I agree with him saying before trying to get pregnant you should be healthy and a good weight.
Same with stopping smoking and drinking in my opinion.
(PsychoChomp, Tue 4 Oct 2011, 11:20, 4 replies, latest was 14 years ago)

I honestly do not understand how any women can smoke or drink during pregnancy
The amount of health issues linked to doing either, even in small amounts when pregnant are staggering.
( Agnostic Antichrist Baltimora, Tue 4 Oct 2011, 11:21, Reply)

I saw a beautiful sight the other day
a woman who must have been 10 months pregnant, wearing a mini dress and smoking outside a bookies. Pure class
(Quinton had to abandon other account as i broke it, Tue 4 Oct 2011, 11:23, Reply)

*facepalm*

( Agnostic Antichrist Baltimora, Tue 4 Oct 2011, 11:24, Reply)

Mirrored windows at the bookies?

(PsychoChomp, Tue 4 Oct 2011, 11:24, Reply)

you frigger

(Quinton had to abandon other account as i broke it, Tue 4 Oct 2011, 11:25, Reply)

Didn't touch her!

(Set your faces to Stunned Bigly, Tue 4 Oct 2011, 11:26, Reply)

Haha

( Agnostic Antichrist Baltimora, Tue 4 Oct 2011, 11:25, Reply)

Was she turning tricks so she could get the baby something nice?

(Set your faces to Stunned Bigly, Tue 4 Oct 2011, 11:24, Reply)

if it hadn't been for the enormous gut, fag and bookies
she would have looked really pretty, so I'll go with 'no'
(Quinton had to abandon other account as i broke it, Tue 4 Oct 2011, 11:26, Reply)

You came to Basildon and didn't say hello?

( scarpe We Stole Bikes, Tue 4 Oct 2011, 11:26, Reply)

In small amounts there is an arguable benefit to drinking.
Something like 3 small glasses of red wine a week.
(PsychoChomp, Tue 4 Oct 2011, 11:23, Reply)

Well that's not worth getting pregnant for.

( girlinthehole, Tue 4 Oct 2011, 11:24, Reply)

In 6th form, I did a fair amount of research into Foetal Alcohol Syndrome
Granted, it was 5 years ago, so things may have changed since, but at the time, according to what I read, there was no clear indicator how much was too much, so the only way to stay safe was to avoid it completely.
( Agnostic Antichrist Baltimora, Tue 4 Oct 2011, 11:25, Reply)

It's the benifit of decreased blood pressure vs the risk of FAS,
around about those levels, the benifit outweigh the risks.
Edit: according to some studies, it's hard to get much in the way of facts since the PC brigade stopped doctors testing on babies.
(PsychoChomp, Tue 4 Oct 2011, 11:33, Reply)

Ahh, fair enough

( Agnostic Antichrist Baltimora, Tue 4 Oct 2011, 11:37, Reply)

My parents smoking didn't stunt my growth.
But their drinking definitely inspired me.
(Set your faces to Stunned Bigly, Tue 4 Oct 2011, 11:22, Reply)

This.
Those of us who got conceived before the advent of all these namby-pamby nanny-state health-and-safety-gone-maaaad Guardian-reading hippie natural-birth earth mothers, who's mums smoked and drank, grew up to be double-hard bastards. Fact.

Kids these days are all nonces and it's because they didn't have to learn to survive in a hostile womb.
( Kroney, Tue 4 Oct 2011, 11:25, Reply)

Yeah.
No natural defences because they didn't have to be a Womb Warrior like wot we did.
(Set your faces to Stunned Bigly, Tue 4 Oct 2011, 11:27, Reply)

And not being ugly
Nobody wants ugly children.
(Bazongaloid, Tue 4 Oct 2011, 11:22, Reply)

Healthy - tick
Good weight - tick

Giving an absolute age after which he categorically gives his opinion that pregnancy is off-limits - no tick.
Calling someone 37 or over "selfish" - kind of impolite, especially since a 37 year old is not necessarily "old" - some can be so, physiologically speaking.
Giving this rather controversial opinion from his comfy home base where he will never have to worry about it - a little hypocritical, no?
( Mrs Legless . . . belongs to, well, you know . . . :), Tue 4 Oct 2011, 11:25, Reply)

It would only be hypocritical if outside of writing articles
he was actively knobbing 40 year old women and getting them up the duff deliberately.

As it is, his opinion may be distasteful to you, but it's not hypocritical.
(Bazongaloid, Tue 4 Oct 2011, 11:26, Reply)

Yes.

( scarpe We Stole Bikes, Tue 4 Oct 2011, 11:28, Reply)

Distasteful yes, but also
a little/lot annoying to be stating publicly his opinion on older pregnancy - not fact, no stats, just a throwaway line about being "selfish."

Let me see if I can give a comparative statement. Smokers heal much slower cf non-smokers. So a broken bone in one takes more time and resources to deal with. Smoking also happens to be an individual choice that I don't agree with. I haven't seen anyone call smokers "selfish" for not quitting when they break bones and thus saving hospitals money.

And his opinion is his own - fair call to him. But to use his title as ammo, that's wrong . . .
( Mrs Legless . . . belongs to, well, you know . . . :), Tue 4 Oct 2011, 11:32, Reply)

I take it Mr Legless hasn't been doing his conjugal duty recently?

(Quinton had to abandon other account as i broke it, Tue 4 Oct 2011, 11:35, Reply)

Heh heh
We don't have children yet.
I'm not Barry's "magical 37" yet but I am one of those who didn't choose to be older than 30 and without children. I didn't meet Legless until I was 30.
My job has taken most of my time for a while, and only recently can I feel human again.
( Mrs Legless . . . belongs to, well, you know . . . :), Tue 4 Oct 2011, 11:39, Reply)

I didn't ask

(Quinton had to abandon other account as i broke it, Tue 4 Oct 2011, 11:51, Reply)

Breaking a bone isn't a choice though is it?
In your comparison smoking is to age what bones are to pregnancy.

I think it's perfectly valid to think that older Mum's are selfish. The same applies to older fathers too, as I said earlier. (edit: Although I should reiterate again that it feels to me that he has his ages all wrong here, 37 seems young)

I think the 'looking after older parents' is an odd thing to focus on, but the health risks are proven and the bigger concern I have is that the older the parent, the more likely they are to die and leave young children who didn't get the benefit of knowing them for as long as they should.
( scarpe We Stole Bikes, Tue 4 Oct 2011, 11:37, Reply)

Then let's change the example . . .
joint replacement and smoking. Both choices, just like age and pregnancy.

A joint replacement with a risk of infection and loosening in a smoker is bad (bad, bad, bad) but aside from outlining the risks I don't preach to a patient.

I'm betting the next argument will be that a smoker doesn't damage anyome else, a pregnant lady with comorbidities does . . . :)
3....2....1....
( Mrs Legless . . . belongs to, well, you know . . . :), Tue 4 Oct 2011, 11:42, Reply)

Pregnant ladies do tend to have MASSIVE comorbidities, though.
They can take your eye out. I read it in a book.
( Davros' Granddad a voice of calm reason in a world of spastics., Tue 4 Oct 2011, 11:44, Reply)

Phwoooar!

( tangledupinblue hairy badge with moving eyes, Tue 4 Oct 2011, 11:45, Reply)

I'd have to look up 'comorbidities' before I could make that argument.

( scarpe We Stole Bikes, Tue 4 Oct 2011, 11:44, Reply)

OK, I looked it up.
But now I don't understand the point you were trying to make.
( scarpe We Stole Bikes, Tue 4 Oct 2011, 11:45, Reply)

Sorry - I'm getting pedantic . . .
My original point was I felt he was using the MBBS FRACOG (obstetrician) title to push his social comments. And I feel it's wrong - it gives the non-medical reader a skewed view.

If you convert the issue into another type of health problem, it sounds less like advice and more like "listen here, I know what's best for you ladies . . ."

I'll stop ranting now . . .
( Mrs Legless . . . belongs to, well, you know . . . :), Tue 4 Oct 2011, 11:50, Reply)

So a man with a lot of experience in women having babies
has stated that he thinks women having babies older is more risky, a fact that is backed up by the evidence, and yet he shouldn't be using his title, that of "women having babies doctor", despite this making him better placed than most to form such an opinion?
(Bazongaloid, Tue 4 Oct 2011, 11:53, Reply)

I think it's more the smugness
of someone who is never going to have that particular issue, and who hasn't taken into account that plenty of older women are absolutely fine, and that everything in life bears certain risks. Would he rather a forty year old women who wants a child and is prepared for it, has it, or a sixteen year old who might be better physically, but in nearly every other respect is a poorer choice?
( Amberl was stripey and dominated Europe, Tue 4 Oct 2011, 11:56, Reply)

I imagine he almost certainly does take into account the women who are okay
but what he's said is that of older women that come in having babies, more of them have problems than the younger women, again this is actually born out by evidence. So his opinion, based on this evidence, is that waiting to have kids and putting both you and your baby at risk, is selfish.

And to suggest that only someone who is a woman who is in that situation is allowed to have the opinion that it is either good or bad and that anyone else venturing such an opinion is "smug" is a bit ridiculous.
(Bazongaloid, Tue 4 Oct 2011, 12:04, Reply)

I don't want children at any age
so I'm not affected by it, but I find his judgement offensive, especially the selfish comment. As I said there are risks to everything, and people are entitled to take those risks.
( Amberl was stripey and dominated Europe, Tue 4 Oct 2011, 12:12, Reply)

They are indeed entitled to take risks should they choose to, but in taking those risks they can still be selfish.
Or do you think that everyone should be able to do anything they want to, without any concern for how their actions may affect someone else?

Oh, hang on, you're a tory, you do think that.
(Bazongaloid, Tue 4 Oct 2011, 12:15, Reply)

Yes . . . and no . . .
He can give whatever opinion he likes.
He also needs to remember what his job entails, and that there is a degree of social responsibility with giving advice about his field.

The "selfish" part of the interview gave me the shits, not his opinion on when to have babies. The judgement passed on an older mother is the wrong part, not the facts he opines...

It would be like me saying "all smokers who don't quit before their surgery are idiots." The science backs up smoking as a risky behaviour, but my judgement of stupidness for smokers is wrong.
( Mrs Legless . . . belongs to, well, you know . . . :), Tue 4 Oct 2011, 11:58, Reply)

It's not wrong at all
Say someone has a family that relies on them, but they are diabetic. They are told that smoking and drinking are worse for them than average people because of their condition, but they continue to do it anyway. That person is being selfish, they are putting themselves before other people who rely on them.
(Bazongaloid, Tue 4 Oct 2011, 12:06, Reply)

Yes . . . this is true
but do you think antagonising them and insulting them will lead to a change in behaviour? Nup.
All you'll get is "F*%$ off" - as seems to be the theme of the comments following the original article from a lot of people.


And to be fair, I have referred to someone as an "idiot" for certain lifestyle choices that didn't help his surgery. It was confrontational and probably didn't work for him anyway.
One of the first things medical students are taught (well, way back when I started . . .) is that judgements of patients are off-limits. What I think of someone is irrelevent because my job is to lok after them, even if I don't/agree with them.

Being judgemental of a person clouds clinical judgement . . . you tend to bugger things up when you're not thinking objectively.
( Mrs Legless . . . belongs to, well, you know . . . :), Tue 4 Oct 2011, 12:10, Reply)

So at no point should you ever venture an opinion about public health when asked during an interview?
He's not gone to an individual patient "You're a selfish cunt you are". And I suspect, that as a Doctor he probably wouldn't, for the same reasons you wouldn't, that said I have no evidence that this is true, but you have none the other way either.
(Bazongaloid, Tue 4 Oct 2011, 12:19, Reply)

No - because it isn't my/his job to do that . . .
It's not where his training lies, and I'm certainly not involved in public health, so I'm not going to give social commentary even in a subject I know a lot about.
( Mrs Legless . . . belongs to, well, you know . . . :), Tue 4 Oct 2011, 12:27, Reply)

Is he involved in public health?
I don't know, but given you based your comments on an article about an article, I can't imagine you know either.
(Bazongaloid, Tue 4 Oct 2011, 12:34, Reply)

No he's not . . .
And as stated before, I received the digest of the article as an email.

He's an obstetrician, admitted to the college in 2005.
No involvement in public health, professor at UWE.
( Mrs Legless . . . belongs to, well, you know . . . :), Tue 4 Oct 2011, 12:39, Reply)

It means 'gazongas'.

( Davros' Granddad a voice of calm reason in a world of spastics., Tue 4 Oct 2011, 11:46, Reply)

If that were true, then I really wouldn't understand the point.
I mean, why would I have a problem with that?
( scarpe We Stole Bikes, Tue 4 Oct 2011, 11:50, Reply)

All you need to understand is that old pregnant women are dangerous
Except for those with big boobies.
( tangledupinblue hairy badge with moving eyes, Tue 4 Oct 2011, 11:51, Reply)

Or are they more dangerous?
I forget
( tangledupinblue hairy badge with moving eyes, Tue 4 Oct 2011, 11:51, Reply)

I think they are more likely to trip over them

( scarpe We Stole Bikes, Tue 4 Oct 2011, 11:54, Reply)

You can be as physically healthy as you like
but the risk of chromosonal disorders like down syndrome does increase with age. at 20 it's 1 in 1500, at 37 it's 1in 242 and it just gets more likely as you increase age.
I'm not saying he's right but it's not a simple case of "my body, I can do what I like" waiting to become pregnant in later life does have drawbacks.
I don't really get his point about looking after parents, that's a strain whenever it happens
(PsychoChomp, Tue 4 Oct 2011, 11:31, Reply)

I don't dispute the stats, and he
may have seemed a little more credible with a couple thrown in.
To be fair, some creative editing on the journalist's part to make the "selfish" comment prominent did the job of making me 1. look and 2. get mad enough to comment

He just seemed to come off as a pissed off little boy . . . "You nasty women coming in with all these problems - just stop it!"
( Mrs Legless . . . belongs to, well, you know . . . :), Tue 4 Oct 2011, 11:36, Reply)

He's being a typical doctor.
Taking his medical opinion "people should stop making my job hard" and trying to justify it with poorly thought out logic and moronic social commentary.
All doctors think they know what's going on in society, and how to fix it but they rarely do.
(PsychoChomp, Tue 4 Oct 2011, 11:40, Reply)

If there's one thing I've learnt . . .
it's that I can't fix a bloody thing.
I cannot unbreak bones
I cannot reverse arthritis
I cannot uninjure tissues

And my job is not to be a preacher. I make the best of a situation after the injury. Preventative medicine is part of what I do, but insulting people isn't a great way to do it...
( Mrs Legless . . . belongs to, well, you know . . . :), Tue 4 Oct 2011, 11:44, Reply)

Doesn't being pregnant help/stop arthritis for the length of the pregnancy.
You should get all your arthritic women pregnant.
(PsychoChomp, Tue 4 Oct 2011, 11:52, Reply)

I know a pregnant women with arthritis and she complains pretty badly about it
She also continues to smoke weed, so perhaps her view is not so valid...
( tangledupinblue hairy badge with moving eyes, Tue 4 Oct 2011, 11:55, Reply)

"Oh my, my arthritis is so bad I can't skin up, you'll have to do it"
That sort of thing?
(PsychoChomp, Tue 4 Oct 2011, 11:57, Reply)

Funnily enough she can just about manage to skin up
But it's ok because she "doesn't put much tobacco in". Weed is fine apparently.
Oh, and she can't eat because it makes her feel sick.
( tangledupinblue hairy badge with moving eyes, Tue 4 Oct 2011, 11:59, Reply)

She sounds classy.

(PsychoChomp, Tue 4 Oct 2011, 12:01, Reply)

She really is.
In order to occasionally buy weed I have to occasionally spend time with people like this. It's nice to see how the other half live sometimes.
( tangledupinblue hairy badge with moving eyes, Tue 4 Oct 2011, 12:07, Reply)

Why do small time weed dealers always have such 'big plans'
which you know will never even come close to fruition?
( Naked Ape call me Caitlyn, Tue 4 Oct 2011, 12:16, Reply)

I never deal directly with dealers
Always keep myself at least one removed from them.
( tangledupinblue hairy badge with moving eyes, Tue 4 Oct 2011, 12:30, Reply)

If you linked to the original article
au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/-/newshome/10391604/you-are-selfish-senior-doctor-tells-old-mums/

it does have some numbers in, but not many. But it's a report of an interview, so that's really down to the poor quality journalism that is so prevalent in the southern hemisphere.
(Bazongaloid, Tue 4 Oct 2011, 11:42, Reply)

Excellent . . .
didn't see that - thanks. I received the link in an email (hence my absence earlier).
Yes, some stats - and a little on the caseoad of that particular unit, which see difficult pregnancies. So I guess the sample is skewed a little . . . which I would've thought "Barry" might have taken into account.
( Mrs Legless . . . belongs to, well, you know . . . :), Tue 4 Oct 2011, 11:48, Reply)

Without the actual text of the interview
you can't possibly know what "Barry" actually thinks, the whole article is a ludicrous puff piece designed around a headline whose only intention is to grab your attention. Which it did. But it only contains about 3 or 4 quotes from the guy.
(Bazongaloid, Tue 4 Oct 2011, 11:51, Reply)

Oh yes,
the sound bites from the guy are very well picked.
But I still find it hard to believe that in the course of a typical interview those phrases would come up, so I suspect ol' Barry is a bit of a prick.
( Mrs Legless . . . belongs to, well, you know . . . :), Tue 4 Oct 2011, 11:54, Reply)

Well, since it's almost certainly an interview about his opinion on older women who have kids
I don't see why it would surprise you that they came up?
(Bazongaloid, Tue 4 Oct 2011, 12:00, Reply)

"It is selfish and self-centred of older women to have babies"
that is a judgemental statement if I ever saw one . . . why on earth would a sane, logical (and someone who should be well-mannered with the public) man come up with that in the course of an interview?

"It is riskier to have babies as an older woman"
"It is more complicated having babies as an older woman"

There are far more civilised ways to say a similar thing.
( Mrs Legless . . . belongs to, well, you know . . . :), Tue 4 Oct 2011, 12:07, Reply)

Everyone should be culled when they get to 40
it's the only way
( Naked Ape call me Caitlyn, Tue 4 Oct 2011, 12:09, Reply)

I'm really struggling to understand your point in all this
I get that you don't agree with him, that's fine, but you're trying to make out that what he said is totally unexpected.

He has done an interview with a paper about his opinions on older women having babies. His opinion is that doing so is selfish. That's it, that's his opinion. It's an opinion arrived at by doing a job that involves coming in to contact with a lot of older women who have children and experience problems.

The facts are, as you say:
"It is riskier to have babies as an older woman"
"It is more complicated having babies as an older woman"

But his opinion, based on those facts, are that it is selfish of older women to have kids. And ultimately he's fully entitled to his opinion, as you are to yours.
(Bazongaloid, Tue 4 Oct 2011, 12:13, Reply)

His interview isn't unexpected as a whole . . .
the but about being selfish is unexpected, and very unprofessional.

His opinion is hiw own, and I disagree with him (although he can speak his mind on the subject at will).

What shits me is his position in this article is of a health professional, with training in a certain area. He provides facts, but also provides an opinion which is atagonistic, rude and does very little for his standing as a doctor.

He can't prove "selfish," he can't give me a percent incidence of "selfishness," - it a judgement that doesn't belong with all the other stuff there.

He loses credibility and objectivity when he uses that sort of description.
It's also a lazy way to argue - insult the population you are informing.
( Mrs Legless . . . belongs to, well, you know . . . :), Tue 4 Oct 2011, 12:22, Reply)

Is it not rather selfish to put your own belated desire to spawn
over that of the health of your potential child? 1 in 247 for Downs isn't great odds.
( Kroney, Tue 4 Oct 2011, 12:27, Reply)

Oh for pete's sake, stop personalising it, the bloke has never meet you and wasn't thinking of you when he wrote it. He has no idea how old and haggared you are.
He's a medical profesional doing an interview, would you expect him to say "Generally, and it's not true of all older women, and I really hope you don't mind me saying, but generally (and I stress, this isn't with everyone, it's only with some (really sorry if this offends)) that it could possibly be riskier to have babies as a mature women (which doesn't mean you're ugly or insupiror, it's just the way nature is, I really hope that's OK with you, it's just my experiance, might not be true for everyone" ?
( G/PP 💩💩💩💩💩&#128, Tue 4 Oct 2011, 12:25, Reply)

For all we know, he might have said exactly that anyway
because it's not going to get reported is it?

I wasn't aware that hyppocratic oath forbade Doctors from having an opinion either.

I'm with you and Al, I really don't see the problem here.
( scarpe We Stole Bikes, Tue 4 Oct 2011, 12:28, Reply)

Opinions aren't forbidden . . .
but imposing opinions/values on patients is.

What I feel about a patient's condition is not relevant to what say/do to them.
It doesn't even come into the conversation.

Could you imagine your doctor telling how he feels about each of your medical decisions? It's basically not his business.

I saw the problem with this guy's choice of words. That is all.
( Mrs Legless . . . belongs to, well, you know . . . :), Tue 4 Oct 2011, 12:34, Reply)

I'm pretty sure that my medical decisions are exactly my doctor's buisness, as well as mine.
How would you word "It is riskier to have babies as an older woman" and "It is more complicated having babies as an older woman" ?
( G/PP 💩💩💩💩💩&#128, Tue 4 Oct 2011, 12:38, Reply)

Your decisions are his busniess - his opinions on them are not relevant . . .
but I'm happy to agree to disagree as I'm a little tired of making the same point multiple times.
( Mrs Legless . . . belongs to, well, you know . . . :), Tue 4 Oct 2011, 12:41, Reply)

But as Al already said
that's not what he has done. he hasn't said to a patient in a consultation that he thinks they are selfish. He has offered an opinion at a general level in response to a question he was asked.
( scarpe We Stole Bikes, Tue 4 Oct 2011, 12:41, Reply)

An opinion as someone who is supposed to have an educated and measured view on the subject . . .
Selfish doesn't sound particularly measured.
( Mrs Legless . . . belongs to, well, you know . . . :), Tue 4 Oct 2011, 12:43, Reply)

No, selfish is a perfect description of what is happening.
If someone knowingly makes a decision that puts their self interest above that of other people who rely on them, that is selfish.

Selfish - concerned excessively or exclusively with oneself : seeking or concentrating on one's own advantage, pleasure, or well-being without regard for others
(Bazongaloid, Tue 4 Oct 2011, 12:46, Reply)

Look, let's agree to disagree
I will not accept that sort of language is a proper way to address a difficult medical question, and makes the person sound less credible, and you don't have an issue with it.

And I need to sleep.
( Mrs Legless . . . belongs to, well, you know . . . :), Tue 4 Oct 2011, 12:50, Reply)

Surely the only sensible way to settle this
is by arm-wrestling?
( tangledupinblue hairy badge with moving eyes, Tue 4 Oct 2011, 12:57, Reply)

God no . . .
Too tired . . .

How about rock/paper/scissors?
( Mrs Legless . . . belongs to, well, you know . . . :), Tue 4 Oct 2011, 12:59, Reply)

Knifey-spooney?

( tangledupinblue hairy badge with moving eyes, Tue 4 Oct 2011, 13:10, Reply)

Of course it's relevant
a patient comes to you and says "I've got diabetes but I love eating pies and cakes, smoking 50 fags a day, and drinking a bottle of wine"

You're going to say "Ok, that's fine, your decision 100%, I have no opinion on your actions".

Or, as a sensible doctor, you would more likely say "Don't smoke or drink and eat less pies and cakes"

And they will say "But I want to keep doing all this, and if I die my 3 year old child will be an orphan"

You will continue to say "oh, fine, your decision 100%".

Or maybe "You're being a bit selfish putting your cake and pie needs before that of your child, the way you are going, you will die much sooner than you need to"
(Bazongaloid, Tue 4 Oct 2011, 12:43, Reply)

I probably wouldn't be telling anyone I'm OK with a bad decision
what I will tell them is the options for their health. If you do this, x will happen. If you do this, y will happen.

At no point will I insult someone if I disagree with them. "If you want to do the following to your body, - these are the consequences . . . "

What ultimately happens to a patient is up to them, except when something life-threatening happens.
( Mrs Legless . . . belongs to, well, you know . . . :), Tue 4 Oct 2011, 12:46, Reply)

And as Gonz said, he hasn't insulted anyone either.
He's make a generalisation. Based on risks backed up by evidence.
(Bazongaloid, Tue 4 Oct 2011, 12:50, Reply)

So selfish is a term of endearment 'round your way
then?

Joking . . .


He's made a judgement on the personalities of a population, based on evidence (clincal and his own experience). Selfish is a adjective used to describe behaviour - he shouldn't be touching that argument in public at all.

And now I really am getting to bed . . . 'night
( Mrs Legless . . . belongs to, well, you know . . . :), Tue 4 Oct 2011, 12:52, Reply)

You really should stop editting your posts after the even without noting the fact that you are editting them
It's very bad manners when trying to have a discussion with someone.
(Bazongaloid, Tue 4 Oct 2011, 13:14, Reply)

But.. but... but... PIE!

( Davros' Granddad a voice of calm reason in a world of spastics., Tue 4 Oct 2011, 12:47, Reply)

It's okay Davros, it's okay, it was only theoretical pie.
It wasn't eve theoretically nice.
(Bazongaloid, Tue 4 Oct 2011, 12:49, Reply)

Phew.

( Davros' Granddad a voice of calm reason in a world of spastics., Tue 4 Oct 2011, 12:53, Reply)