I think cumquat is actually getting at something that is a very important, but completely overlooked, point.
The whole debate is centred entirely on the transitioner. How they feel, who they think they are, etc. Ultimately though, they'll never get what they want unless others genuinely perceive them how they wish to be perceived. It's all very well chanting the double think slogan 'trans women are women' but if they are perceived as trans, then that's how they'll be perceived. Sure, we can play along, indeed we arguably ought to and use pronouns accordingly etc, but if they are still perceived as trans, that's all they'll ever be.
If a bald man has a comb over he has one because he wants to be perceived as having a full head of hair. He doesn't though. He's bald, and everyone knows it. He can get a wig if he likes. If he gets a good one he may well fool everyone. But it doesn't change the fact that he's bald. You may think this is a superficial analogy but it's not. Looks and appearance and how they are perceived, are by definition, superficial.
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Prufrock Lucifer, son of the morning!, Sun 8 Aug 2021, 11:32,
Reply)
I think you’re right
It comes down to that identity is a two way street, not an assertion. I can’t see trans women as women. Not because I hate trans people, but because I’ve not heard a non-sexist definition of “woman” that includes male people. So if someone’s identity and expectation is “I am a trans woman. I expect to not be treated disrespectfully because of that”, then I can go with that - I’m not being told to alter my perceptions or deny reality. But if someone says “I’m a trans woman, and as trans women are women, I expect you to consider me to be a woman in the same way that you consider all women to be women, and that includes being entitled to access all spaces and services intended for female people”, then I’ll maintain that someone’s assertions about their identity dont actually mean I have to believe them or affirm them, and sometimes I might have to say “no”
The combover analogy is interesting, because even though it sounds facetious, in your example, the balding man is (in relative terms) “oppressed”, while those with a full head of hair are the privileged.
This is a reversal of the dynamic between trans women and women; in which male people claim to be the most oppressed female people.
Edit: this is partly why the issue is so divided. Well meaning “allies” love to show how great they are by telling trans women how pretty they look. They’re treated like babies, not women. And organisations are telling people that falling short of fawning indulgence is hatred. And that makes for a world that feels unsafe.
(, Sun 8 Aug 2021, 11:39, Reply)
When you add to the mix all the new genders things get even more counter intuitive.
If someone identifies as ‘intersex’ or ‘bigender’ that’s all good and well. But they cannot expect people to know or deduce things like that, and so have no right to be upset when they don’t. They can tell people, and out of courtesy people should use their chosen pronouns, but that’s all it is, a courtesy. The assertion that it’s a fact is inane and incorrect. If there is such a thing as society, we ought to try and belong to it in some way, not belligerently keep screeching ‘I am different! Respect me! Failure to do so is evil!’
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Prufrock Lucifer, son of the morning!, Sun 8 Aug 2021, 14:58,
Reply)
Pronouns. I've never understood the relevance.
Bear with me here...
Someone knocks on the door, I answer it and the wife might ask "what do they want?" There is therefore an established pronoun for use when we don't know the gender of the person in question.
When you are actually speaking to someone though, you don't address them with gendered pronouns, we say e.g. what do you want?
You only need gendered pronouns when talking ABOUT someone, not in their presence, so all the fuss must be people taking offence on behalf of someone else, so how can someone actually be 'misgendered'?
(
da5id <YOUR SIG HERE>, Sun 8 Aug 2021, 14:40,
Reply)
Sir is not a pronoun, it’s a common noun, but in terms of linguistic and communicative function it serves much the the same purpose as a pronon.
“Put your knickers back on sir, or you’ll get skid marks on your dress.”
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Prufrock Lucifer, son of the morning!, Sun 8 Aug 2021, 15:04,
Reply)
The significance of pronouns
Is control. It puts you on the back foot and makes you feel slightly disorientated you use language at odds with your perceptions.
Which of these sounds more reasonable?
1: She should not compete in the female category in the Olympics
2: He should not compete in the female category in the Olympics
(, Sun 8 Aug 2021, 15:15, Reply)
I've made a similar point, but not as nicely put
I don't mind calling trannies women and using the right pronoun, but it's because it's polite and no skin off my nose to be accommodating. Id call someone napoleon if really meant a lot to them. But it doesn't alter how I perceive them, which is usually as a man who had grown up a man and had all these male experiences, and now wants to emulate what there own interpretation of what they think a women is. Now, this also doesn't bother me or make me think they're a bad person (though they could also be an arsehole). their experiences tend to make engaging dinner conversation, and their version of a women is often nicer than many women I've met, as they're trying harder. I have noticed in those I've interacted with that you don't get many trannies that try to emulate hard bossy margaret thatcher women types, perhaps if you want to be a sheila what's the point in being a mannnish one? but I know more brazilian trannies than English ones, and the big drag queens I used to see around st kilda in melbourne when I was at uni could drink me under the table. But there something theatre about the whole thing, a sort of shared conceit, though there are in other aspects of life, I suppose
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cumquat may will not be commenting further on the allegations, Sun 8 Aug 2021, 15:10,
Reply)
Here’s a question
If “non binary” isn’t about stereotypes, why doesn’t the fact that I’ve spent 6 of the last ten years working as a carer in a 95% female workforce mean that I am not “cis” - why would my identity be beyond question if I demonstrated it with hair dye but not when it’s about having actual direct experienced for extended periods of time of a context/point of view that is usually experienced by women?
(, Sun 8 Aug 2021, 15:26, Reply)
I'm having trouble parsing this sentence, what with a triple negative and all. could you simplify it a bit
at least until I have my first coffee
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cumquat may will not be commenting further on the allegations, Sun 8 Aug 2021, 23:47,
Reply)
And that’s the issue
Trans activism takes the courtesy, and turns it into a fundamental assumption. Granting that courtesy earns one a short term boost in being seen as kind, but once you’re in, you’re expected to be all the way in. Once you’re using those pronouns, if you articulate an argument that in some circumstances sex matters, you’ll be asked “but how do you square that with your apparently inclusive stance? Don’t you believe trans women are women?”
Or if you refer to a trans rapist as “he”, on the basis that a rapist isn’t doing much to create the impression that he’s a woman, you’ll be told that you’re gatekeeping womanhood, and that if recognising trans women as women is dependent on behaviour, you never believed it. And are therefore a bigot.
That’s why I’ve decided to be a conscientious objector to preferred pronouns, and make exceptions only where I consider it appropriate (while understanding that if that is a problem for some, we’re unlikely to get on)
(, Sun 8 Aug 2021, 15:38, Reply)
Lots of assumptions and criticism of opinions you imagine imaginary people will have.
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brb man-child cuck corporate supplicant fuck, Sun 8 Aug 2021, 16:04,
Reply)
this is fair point, people are always getting worked up about things that don't really affect them
I think there's some tricky questions around sport, but it doesn't affect me, not being a female olympic hopeful. and there's a live US issue around trannies in womens prisons. basically a couple of trannies were put in a womans prison and then started raping the inmates, who then took the prison service all the way to the supreme court. the judge said it was difficult balancing the rights of trannies to be treated as women, with the rights of female prisoners to safety, but recently ruled on the trannies side. Now I disagree, but again this doesn't affect me, and even if I was to campaign for prison reform, there's a lot bigger fish to fry than that one, especially in the states
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cumquat may will not be commenting further on the allegations, Sun 8 Aug 2021, 23:38,
Reply)
And have you met anyone in the real world to
conscientiously object to yet?
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monkeon schmonkeon, Sun 8 Aug 2021, 19:28,
Reply)
Yes
Absolutely.
Not that it’s not a sensitive thing to navigate, but I do maintain that I won’t demonstrate belief to a thing I don’t believe in
(, Sun 8 Aug 2021, 22:00, Reply)
What do you do when
someone you know is getting married and you don't believe it will last?
Don't go to the wedding or stand up and object?
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monkeon schmonkeon, Sun 8 Aug 2021, 22:36,
Reply)
People getting married
Doesn’t ask anything of me.
People telling me what I have to perceive them as, does.
(, Mon 9 Aug 2021, 7:57, Reply)
It is asking you to spend lots of money
on a boring day out. It is pretending to be happy for them, when you think it is a mistake. If you are an atheist and they marry in a church, it is performing in a religious ceremony.
It is physically demonstrating a belief you don't believe in.
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monkeon schmonkeon, Mon 9 Aug 2021, 9:44,
Reply)
If you are an atheist and they marry in a church, it is performing in a religious ceremony
You seem to be taking someone else's special day and saying "but what about meeeeee?".
If they're friends then go along and play the part. Nobody is asking you to believe in any of this shit. Half the people there don't. And if you can't find a way of enjoying yourself at the reception then just don't go. It costs them a fuckload to cater to you, so don't go and act the miserable teenager.
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evil_andy Stick stick stick stick sticky sticky stick stick, Mon 9 Aug 2021, 20:41,
Reply)
I do go along with it. As you say, it's only polite.
Using preferred pronouns is also polite.
I was just curious where someone who "won’t demonstrate belief to a thing I don’t believe in" stands on the issue.
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monkeon schmonkeon, Mon 9 Aug 2021, 21:21,
Reply)
Both things are considered “polite”to do
However attending a wedding is not akin to using preferred pronouns, as preferred pronouns can often lead to a situation where they make useful language difficult or impossible - and in fact, that’s the point.
Perhaps people shouldn’t invest so much meaning in the perceptions of others?
(, Tue 10 Aug 2021, 7:01, Reply)
Drag is another thing.
I’m not drag phobic. On occasion I find drag acts entertaining and engaging. If that’s what people want to do, they should do it. However I am acutely uncomfortable with the modern trend to celebrate drag to the point of reverence. In essence drag takes aspects of the stereotype of femininity, such as eye-catching frocks and shoes, elaborate barnets and make up, and ramps them up to the extreme. The worst kinds of female behaviour, the catty bitchiness, the fickle whimsicality, are held up as the template. It’s at best a satirical parody (that is not a tautology) of femininity, at worst it’s a hateful and grotesque caricature. It seems to me just another way for men to be misogynistic, yet they’re lauded for it. That really annoys me, because I like women.
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Prufrock Lucifer, son of the morning!, Sun 8 Aug 2021, 16:18,
Reply)
I've always wanted to see a
drag king do an act based on the negative male stereotype of a Top Gear banter wanker.
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monkeon schmonkeon, Sun 8 Aug 2021, 16:55,
Reply)
