Nothing about them without them
Sophie speaks about the validity of "trans debate".
To paraphrase Stonewall's successful slogan: "some people are trans, get over it".
(
Invisible Wizard - 10th Level Nerf-herder, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 9:24,
Reply)
Nothing about this video in particular,
But can I just say, 99.9% of the time I don’t watch, or read, stuff on b3ta links for opinions.
Edit: and just to make sure there is a fun link or two
youtu.be/UtkeIV3rsZI
youtu.be/c0RkD-0bnMo
(
Thrill_My_Chinchilla is old and unimproved, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 9:28,
Reply)
Oh god, ^this^
I've lost two fingers scrolling past cunts lecturing each other on their personal opinions that they seem to think everyone else is fascinated by.
(, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 10:35, Reply)
As a cunt,
Who also self ID's a cunt, I am offended by this.
All I want is cunt-only spaces.
(, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 11:07, Reply)
It is a problem
Twitter for example makes everyone come across a self promoting cunt. Just being there makes you look like a cunt even if you're not in real life
(
Mudface The web isn't callipygian, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 11:21,
Reply)
But just being there DOES make you a cunt.
(
brb Learn Ukrainian and prepare for a referendum, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 14:06,
Reply)
You only gone and fucking jinxed it
Thanks a lot
(
Fadgebadger (1 like), Sat 14 Aug 2021, 16:11,
Reply)
Yeah, sorry.
Genuinely.
But I'll not stop till I stop seeing anti-trans shit here. It's not enough for me to ignore it and disagree in silence.
(
Invisible Wizard - 10th Level Nerf-herder, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 11:50,
Reply)
So you're on a one mxn crusade to change the minds of every transphobic beta member? Good luck, pal.
Just ignore them and move on with your life. Some people are anti-trans. Get over it.
(, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 12:02, Reply)
No, I'm just giving trans folk a voice by posting their own answers to transphobic commentary
Ignoring evil is not an option
(
Invisible Wizard - 10th Level Nerf-herder, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 12:25,
Reply)
Evil is a bit strong, no?
Ignorance, maybe. But you know what they say - you can't reason somebody out of something they didn't reason themselves into.
(, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 12:28, Reply)
I'm using "evil" here because I see the anti-trans position as fundamentally a human rights issue
Just as I would call anti-Semitism, or white supremacy evil.
But don't get me wrong - I don't believe that anti-trans people are evil in themselves. Evil is an activity, not a state.
I like your point about non-rational positions, but it's a bit depressing, and I'll not give up just because it seems difficult.
(
Invisible Wizard - 10th Level Nerf-herder, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 12:50,
Reply)
Keep at it.
Bigots need to be told they're bigots. They can't work it out for themselves.
(
brb Learn Ukrainian and prepare for a referendum, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 14:08,
Reply)
have you ever considered the possibility that you might be wrong in some of your assertions?
rather than to what degree of evilness those who disagree with you possess. you probably think you're on the side of right because you're well-intentioned and empathetic to this one group, but plenty of people have done awful things throughout history believing themselves similar.
There's plenty of examples of competing rights in this world, and few without consequence. The rights of walkers to free access to trails can compete with rights of motorbike riders and the rights of landholders. The right to assert a change of identity under law can compete with the rights of women to have segregated and safe spaces, the rights of prisoners, the rights of other citizens to assert their own interpretation and labelling of the gender of someone they interact with, the rights of sports competitors. Your "everyone who doesn't agree to all the rights asserted by this one group is evil, because I know the truth" sounds a terribly intolerant starting point to me in a complex issue
(
cumquat may will not be commenting further on the allegations, Sun 15 Aug 2021, 1:11,
Reply)
I’m not anti-trans, but I am anti-lies.
Trans women are not women, trans women are trans women. The slogan ‘Trans women are women’ is a self defeating logical fallacy. I’m sorry if you think that statement is anti-trans or evil, but it’s not, it’s just basic medical science.
Anyway, I’d love to stay and bicker, but I must go and pick up my new hoover, which cost more than my first car. What progress we have made in a quarter of a century!
P.S. That vid was about Hillsborough, or at least as much of the angry rant I could bear was.
(
Prufrock Lucifer, son of the morning!, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 13:23,
Reply)
The Hillsborough reference was a frame for talking about the lies that the press peddle
Your position that gender is entirely a sex characteristic is not shared by the medical profession - here's the BMA's statement on the matter.
www.bma.org.uk/media/3584/bma-submission-reform-of-the-gender-recognition-act.pdf
Have fun with you new vacuum. Inflation is crazy, isn't it? My first car was 50 quid (+150 quid to get it roadworthy). I spent that much on fuel last time I filled up.
(
Invisible Wizard - 10th Level Nerf-herder, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 13:43,
Reply)
I think his position is that Trans Women generally have an X and a Y chromosome, whereas a biological woman has two X's.
(, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 13:49, Reply)
X & Y chromosomes are not completely binary
Besides which, sex is not gender:
www.coe.int/en/web/gender-matters/sex-and-gender
www.ons.gov.uk/economy/environmentalaccounts/articles/whatisthedifferencebetweensexandgender/2019-02-21
This has been fairly long established in law.
(
Invisible Wizard - 10th Level Nerf-herder, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 14:16,
Reply)
I'm well aware that sex is not gender.
I've said about as much as I'm willing to say on this subject. As others have mentioned, it's getting a bit fucking tired now. Its such a complex topic with so many facets that very few people are going to be singing off completely the same hymn sheet. Likewise, it's a very emotionally charged subject for some folk - so unless your subjective opinions on the matter align perfectly, there's always going to be fervent discourse.
I'm all for Trans Rights. And I'm all for individuals having the freedom to identify/dress/present as whatever gender and sex they feel most comfortable with. But at the end of the day, are we living in a society that should or could allow Trans-Women the same freedoms that biological women have? Not even close. Is that a bad thing? Probably. But we're at least a generation away from making any real progress on that issue.
(, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 14:42, Reply)
Thanks for the support, seriously.
The kids of my friends seems to be quite happy with trans rights, they've got no problem with trans men or women in their spaces.
It'd be nice to think that the equality in rights and practice that trans people deserve is starting right now - if it takes that generation to settle down, that'll be sad, but I hope at least we're on the route.
(
Invisible Wizard - 10th Level Nerf-herder, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 15:12,
Reply)
That’s just it though.
As you say, the kids have no problem with trans men or women, nor should they, nor do I. The only significant problem I have with the whole thing is crystallised in that slogan I mentioned. Just don’t tell me a trans woman is a woman. That’s doublethink. War is peace, freedom is slavery, ignorance is strength.
Update on how well the hoover sucks coming soon.
(
Prufrock Lucifer, son of the morning!, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 15:40,
Reply)
So you've got the fleshlight vacuum attachment then.
(
FeralCatMan Unusual disease collector., Sat 14 Aug 2021, 20:18,
Reply)
I've done a bit of online gaming in lockdown to pass the time
and based on that I've come to the conclusion that most people under 30 are horrible cunts, the younger they are the worse
(
cumquat may will not be commenting further on the allegations, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 16:37,
Reply)
maybe it's just the gaming community, rather that the general populace, granted
but it doesn't exactly make me think the next generation is going to be some chill tolerant adults. they'll just pretend to be for the opportunities it offers to be sanctimonious and mean. i don't say anything, I've got kids sleeping and what am I gonna do that that their parents haven't, but I observe the little shits
(
cumquat may will not be commenting further on the allegations, Sun 15 Aug 2021, 1:20,
Reply)
What about the rights of women and girls
who have a right to dignity and safety?
Yes, be who you want, just like everyone else, but please don't ask for the right to make others uncomfortable because of that
Do you believe male-sexed people have a right to undress and shower in communal changing rooms with teenage girls?
How does a girl in a changing room know that someone who enters in possession of a dick is or is not an interloper?
I don't give a flying one what people want to be or who they want to fuck, but I don't like it when it starts it starts to interfere with people's lives who did not want for nor ask for the consequences of those life choices. It seems to me that women are the ones being marginalised and forgotten here.
(, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 14:27, Reply)
Trans people deserve not to be treated as sex criminals.
I believe that gay men and boys are entitled to change in the same room as straight men and boys, and similarly for gay women in amongst straight women. We generally don't consider this to be an issue, because most of us have stopped thinking that being gay makes you a pervert or sex pest.
That's my own answer.
Now, I'll quote a long bit by a trans activist group, because I always want to use their own words to argue for their rights:
If we legislate to police gender in toilets, then how and at what point do we decide who is and isn’t a woman? Will all facilities require a gender checking attendant? Do tall, broad or deeper-voiced women face being challenged for ID to prove their gender? Will women with short hair who dress in traditionally-male clothing be asked to prove their sex? Will a woman be forced to show a stranger their body to pass a gender test? What, precisely, would happen if a woman were judged, in one way or another, to be a man? Will she be arrested or fined or removed from the premises? Will all women need to carry a mandatory ‘woman certificate’ or will only trans women be forced to carry proof that they have a GRC? None of this sounds remotely progressive and none of it sounds like the empowerment of women.
(mermaidsuk.org.uk/news/safety-and-dignity/)
There's also the legal aspect of deny spaces to trans people: Here's an article by an Oxford lecturer about trans exclusion and the law:
ohrh.law.ox.ac.uk/gym-use-and-changing-rooms-the-illegality-and-chilling-effect-of-transgender-segregation/
(
Invisible Wizard - 10th Level Nerf-herder, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 14:52,
Reply)
You didn't answer the question
How does a girl in a changing room know that someone who enters who has a dick is or is not an interloper? Where is their comfort and dignity in those situations?
(, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 14:57, Reply)
She doesn't know, of course.
How does she know that a person in that same space who has a vagina isn't a pervert or predator or whatever?
Assuming that trans people are sex pests is not helpful, and we should get over it - in just the same way we long ago got over thinking that gay people might be sex pests.
(
Invisible Wizard - 10th Level Nerf-herder, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 15:07,
Reply)
You are royally missing the point here
Put yourself in the position of that girl.
Into the changing room wanders a guy with his dick out. What is she to think in that moment? Oh fuck, here's a bloke who's wandered in to sexually assail us, or here's a trans-person of no threat whatsoever?
In that moment you are exposing that girl to threat and harm, and my point is, why would you intentionally expose a girl to harm?
Your argument is absolute bollocks, by the way, and you know it. The conclusion of your argument is that any bloke should be allowed in women and girl's safe spaces, and fuck the consequences.
(, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 15:11, Reply)
But you'd allow lesbians in the female dressing room, right?
Your argument seems to be based on the believe that everyone with a cock is out to rape women.
(
Tusk knows where you live, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 15:35,
Reply)
Utterly wrong
What I suggested is that neither you nor I nor anyone else can tell me how a girl in that situation would react if someone walked in with their dick out. The point is what are they to think? In their safe space, here's a guy with his dick out. Do they think - here's someone up to no good, or here's someone of no harm whatsoever? The conclusion to your line of thinking would be - naked men in girls and women's safe spaces? Yeah, fuck it, can't see anything wrong with that. Where is the consideration for the wishes, comfort and dignity of the girls and women here? Girls and women see naked women in their spaces all the time, but not naked men, and it seems to me that you don't have a problem with their shock, comfort and dignity being compromised
(, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 15:52, Reply)
Some people are uncomfortable with public nudity altogether, I don't think that's healthy.
Meanwhile in Scandinavia, people are outraged when people enter unisex nude spaces without being fully nude.
(
brb Learn Ukrainian and prepare for a referendum, Sun 15 Aug 2021, 15:47,
Reply)
If you took 20 random guys, and let each one in the women's changing room
you'd be unlikely to get any rapists, but I'd put money on at least 1 of them being weird and pervy and making all the women feel really uncomfortable in a way they hardly ever get with other women. probably more.
And you'll also get what I call the priest-effect. I don't think being a priest makes you paedo, but I reckon nonces seek out the priesthood because it gives them access to young boys.
Transwoman won't make you a sex offender or rapist, but if transwomen, like priests, get easy access to women when they're segregated and vulnerable, you will get some fuckers that become transwomen because it offers this. Like there's some in the US who think their jail time will be easier as trans in a womens prison (along with some who turned into rapists). And the BMA's proposal I had a quick look at is to make it even easier, basically signing a stat dec to change gender rather have a psyche assessment
(
cumquat may will not be commenting further on the allegations, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 15:52,
Reply)
You too are missing my point
It's about the comfort and dignity of the women and girls. They see naked women in their safe spaces all the time, but not naked men.Are you really suggesting here that people with dicks should be allowed in their safe spaces and fuck their wishes, comfort and dignity here? I'm dismayed at the encroachment on women's safe spaces
(, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 15:55, Reply)
no I got that, and agree
I was just pointing out that there are more common lesser behavioural issues than rape in their "so you think all transwomen are rapists"
(
cumquat may will not be commenting further on the allegations, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 16:08,
Reply)
Would you be comfortable with and adult (who appears to be) male walking around with their cock out infront of your adolescent daughter in the swimming pool changing rooms?
Would their reassurance that they identify as female be enough to alleviate your concern?
(, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 16:09, Reply)
do they have a boner?
(
cumquat may will not be commenting further on the allegations, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 16:10,
Reply)
then I'm out
(
cumquat may will not be commenting further on the allegations, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 16:28,
Reply)
as a serious point, sexual and family violence and harassment is strongly gendered
it's mostly male on female violence. this is the reason why you see lots of women's refuges for family violence, but very few for men.
So are you positing that when a man identifies as a woman, i.e. a male to female transgender, that choice changes their risk of committing gendered violence?
it's an interesting debate as it cuts to the heart of the difference between identity and reality. Presumably other gendered risks don't change with identity, like the higher risk women have of getting multiple sclerosis. Even though there have been some high publicity rapes in womens prison committed by male to female transgender, I'd doubt whether there enough data to answer this definitively. And as barst said, it's interesting that you're willing to dismiss the right of women to identify as different from trans people, while supporting the rights of transpeople to identify as different from their birth sex
(
cumquat may will not be commenting further on the allegations, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 15:24,
Reply)
Okay
I cannot believe a single opinion has ever been changed by an argument within links though.
(
Thrill_My_Chinchilla is old and unimproved, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 16:48,
Reply)
Some of mine have.
(
brb Learn Ukrainian and prepare for a referendum, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 19:01,
Reply)
Is debate no longer acceptable?
Should people be disallowed from the discussion of certain topics?
Or is it that only certain people should be allowed to discuss them?
Or is it that discussion is open to everyone so long as there is no deviation from some prescribed consensus?
She does make some pretty good points in isolation, but some of them run counter to each other.
For example, she mentions some Daily Mail article (which I'm not defending by the way) talking about trans people attempting to control the media.
Whatever the veracity of that, it doesn't look great when only 2 minutes earlier she was questioning the validity of debate itself.
(, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 12:50, Reply)
The point being made is that debating trans rights assumes that there is a question of whether trans people should have those rights
Debate counters the idea that trans rights are basic human rights - to live without persecution.
We don't debate or discuss whether Jews should be allowed to practice their religion. We don't debate or discuss whether gay men should be allowed to have sex.
As for certain people being allowed to discuss certain topics - no, it's not about exclusion, it's about including the people who are being discussed in the discussion.
Isn't it ridiculous if discussion about the lives of a group of people didn't include those people themselves?
So that's what I'm doing here. It's not a good thing for a discussion about trans rights to be had without the participation of trans people themselves.
(
Invisible Wizard - 10th Level Nerf-herder, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 13:15,
Reply)
What are we talking about by trans rights though?
There needs to be a definition of what "trans rights" actually encompasses before we can get anywhere.
If we're talking about the rights for basic human needs and participation in society in general, then absolutely there's nothing to debate there.
Trans people deserve to receive service in businesses, to be given due consideration with regards to employment, club membership, and so on.
On a personal level we should show them the same kindness and consideration we would show for anyone else.
But there are some edge cases where there is friction with other people's rights, and how that gets dealt with very much must be the subject of a debate, otherwise we're living in a totalitarian system.
She does makes a good point that certain specific issues which are more contentious, such as sport or bathrooms, get used by the vicious anti-trans lobby as starting points for rallying support.
She's right, they do, and it's sad. Hopefully most people are capable of not conflating those specific issues with the wider issue of basic human rights.
But, that doesn't in any way change the fact that women's sport does have an emerging issue right now that needs to be addressed somehow, or a lot of people are going to be deeply unhappy.
Also, are trans people being excluded from this debate? Maybe I'm missing the point, surely this entire debate stems from trans people standing up and being heard?
Is she saying that trans people aren't represented in the media? That might be true of some older media, fair enough.
But I've seen plenty of trans people themselves making their voices heard, in TV interviews, and online all over the place.
I don't wish to sound dismissive, but as I understand it the debate is happening and plenty of trans people are themselves involved.
(, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 13:27, Reply)
If only there were some way for you to look it up.
(
brb Learn Ukrainian and prepare for a referendum, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 14:10,
Reply)
Well it means different things to different people,
and in different contexts, right?
I can't exactly look up what the person in front of me thinks it means.
I think it's better instead to talk in more specific terms to actually nail down exactly what we mean.
I saw a pretty whacky video with a transgender person attempting to argue that cisgendered people have no right to not find them attractive,
because they had the right to be found attractive.
That's a pretty extreme position which I would assume most people wouldn't agree with, but in a discussion with that person that would be included in trans rights.
So I just think it's best to nail it down precisely first.
(, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 14:17, Reply)
People made the exact same arguments in the 50s
questioning the validity of the civil rights movement in the USA, and justifying the attempted ethnic cleansing of the indigenous population of Australia.
The exact same arguments.
(
brb Learn Ukrainian and prepare for a referendum, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 15:26,
Reply)
Eh? I'm don't believe I follow.
Were you replying to someone else?
What arguments? As far as I'm aware I've not put forward any position or arguments to support it, I'm requesting clarification about the parameters of the discussion.
(, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 15:58, Reply)
I know, you're "Just Asking Questions." JAQin' it, JAQin' it, JAQin' it JAQ.
What do you mean by civil rights? I saw a pretty whacky newsreel with a coloured person attempting to argue that white people have no right to not find them attractive, because "black is beautiful." That's a pretty extreme position which I would assume most people wouldn't agree with, but in a discussion with that person that would be included in civil rights. So I just think it's best to nail it down precisely first.
(
brb Learn Ukrainian and prepare for a referendum, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 16:57,
Reply)
Hang on...
do white people have any right to not find black people attractive in your opinion? Genuinely interested in your response.
Without asking questions, how are you supposed to know what you're even talking about? I'm not interested in talking about a slogan, divorced from any kind of meaningful reality... I want to talk about concrete examples of policies that exist but which infringe upon people's rights... or I want to talk about policies that do not yet exist but which would be good for supporting people's rights.
Am I in favour of people not being discriminated against in the workplace? Absolutely yes. If that's the sort of thing that trans rights is, I'm all aboard.
Am I in favour of every little tweet made by every transgender person in the name of trans rights, becoming the basis of policy unquestioningly? No, because some people have a very bad idea of what rights are.
The details matter.
(, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 17:01, Reply)
If skin colour has any influence on your sexual preferences then you're a horrible racist.
Obviously.
(, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 17:28, Reply)
If you don't see through this fish soaked straw man, you're either taken in by it or arguing in bad faith.
(
brb Learn Ukrainian and prepare for a referendum, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 17:38,
Reply)
Straw man?
I asked you for your opinion, since I wasn't entirely sure what point you were getting at by repeating what I said but replacing gender identity with race. I've not even argued against anything you've said?
Trans rights means different things to different people. I want people to be clear in what people mean when talking about things. I don't want to use some definition from the internet if the person I'm talking to has something else in mind. So I'm asking, what exactly are we talking about.
This isn't even remotely arguing in bad faith, it's respectfully engaging in a discussion. I'm not putting words in anyone's mouth. I'm not intentionally misrepresenting someone else's argument.
(, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 17:52, Reply)
From your response I'm not sure you understand what it is you are doing. Good trolling!
But this rejection of an imaginary demand (to be perceived as beautiful by the people who hate you), it's just not very convincing, sorry. All it says is that you'd like your particular dislike for the unlike to be validated and preserved.
Your stubborn refusal to type "define trans rights" into a search engine is not a rhetorical winner, nor is it particularly endearing. You're signalling ignorance as a virtue.
Your last paragraph can be paraphrased: "it's political correctness gone mad." Another similarly convincing argument.
(
brb Learn Ukrainian and prepare for a referendum, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 17:36,
Reply)
Your paraphrasing
is literally a straw man, and you claim that I'm arguing in bad faith?
I'm pointing out there's lots of takes on what trans rights means, some of which are reasonable, some of which are not, and I want to know what is actually under discussion before discussing it.
If I google trans rights, the first article that comes up is from wikipedia. Would you like me to take the first paragraph or so of that as the working definition of this discussion?
(, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 18:57, Reply)
Do you think that would be a duscussion worth having?
Do you think humanity will benefit from us publishing a discussion where one of the participants chooses to be more ignorant than they need to be?
My paraphrasing of your argument is a straw man by the nature of the source material. I hoped to illustrate how the exact same argument you are making (an argument in the form of JAQing off to muddy the waters) was made 70 years ago by bigots who opposed civil rights for black people.
As if forcing other people to find someone attractive is codified in any form of legislature, declaration of rights, or constitution anywhere in the world.
Nobody is this asinine. Stop it.
Lol duscussion. I'm a subject line typo machine today.
(
brb Learn Ukrainian and prepare for a referendum, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 19:23,
Reply)
Why are you automatically so combative,
as though I'm somehow your enemy?
I'm not opposing anyone's rights, and I don't know why you're so convinced that I am. I don't know what I've said here that would lead you to that conclusion.
If we're looking at the definition of transgender rights which is loosely described in that wikipedia article (which I would essentially interpret as the same rights as everyone else), then I'm all in favour of it. I don't want to live in a world where trans people, who number among my friends, are oppressed and discriminated against simply for how they feel. If we're looking at legislation, I think gender identity should be a protected category alongside race, religion, sex, sexual orientation etc, if it isn't already. No argument from me there.
But if we're taking the definition of transgender rights as described by certain hardline activists and influencers, some of whom have been pretty vocal with their dodgy takes on the matter, then I'm not in favour of what they're saying. I'd just like to know what the definition is in the context of the discussion.
Hence the need for discussion and debate, so we can sort out the reasonable takes from the unreasonable takes. I'm not trying to muddy any waters, I'm trying to reach a consensus on what constitutes the mud, so that we have filtered waters.
There's a pretty wide spectrum of thought on this multifaceted issue, and I picked an extreme far-out opinion as an example that I reckoned we could all agree was mud that could be discarded. I'm not attributing that opinion to anyone here or ascribing to it any importance to the trans rights movement.
(, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 19:38, Reply)
If I take up a contrary position to yours, that puts our ideas in a kind of conflict. I disagree with you, and I enjoy telling you about it.
Hurrah for you:
Not opposing anyone's rights
Interpreting trans rights as 'the same as everyone else's' (Correct!)
Opposing oppression
Supporting trans people as a protected category against hate crimes etc.
Boo for you:
Defending your right to be upset against a pretend threat from, and JAQ over, 'certain hardline activists and influencers'
Doubling down on your daftness by claiming you're trying to 'filter' (or perhaps 'cleanse') out the extreme views on one side by normalising your own
Are you sure you're not deliberately misunderstanding a message of 'trans is beautiful'? Is your right to call trans people ugly actually under threat?
(
brb Learn Ukrainian and prepare for a referendum, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 22:06,
Reply)
You clearly just want to have a fight about something.
Someone had the audacity to ask a few questions for clarification, and from that you appear to have extrapolated some edifice of hatred that has no basis in reality.
You've all but accused me of supporting ethnic cleansing, based on literally fuck all. Come on son.
I pointed out my position, not for some kind of brownie points or congratulations, but because you were completely fabricating some viewpoint and attributing it to me.
Saying "hurray for you", as though I wasn't clearly correcting your unfounded assumptions, is just churlish to be honest.
If someone called you a pedo dog botherer, and then you were to point out that you'd never bothered children or dogs,
what kind of cunt would they have to be to then sarcastically congratulate you like you were saying it to impress and not as a direct refutation.
I don't want to call anyone ugly. But yeah, freedom of expression is constantly under threat, and it's something I believe in strongly.
I think that the idea that debate itself is a problem is a dangerous way of thinking, and I don't think that is a particularly unreasonable view to hold.
The point of that extreme example, which we all here agree is absurd I think, is that in an environment where debate is stifled and discussion silenced,
terrible absurdities have tendency to become reality. Without the ability to debate, how can anyone come to a working consensus on sensible
approaches to safeguard rights, without everything getting derailed by the extremists? And that goes for extremists on all sides.
You need open debate for a society to be capable of agreeing to ignore all the nutters.
(, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 23:12, Reply)
While you clearly want to avoid confronting your prejudices even while you look for them to be validated.
Your 'extreme example' is either a misunderstanding or a lie. Either you're a bit thick, or trolling. Which is it?
Why am I not allowed to congratulate you for reducing your ignorance without being called churlish? Is it because of your paranoia?
Why do I say you're paranoid? You claim your freedom of expression is under constant threat from imaginary liberal bigots, so you have to defend your right to call trans people ugly even if you don't want to. Seems perfectly rational, right?
You are acting as an extremist nutter who you should ignore.
(
brb Learn Ukrainian and prepare for a referendum, Sun 15 Aug 2021, 14:39,
Reply)
My word you're awful.
Freedom of expression is always under threat. The fact that this original video is literally someone objecting to the existence of debate is just one example of this. It's a textbook example of a threat to freedom of expression.
If you want to find the exact extreme video in question it was titled "Your dating preferences are discriminatory" by Riley J. Dennis. She appears to have taken down the original. If you can find it, watch it and decide for yourself whether I misunderstood it or am lying.
You're the only person who has even mentioned trans people and ugliness in the same sentence. You've done it twice now. And the irony of mentioning paranoia when you're desperately seeking hatred where there is none. Someone once told me that discussing anything with a trans activist is impossible, as it's more like dealing with a cult member, and I didn't particularly believe him but I guess he must have met you.
(, Mon 16 Aug 2021, 1:24, Reply)
I have seen SockCooker use the same rhetoric
(replacing the out-group in question with black, Jew, gay, etc, in order to illustrate the bigotry of the situation), but I do it better, and I won't hound you and accuse you of being a paedophile if you make me upset.
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brb Learn Ukrainian and prepare for a referendum, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 18:46,
Reply)
for those who seem to want society to go to a lot of effort to recognise the genders as non-binary
trans supporters seem to have quite a binary view of the debate. anyone who opposes them is transphobic
Putting aside genetics, hormones, and genitals, I see things a bit like citizenship.
Now somebody could be born in yemen, but now in his mid 30s he's started to see himself more as british. he watches a lot of uk tv and mentally pictures himself as being british. He's never felt comfortable being yemeni, he can't stand hommus. thanks to some new change in the UK citzenship laws, he's able to get naturalised and get a british passport and move to britian. It was difficult and took bravery. He learns english though you can tell from the way talks he's not native, but the law entitles him to call himself british. And when he goes to a work party, he feels a bit of an outcast. His workmates all share common experiences and references of growing up in england that he missed out on and now has to kind of bluff at to pretend to understand what it was like. Sometime he makes mistakes that no brit would make, or tries too hard to be british. none of them grew up in yemen, and most can tell he's foreign, even if some arent sure where they know he wasn't born here. So he lives between worlds, like other people who change their country. British is a legal title, and he can make them call him british, but he is what he is and people can see it
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cumquat may will not be commenting further on the allegations, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 14:56,
Reply)
As someone else points out, why can you change sex, but not race?
Rachel Dolezal literally can’t get work now. There are other critical race theory academics who have done exactly the same, and a Democrat Senator was rumbled for the same thing (Elizabeth Warren).
On these shores Oli London identifies as Korean, he has no Korean antecedents and he’s never even been there, or at least hadn’t when he first started claiming he was Korean, maybe he has now, I don’t know. He’s also trans. Why do we believe one transition and not the other?
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Prufrock Lucifer, son of the morning!, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 15:59,
Reply)
Who says you can't?
Malaika Kubwa has made a pretty good job of it. Rachel Dolezal was quite clearly just mentally ill.
(, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 16:25, Reply)
You’re not fooling anyone by replying to yourself.
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Prufrock Lucifer, son of the morning!, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 16:36,
Reply)
Don’t mind if I do.
Love your name by the way. But you need a sig with literary pretentions to really finish it off. Think of a really famous quote by a really famous author and mangle it a bit for hilarious results. Something like ‘The ladyboy doth protest too much, methinks’.
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Prufrock Lucifer, son of the morning!, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 16:52,
Reply)
Hmmm, you’ve gone for a pun.
Did you fail your English lit GCSE?
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Prufrock Lucifer, son of the morning!, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 17:15,
Reply)
You are Gavin Williamson AICMFP.
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Prufrock Lucifer, son of the morning!, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 17:35,
Reply)
not sure sure if this proves he's not your sock puppet, prufrock, or you're just really poor at inventing dialogue
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cumquat may will not be commenting further on the allegations, Sun 15 Aug 2021, 8:46,
Reply)
Who says you can’t?
Literally the activist groups that most enthusiastically push trans rights are the ones who are very, very on the ball to recognise cultural appropriation and colonisation, and will get so angry about a Carribean recipe in a weight watchers book that progressives are in zero doubt that a person from a privileged racial background could not identify into oppression.
(, Sun 15 Aug 2021, 8:35, Reply)
One reason is because sex is real, but there's only one race of humans
since habilis and erectus are no more.
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brb Learn Ukrainian and prepare for a referendum, Sun 15 Aug 2021, 14:48,
Reply)
Hey Invisible Wizard
I’m not anti trans. But the current form of trans activism is regressive as fuck and relies entirely on conflating the concepts of sex and gender while hoping nobody notices that that’s what’s happening, while using a linguistic sleight of hand to assert that when male people say “I am female”, they magically reverse the dynamic of sexism and become the most oppressed type of woman.
People like you act as if rejecting some of the claims of trans activism = hate equivalent to homophobia, however that doesn’t stand up to scrutiny at all. Happy to discuss further if you have the inclination to actually understand what progressive opposition to your arguments actually looks like, and why some of us now reject the activism wholesale
(, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 21:51, Reply)
If you disagree with PETA's methods, you support animal abuse.
If you disagree with anything BLM says, you're a racist.
Etc, etc.
It's ironic, really, that all these overwhelmingly Left-Wing organisations (or their supporters at any rate) end up sounding so bloody fascist.
If you're unwilling to accept that being racist is bad, harming animals is bad, being intolerant to homosexuals and/or people that look a bit different is bad, and so on, then a bunch of quasi-militant virtue signaling fuckwits certainly aren't going to change your mind. Quite the opposite, I'd imagine.
(, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 22:20, Reply)
^ Right wing virtue signalling, complaining about virtue signalling while attempting to call out the irony of the left.
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brb Learn Ukrainian and prepare for a referendum, Sun 15 Aug 2021, 15:54,
Reply)
Calling out Left-Wing bullshit doesn't make your Right-Wing.
I'm pretty much as centrist as it gets. I took a test and everything.
(, Sun 15 Aug 2021, 18:05, Reply)
I have nothing new to add to this debate
apart from pointing out that the recent long threads on this matter don't seem to include comments by women
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Mudface The web isn't callipygian, Sun 15 Aug 2021, 5:11,
Reply)
Or, as far as I can tell, anyone identifying as being trans...
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Happosai _,,,,_(O ; o)_,,,, Sun 15 Aug 2021, 17:22,
Reply)
True
though statistically that is less anomalous
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Mudface The web isn't callipygian, Sun 15 Aug 2021, 17:59,
Reply)
OK, I’m gonna actually lay out
Exactly what the issues are, in plain speech.
The overall problem with the current form of the trans rights movement is that, unlike every other civil rights movement that has ever existed, it relies not on laying out what it’s demands are, but in hoping nobody notices what it’s demands are because people tend to find those demands unreasonable when they hear them. That’s why trans rights activism relies on superficial analogies - “it’s just like gay rights in the 80s!!” - and not on specific demands - “we want X and we need it because Y”.
Let’s look closer at some aspects of trans rights activism that appears any time it’s discussed.
First:
“Trans rights are human rights”
This is a statement that seems reasonable, but actually completely misrepresents the issues at stake.
The “rights” that are being discussed by those women who get called TERFs are *not* baseline human rights; they are rights and policies specifically written for trans people, specifically to address issues raised by trans people about what they want.
Any given demand for a specific group to have a new right, or a new policy or law may be reasonable or unreasonable, and needs to be argued for and the impact assessed to work out whether it can be accommodated.
However, refusing some of those demands - or reviewing policies that have been introduced without much thought - is not campaigning for “removal of a human right” - human rights are the baseline we all have, and then there may or may not be reason for some groups to have specific rights. Trans people are one of those groups, and they need to be able to articulate their specific demands themselves and be able to argue for them, and to convincingly address concerns about where these rights can negatively impact others
Next up:
“Trans women are women”
As a statement, it makes no sense. It’s a call for people to believe and affirm, but it can only be possible by changing the definition of “woman” from referring to an adult female human to something else.
What that something else is is something that trans activists avoid clarifying, but the definition they clearly use, is this;
“A woman is an adult human female who is cool with seeing herself as a woman, plus any male person who sees herself as a woman”
Now that’s a definition that, if trans activists were open about it, we could at least start to get progression on - openly holding that definition would mean that we at least recognise that within the now widened definition of “woman” we have female people, and male people, and that as members of different sexes they may sometimes have conflicting needs.
However, what we find that trans activism *actually* does is it holds that widened definition of “woman” only as a momentary pathway to taking the next step, again using linguistic sleight of hand. It goes something like this - again, I’m using plain language to lay out the process, Invisible Wizard is very welcome to tell me where I’m wrong, if I need I am - “since those male people who identify as women are now, by definition, women, there is no reason other than hatred to recognise that trans women are not the same sex as the adult female humans who were already in the category. We’ve accepted they are women now, so focusing on sex is a weird obsession with genitals!”
That trick there is helped along by the third obfuscation tactic used by trans activism, and that is this:
Conflating Sex and Gender, then telling opponents that it’s THEM who are doing this.
Here’s the thing you’ve probably seen - it’s on these threads here, and any time you’ve mentioned this on Twitter or Facebook you’ve probably encountered it
Person stumblin into debate: “I mean, sure, I can see that people can identify as they want, but a trans woman is still male”
Trans activists “oh, what you’ve done there is conflated sex and gender - nobody is saying people change sex! We’re talking about gender identity, which is about an internal sense of self, not changing sex!”
Here’s the problem with that: trans activists are indeed talking about gender identity, and (while some extreme trans activists do claim that sex doesn’t exist) they do indeed understand that sex exists.
However, the demand is that gender identity overwrites and determines sex category regardless of how that might impact on people in that sex category; this is how “gender identity” - which it’s us anti trans bigots who ignorantly conflate with sex, remember - means that Laurel Hubbard competes in the female category, that there’s a biological male who lied about his sex, who has had no surgery and doesn’t have a gender recognition certificate, who is currently in charge of a rape crisis centre in Scotland and has this week said that rape victims who are uncomfortable with male examiners need to “reframe” their positions.
So trans activism does recognise that sex exists - it just demands that we can’t ever use “trans women are the opposite sex to those women who aren’t trans” as a reason to exclude male people from a given female space. Which is, effectively, pretending that sex doesn’t exist, and that gender identity is the sole determining factor.
These are just the first three, fundamental issues with the demands made by trans activists, and they can be thrashed out. Noting these issues and contradictions however, is not hatred. That’s why I can absolutely r3cognise that dysphoria exists, that some people really do believe they have a gender identity that is at odds with their sexed body and that living *as* the opposite sex can alleviate discomfort, but I don’t accept that recognising that means having to abandon critical thinking and agreeing to every demand on the basis that scrutinising demands and impositions made by a group amounts to bigotry.
We live in a sexist world. Sex exists and matters. I am not convinced that the group “male people who demand access to female spaces, who have redefined what it is to be a woman, and who have got big organisations falling over themselves to have their flag on their socials to show support” are actually more vulnerable women than women.
(, Sun 15 Aug 2021, 8:28, Reply)