Not a spokesperson, but ok:
If trans people don't play sport in their affirmed gender, where do they?
Going through transition is brutal on the body and doesn't create advantages.
Anti trans sentiment tends to come from right leaning sources as part of a wider political agenda, stirring up trans phobia to win votes, with no regard for the hurt it does to trans people.
The psychological damage of having your identity attacked leads to vastly inflated suicide and self harm rates among trans people.
Also, silly costumes and bad basketball. Jessie is a fun geeky lass.
(
Invisible Wizard - 13th Level Scrote, Mon 28 Jun 2021, 20:31,
Reply)
Not sure what the solution is but you can't really ignore the biological advantage
link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40279-020-01389-3
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Mudface The web isn't callipygian, Mon 28 Jun 2021, 20:43,
Reply)
Jessie's main point
- is that trans kids need to be allowed to play as their affirmed genders so that the late transition advantages aren't a factor.
So maybe there are advantages to late transitioning adult women, but we need to look past that and bring trans kids up without the horrors and pain that the past generations went through.
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Invisible Wizard - 13th Level Scrote, Mon 28 Jun 2021, 20:59,
Reply)
Just letting them play as their affirmed gender won't cancel out any advantages they get from their biology though
The only thing that might do that is hormone treatment isn't it?
(, Mon 28 Jun 2021, 21:54, Reply)
If
They experience puberty as boys they have higher bone density and greater muscle mass. They are usually taller.
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An Egg ,D, Tue 29 Jun 2021, 0:37,
Reply)
and what about the advantage that the transgender get to train all month long
while the woman athlete is red sails in the sunset and it's cactus week at home
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cumquat may will not be commenting further on the allegations, Tue 29 Jun 2021, 3:24,
Reply)
This is the point of helping teens transition before puberty makes their body more alien and disturbing to them.
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Invisible Wizard - 13th Level Scrote, Tue 29 Jun 2021, 7:34,
Reply)
this is where it starts to fall down a bit
I would be reluctant to allow my child to take hormones before they'd reached an age (adulthood) where they could make rational, informed decisions for themselves. As you say, it is a brutal process that often has a deleterious effect on the body and it's not one that I would want to see my child undergo unnecessarily. I don't consider their potential future participation in affirmed gender sports to be an important enough issue to risk their health and wellbeing
(, Tue 29 Jun 2021, 8:58, Reply)
Quite so.
This was the crucial point - and will be again - in Bell v Tavistock. The long-term harm of things like puberty-blockers is unknown, and detransition rates are - at the lowest - non-trival. It's therefore not clear that informed consent from the child is possible. Neither is it wholly obvious that the decision could be made in the child's best interests by the parents.
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Enzyme is powered by sunlight, Tue 29 Jun 2021, 9:24,
Reply)
not sure you'd agree with this but
there seems to be some reluctance to acknowledge that gender dysmorphia might be a mental illness, perhaps because mental illness carries a stigma which they dont want to burden their cause with, perhaps because homosexuality was once (and still is sometimes) characterised as a mental illness by people who oppose it.
But this isnt about adults wanting to have sex with other consenting adults. This is about adults imposing potentially dangerous and irreversible medical interventions on children to make themselves feel better. That is not the same and it needs to be discussed.
(, Tue 29 Jun 2021, 10:37, Reply)
Dysphoria is not something about which I know anything, so I'll tread carefully here.
Lots of people might have gender dysphoria, insofar as that they are made unhappy by gendered expectations. The solution to that, as far as I can see, is to remove the expectations - gender abolitionism - rather than anything else.
There are people who are deeply unhappy because of their (sexed) body. I have no idea what's going on there, or what the best solution would be. It may be that there's no good solution, and the best solution is simply the least-bad one. Again, no clue. But none of that would mean that one is "really" a member of the oppisite sex.
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Enzyme is powered by sunlight, Tue 29 Jun 2021, 10:53,
Reply)
I think the case could be made to allow trans athletes to compete as a separate category in the Paralympics for example
I'm not sure it's what they want exactly but I think it might be a more appropriate response to their condition
(, Tue 29 Jun 2021, 11:10, Reply)
beside the fact that there aren't categories at the paralympics for most mental illness, as much as I'd like to see the 800m for depressives, I think you're painting with too broad a brush
there's plenty of odd things that people do that you could classify as mental illness, but I reckon the term should be reserved for things that are harmful or debilitating and not just different. Being obsessed with wanting to fuck kids is a mental illness because it's harmful to them, while wanting to fuck fat black women isn't because it doesn't harm anyone. If it did it'd be a mental illness. Why do people want to fuck kids, black women, or think they should be a woman? Because we have messy complicated brains in a messy complicated society.
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cumquat may will not be commenting further on the allegations, Wed 30 Jun 2021, 4:53,
Reply)
The comparison to paedophila is not valid and you should withdraw it
For whatever reason, people proposing hormone treatment for kids believe they are acting in the child's best interest. Tarring them with the nonce brush is just as ridiculous and unhelpful as the accusations of misogyny below.
(, Wed 30 Jun 2021, 6:38, Reply)
withdraw it?
what do you think this is, parliament? Besides, paedophilic disorder is a recognised mental health disorder on the DSM-5, while as far as I know, being obsessed with big black women isn't. It's a fine, rich example to illustrate my point as to why we categorise some things as mental health disorders and others not, based around harm. I don't think wanting to be a chick is a mental health disorder as you and enzyme seem to want to characterise it. Paralympics, indeed. Mine is merely crude, while its you two that are entertaining bullshit notions that we should have left behind in the 50s, like sterilising turing just for being a bender
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cumquat may will not be commenting further on the allegations, Wed 30 Jun 2021, 9:17,
Reply)
least I'm not a cunt who thinks transpeople should compete in the paralympics
you're too earnest and slow to have meant it as a joke
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cumquat may will not be commenting further on the allegations, Wed 30 Jun 2021, 11:13,
Reply)
Agree that tarring with the nonce brush is shit and unhelpful
…but I’m dubious about the “best interest” thing.
The reason for this is that there’s a lot of evidence to suggest that these two groups (im focusing on male people here for the moment):
1: male children who are gender non-conforming and claim to be girls
2: middle aged males who come out as trans later in life
are entirely different demographics - group 1, left untreated, does not grow into group 2.
There are all manner of possible reasons for group 1, not least environmental factors and the fact that if a small human boy is taught a differing definition of “girl” that allows male children to be one, and that seems to summarise his personality, then *of course* some boys will genuinely believe they’re girls, it’s just that they’re basing that identity on the idea that “girl” *is* an identity and not a neutral descriptor. Factor in the lovebombing that trans kids receive from organisations who treat “trans” as a brilliant thing to be, and the current cultural tendency to see trans kids as “special” and add in that to a small child “we can change you into the girl you are meant to be” has more relevance as a strategy to be safe from bullying than as anything about future life and it’s easy to see that there is a credible possibility that maybe these are kids being told bullshit by adults
However, older middle aged transitioners, in order to support their claims to literally be women, to literally have an intrinsic sense of gender that should overwrite sex for them, and for everyone else, *need* for there to be a group of young people they can point to as evidence that they have *always* been women.
And as the Tavistock whistleblowers are saying, there’s a LOT of trans activists who have convinced small children with homophobic parents that it’s OK, their little gay kid isn’t gay, they are just in the wrong body and since we got them early, dosing them full of hormones will be best
(, Wed 30 Jun 2021, 10:09, Reply)
"tarring with nonce brush"?, not you too.?
it seems to be a recurring theme when arguing with thick people that they have difficulty in comprehending that comparative analogies are often limited in scope to single qualities, rather than general associations, in this case what constitutes mental illness and what doesn't.
If I'd meant that transpeople are like paedophiles I would have said it. still, I'll know next time im dealing with people who say "duh, he said 'paedophile'. he done think they're all paedophiles". I'll leave you all to it
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cumquat may will not be commenting further on the allegations, Wed 30 Jun 2021, 11:54,
Reply)
I know what you meant
And I can see the analogy that you’re making, and that you aren’t drawing a moral equivalence or anything like that. The point is though that in making a persuasive argument, it’s best to avoid giving people something to grasp to in lieu of a point, and arguing with trans activists already involves dealing with bad faith and obfuscation, so for me, if the point can be made without a paedophile analogy, so much the better.
As you point out - the opponents in this debate are people who have been convinced that chemical sterilisation of kids is a great idea, and who have somehow never realised that men are physically stronger and faster than women,. Thick people are the opponents
(, Wed 30 Jun 2021, 13:52, Reply)
well, if I can't use a good paedo analogy in B3ta, where else?
but I appreciate the explanation
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cumquat may will not be commenting further on the allegations, Wed 30 Jun 2021, 16:05,
Reply)
Transitioning before puberty
Does not make ones body “less alien” and you are peddling dangerous nonsense that isn’t based on evidence if you are suggesting that pre-teens are capable of making life changing decisions that will impact on their reproductive capacity and sexual function before they are able to fully understand what that means in practice.
And if you look at what the whistleblowers at the Tavistock are saying, and demonstrating, a LOT of the kids presenting with dysphoria are young gay kids bullied endlessly for being effeminate boys or manly girls, with groups like the despicable Mermaids pathologising gender non conformity and putting them on a pathway to lifelong medical treatment when many studies show that dysphoria often desists with puberty.
Do you really think that Caitlin Jenner and Kellie Maloney were the type of kids that;d show up on Mermaids radar? late transitioners and children with dysphoria/gender non conforming kids have not been shown to be the same demographic at different stages of life
(, Tue 29 Jun 2021, 9:56, Reply)
If they're teens,
it's not before puberty, really, is it?
What you're talking about is pumping young children full of drugs, for the sake of... well, what? Note that this is not consequence-free: male and female puberty are both developmentally important.
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Enzyme is powered by sunlight, Tue 29 Jun 2021, 10:02,
Reply)
Kids of course can't legally consent to anything, so this has to be with the support of the family and medical professionals
And of course there are detailed guidelines on exactly how this sort of transition should be handled. It's not uncontrolled access to dangerous drugs. These hormones are available to combat baldness - far more trivial than gender identity.
wpath.org/publications/soc
Again, I'm not a spokesperson, I'm just bringing up the arguments that trans people have made for themselves.
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Invisible Wizard - 13th Level Scrote, Tue 29 Jun 2021, 11:01,
Reply)
WPATH is hardly disinterested.
And I do think that there are big, big questions about a medical professional who is willing to make a physiological intervention to "treat" something that is fundamentally non-physiological.
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Enzyme is powered by sunlight, Tue 29 Jun 2021, 11:11,
Reply)
Plastic surgery for low self esteem and self worth is pretty suspect too.
Ive encountered a few people who were transitioning (on the Harry Benjamin protocol) who were between 30-60+. They weren't kids who had identity issues.
It depends on what you deem physiological or indeed psychological and where the line is drawn, if one exists. Psychiatric drugs often have nasty side effects, check out Risperidone, lithium, duloxetine, etc.
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FeralCatMan Long ads need comments sections, Tue 29 Jun 2021, 12:14,
Reply)
Family can’t reasonably consent
To deciding that a pre-teen’s assertions about something as intangible and nebulous as “gender identity” should be enough to put them on a medical pathway to irreversible changes to their body, future reproductive capacity and sexual function.
Even less so when you listen to the Tavistock whistleblowers, many of whom say that one of the biggest drivers in gender dysphoric children are parents worrying they have a gay kid and being led towards a pathological approach
(, Tue 29 Jun 2021, 13:28, Reply)
Ok, I’ll bite.
Imagine being a cisgender woman. You’ve spent much of your adolescence and adulthood training to compete against other cisgender women. You’re good at your chosen discipline, let’s say weightlifting, you win and you’re very competitive.
Then one day a trans woman comes along. She was a man for thirty four years before transitioning, and her long term naturally elevated levels of testosterone as a result of her then manhood were hugely beneficial to her physicality vis à vis competitive weightlifting. She enjoyed some success as a male weightlifter, but now she’s a woman, she’s unbeatable.
If this imaginary cisgender woman said “Hold on, this doesn’t seem very fair” it seems to me you’d say something along the lines of “This is how things are now, and if you’ve got a problem with any of this, I’ll call you a fascist.”
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Prufrock Lucifer, son of the morning!, Mon 28 Jun 2021, 21:13,
Reply)
No, I wouldn't call her a fascist.
There's a big difference as I already said between late transitioning women and people who have managed to go through puberty in their affirmed gender.
Being a trans woman isn't a magical advantage over cis women. You've still got to be good. Transitioning is hard on the body. It takes a lot of recovery time.
Anyway, we don't need hypotheticals. Let's watch the Olympics and see how the New Zealand weigh lifter does in her rounds. From memory, she's not the best in her class, despite being trans.
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Invisible Wizard - 13th Level Scrote, Mon 28 Jun 2021, 21:22,
Reply)
“Anti trans sentiment tends to come from right leaning sources as part of a wider political agenda.”
“ No, I wouldn't call her a fascist.”
Trans women are women.
Your capacity for doublethink is impressive.
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Prufrock Lucifer, son of the morning!, Mon 28 Jun 2021, 21:35,
Reply)
Calling someone fascist is a very different thing to saying
- that anti trans rhetoric tends to be from right wing folks.
I certainly don't call Boris Johnson or Rees-Mogg fascists, but they are undeniably right wing.
Besides, when I wrote the bit about right wing agenda being anti trans, I was summarising Jessie Gender's video essay as requested, not trying to state some absolute fact.
My own opinion is that we should do our best to avoid being hurtful - making crap jokes about trans sportswomen hurts real people - and leave the international sports policy to the committees. I'm happy to say I support trans sports women, but I get it that this is a nuanced thing.
But making fun of trans folk? Nah, fuck off. That's for shits.
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Invisible Wizard - 13th Level Scrote, Mon 28 Jun 2021, 21:47,
Reply)
We’ve been laughing at gender bending for years.
From dramatic irony drag in Shakespeare, to Lemon and Curtis in Some Like it Hot, The Two Ronnies et al in the seventies, French and Saunders as two old gammons, Kathy Burke’s Perry, The League of Gentlemen, Lily Savage on Blankety Blank to mention a few.
It’s going to take a long time to break all those funny bones. But sticks and stones could do it.
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Prufrock Lucifer, son of the morning!, Mon 28 Jun 2021, 22:14,
Reply)
At or with?
Also there's a subtle difference between being right wing and fascist. I'm not sure if you made that argument in bad faith or if you're really that thick. I realise that's a bit rich coming from me.
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brb man-child cuck corporate supplicant fuck, Mon 28 Jun 2021, 22:34,
Reply)
At, with, whatever.
Ultimately this has nothing to do with ‘right leaning’ agendas and conspiracies, as much as the trans lobby bleat that it does. It comes down to cold hard facts of science, specifically biology.
For a long time we have accepted that climate change dialogue must follow the science. More recently we have accepted that governments must follow the science in their responses to Covid. Yet in the trans debate, science can get the fuck out. Cancel all who disagree.
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Prufrock Lucifer, son of the morning!, Mon 28 Jun 2021, 22:51,
Reply)
You've missed the major point in Jessie's video -
Early transitioning for trans girls through hormone treatments avoids creating a male physique during puberty. This too is science.
The sports discussion is part of a wider issue that trans people are not being treated the way they want. This is itself part of a wider issue that conservative groups tend to deny the rights of non-cis, non-hetero people.
One doesn't need to claim there's a conspiracy when there are actual legislative processes going on to deny those rights. It's not a conspiracy, it's an open fact.
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Invisible Wizard - 13th Level Scrote, Tue 29 Jun 2021, 8:01,
Reply)
You've missed the most major point of childhood development.
They are, by nature, extremely whimsical and capricious. The idea that an 8 year old can give informed consent to be given puberty blockers is crazy. These drugs irreversibly change a person for life. If they're not allowed tattoos before they're 18, why should they be allowed puberty blockers?
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Prufrock Lucifer, son of the morning!, Tue 29 Jun 2021, 13:40,
Reply)
Prufrock is spot on
…and I don’t often agree with him.
Add into that that regressive parents can and do enforce gender norms, and an 8 year old (or younger) being told that their interests are “not appropriate for boys” who also hears that it’s the case that some boys are really girls, might reach the understanding that a boy who likes feminine stuff is a girl.
Genuine progressive thought says this;
“a girl is a child with a female body and any personality”
the current extreme form of trans activism adopted by Mermaids and the like says
“A girl is a child with a female personality and any body”
And you can see them as being just different phrasing’s of the same thing, if not for the fact that Mermaids and trans activism in general follows it up with “oh, but the body then has to match the personality to avoid distress in later life, so hormones and a pathway to surgery it is”
(, Tue 29 Jun 2021, 14:08, Reply)
Here's one of your right-wingers
(Possibly NSFW due to text sweariness)
www.glaad.org/gap/germaine-greer
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An Egg ,D, Mon 28 Jun 2021, 23:10,
Reply)
Those cunts will be burning books next.
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Prufrock Lucifer, son of the morning!, Mon 28 Jun 2021, 23:14,
Reply)
Avoid being hurtful?
OK then, what about crapping on the hard-earned achievements of top-level women competitors - how is that not hurtful to the women? I'm not a fan of women's efforts being wiped out by a mediocre ex-man - why don't women get to have a say in this, since they are the ones who will see their hard work erased
(, Tue 29 Jun 2021, 6:11, Reply)
Gavin Hubbard already bumped a woman from her spot on the NZ team
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An Egg ,D, Tue 29 Jun 2021, 1:42,
Reply)
Being a *male* is an advantage over female people
Your argument “you still have to be good” misses the point.
The issue with trans women in female sport isn’t “trans women will win all the gold medals”, much as that’s a convenient little strawman with which to pretend that the opposition view has no merit.
The point is twofold.
Firstly - and the point most obvious but least relevant; almost every elite male athlete would immediately become the world’s best if measures against female achievement, and would still retain most of that advantage after hormone treatment. These are your “gold medal” trans women, but the most unlikely to actually happen
Secondly, and most importantly; an *average to good* male athlete if they transition, still retains the same percentage of male advantage as elite athletes do.
In practice, as with Laurel Hubbard, this results in - whatever the placing, whether second or 10th or 100th - a mediocre male athlete supplanting an exceptional female.
That’s evidence based and obvious yo everyone - I daresay that five years ago nobody here would’ve thought such a statement was controversial.
I’m amazed that so few people see the most glaring moral/ethical issue though; all sport should be about striving to be the best we can be. Where is the integrity in sport if 98% of competitors are striving to improve, be the best they can, the strongest, the fittest, the fastest, while a small group of people of the sex with an advantage are attempting to *mitigate* their advantage just enough to make it all look fair?
(, Tue 29 Jun 2021, 9:46, Reply)
They play according to their sex, which is material reality and inescapable, rather than a bare feeling. Sure, transitioning doesn't create advantages - but puberty does.
None of this is anti-trans, and none of it is right-wing. There is nothing right-wing about pointing out that sex is real, immutable, and important, and that just social structures would account for that.
Neither is anybody "attacking" anyone's identity (whatever the hell that means). Everyone should be able to live their life as they see fit, constrained only by considerations of others being able to do so under fair conditions too.
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Enzyme is powered by sunlight, Tue 29 Jun 2021, 9:30,
Reply)
FWIW...
I do agree that the matter has been coopted and weaponised by the right, and that's regrettable and a distortion of what's really in play.
But the fact that a position can be coopted by the right does not mean that it's a right-wing position, any more than Nick Griffin's crocodile tears about halal slaughter mean that animal welfare concerns are right-wing.
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Enzyme is powered by sunlight, Tue 29 Jun 2021, 9:49,
Reply)
That's a bloody good point well made.
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brb man-child cuck corporate supplicant fuck, Tue 29 Jun 2021, 16:48,
Reply)
What does playing according to "sex" mean?
Do you think male heavyweight boxers should be competing against male bantamweights, for example?
(, Tue 29 Jun 2021, 9:52, Reply)
No. Of course not.
But you can have weight classifications within sex classifications.
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Enzyme is powered by sunlight, Tue 29 Jun 2021, 9:53,
Reply)
My point is that boxing already recognises that a single category of "male" is not sufficient to categorise competitors. Perhaps "playing according to sex" is also too simplistic for other sports, and they need to consider ways of categorising competitors in a more granular fashion.
(, Tue 29 Jun 2021, 10:37, Reply)
Simply because sex isn’t sufficient
As the *only* category, does not mean that it isn’t the most important initial category. And in fact, as everyone who hasn’t lost their minds knows, it is.
I’m not meaning this to sound hyperbolic, it’s simply the truth of what you’re suggesting; if boxers were separated by weight class and not sex, what you’d have is this; lots of dead female boxers.
(, Tue 29 Jun 2021, 10:42, Reply)
It's perfectly sufficient in most contexts.
In some, it's not. That's why we divide boxers by weight.
But the natural range of abilities within sex classes is dwarfed by the differences between them; and that's why competition within sex classes is (by and large) fair, and between them is (by and large) not.
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Enzyme is powered by sunlight, Tue 29 Jun 2021, 10:45,
Reply)
Thanks for this
I realise I need more education on the subject.
(
fred zeppelin (Taylor's version), Tue 29 Jun 2021, 9:52,
Reply)