26 May 2010, 22:46, archived)

Adult society's value system is fucked up,
and we're pushing it on to the next generation like heroin.
( Moon Girl Technologies horrendous beanbag, Wed 26 May 2010, 22:48, archived)

No-one pushes heroin
just saying, like.
( wotofco pissing in your swimming pool, Wed 26 May 2010, 23:48, archived)

What do they get if they win?

( MooCow_Byter, Wed 26 May 2010, 22:46, archived)

An e-mailer.

( Neptune A dole queue dosser and foul mouthed chav., Wed 26 May 2010, 22:47, archived)

Haha, I really hope that's true.
His secretary having to use one of those was pretty much the best thing about The Apprentice.
( MooCow_Byter, Wed 26 May 2010, 22:55, archived)

I've never watched the apprentice.
Alan Sugar is a tosser.
( Neptune A dole queue dosser and foul mouthed chav., Wed 26 May 2010, 22:56, archived)

I knew exactly what I wanted at 17
free ecstasy.
( wotofco pissing in your swimming pool, Wed 26 May 2010, 22:46, archived)

well any later and they'd have left home
and to do that, you need a job. At 18 you are most likely still living at home, so can drop it all and go to University.
( spangolin - the odds are good but the goods are odd, Wed 26 May 2010, 22:46, archived)

It would sort out the ones who really give a toss, and no mistake.

( Moon Girl Technologies horrendous beanbag, Wed 26 May 2010, 22:50, archived)

you'd be left with the ones with rich parents, surely

( spangolin - the odds are good but the goods are odd, Wed 26 May 2010, 22:52, archived)

...and the ones who give a toss.
Mature students DO exist.
( Moon Girl Technologies horrendous beanbag, Wed 26 May 2010, 22:54, archived)

I just wanted another beer.

( JessAction Give me all your expensive brandy and hubcaps., Wed 26 May 2010, 22:47, archived)

When I did my research project,
the other MChem student was regarded in a much better light, because she had known exactly what career she wanted to do at about 14 and had planned all the necessary work experience etc., and I'd more or less drifted along through life and played it by ear. I believe she's now doing a Ph.D and is well on course to a lucrative career in pharmaceuticals.

Although career advisors, teachers and would-be employers loved her for her sheer single-mindedness, she was incredibly stuffy and snobbish, and made me look like a social butterfly in comparison.
( The Mock TurtIe ™ --- Thinks you are a cunt, on, Wed 26 May 2010, 22:54, archived)

When I was 12 I wanted to be a computer programmer.
When I was 16 I realised most computer programming was actually rather dull so I went into science instead.
When I was 25 I realised being a scientist was fucking awful and ran for the hills.
Now I'm 33 and a computer programmer.
It is rather dull.
So it goes.
( Moon Girl Technologies horrendous beanbag, Wed 26 May 2010, 23:04, archived)

This doesn't mean "nobody knows" when they're 16.
I wanted to be in IT or electronics from the age of 8. I was indeed in that career by 18 and stayed there until I got very unwell a few years ago. Now I run my own IT business instead.

I'd not say everyone has that clear ambition, and very few have your apathy. I say they're likely someway between you and me and have a vague idea.

Don't project your own life onto others and label any encouragment of ambition as a Bad Thing, it's just dumb. We've done this one before: ambition and competition are what drives mankind forward. If we did it your way we'd still be apes in caves.
( Dave Trouser ; the people's choice - 75% agree, Wed 26 May 2010, 23:14, archived)

I know it doesn't,
it was just an example of how things can turn out funny.
( Moon Girl Technologies horrendous beanbag, Wed 26 May 2010, 23:18, archived)

You're assuming everyone lacks ambition or direction in life as you do.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with it. If a 16 year old expresses an interest, then they should be encouraged. This country needs it.
( Dave Trouser ; the people's choice - 75% agree, Wed 26 May 2010, 23:02, archived)

We are shaped by our society.
The 16 year old isn't the leader here.
( Moon Girl Technologies horrendous beanbag, Wed 26 May 2010, 23:10, archived)

Why can't a 16 year old be a leader?
They might be intelligent, energetic and focussed with lots of fresh ideas.

I was running a newsagent for a day a week when I was 16 or 17 when the owner had a day off. Not saying that's particularly "being a leader" but I was competent and capable, even at that age.
( in vino veritas, Wed 26 May 2010, 23:22, archived)

I'm not saying they can't,
I'm saying they're not, in this particular situation.
( Moon Girl Technologies horrendous beanbag, Wed 26 May 2010, 23:32, archived)

How can you be certain?
When does "society's influence" end and personal volition start? How do you know that no sixteen or seventeen year old can possibly have ambitions that were not imposed by society?

Looking at it another way: if a sixteen year old committed a crime, would that be their fault or society's fault? How about if the criminal was only eight? What if they were twenty-five?
( in vino veritas, Wed 26 May 2010, 23:40, archived)

I'm not saying that.
I'm saying it is morally dubious to try to push people into it, or present it as a social ideal, on the television.
( Moon Girl Technologies horrendous beanbag, Wed 26 May 2010, 23:50, archived)

But that IS what you said
You said "We are shaped by our society. The 16 year old isn't the leader here." and that "I'm saying they're not [a leader], in this particular situation." That indicates to me that you believe society is telling the young person what to think and that they don't have personal autonomy at that age.

I'm not sure the producers of the programme are presenting it as a social ideal to be honest. They're presenting it as entertaining television.
( in vino veritas, Wed 26 May 2010, 23:58, archived)

The situation, that I started this whole conversation with,
is that of "Junior Apprentice". A show which, I suspect, was not commissioned by teenagers.

The producers might not be purposefully presenting it as a social ideal, but they're still doing it. Really they're only uncritically echoing a general pre-existing sentiment.
( Moon Girl Technologies horrendous beanbag, Thu 27 May 2010, 0:03, archived)

Some people find being an entraponure fun, and enjoy business, I know I did at that age, and even younger.
It shows people that you don't need to go to uni to be"successful" and I think that's a good thing, one of the worst things Tony blair did to this country was encourage 59% of people to go uni.
( G/PP 💩💩💩💩💩&#128, Wed 26 May 2010, 23:21, archived)