sidestepping other issues
why on earth does anyone think that vegetarianim/veganism is ethically sound? or at least, ethically better than the alternative?
( the mighty badger Aphrodite, on a bar stool, by your side, Tue 25 Oct 2011, 12:24, 3 replies, latest was 14 years ago)

Seriously?
I'm not touching that with a barge pole but there are reams of info on the web about it if you actually care. Start with the wikipedia artical if you want the basics. I'd also imagine it varies from person to person.
( CQ Knows the truth, all of it., Tue 25 Oct 2011, 12:26, Reply)

damn.
I was hoping for some good banter. Why the fuck would I read what utter tools on the internet write? I've got you lot for that.
( the mighty badger Aphrodite, on a bar stool, by your side, Tue 25 Oct 2011, 12:29, Reply)

Ahh, as I expected, looking for a fight rather than information.
Sorry, I'm a very lax veggie and I don't preach, for me the reason is because I want to.
( CQ Knows the truth, all of it., Tue 25 Oct 2011, 12:33, Reply)

I am genuinely interested, not looking for a fight
but I realise it's a pointless minefield because it really depends on whay people mean by the "ethics" of it.
( the mighty badger Aphrodite, on a bar stool, by your side, Tue 25 Oct 2011, 12:35, Reply)

If you are genuinely interested there are better places to find out
not least because Swipe, Blousie and myself are atypical vegetarians. There are also a ton of different answers, some of the basics outlined here. Personally I wish both sides would stop sniping and jus eat what they want to.
( CQ Knows the truth, all of it., Tue 25 Oct 2011, 12:47, Reply)

^this

( girlinthehole, Tue 25 Oct 2011, 12:48, Reply)

I'm not sniping. I've asked to a genuine answer to something that confuses me.
You seem to think I'm doing this for the lolz.
( the mighty badger Aphrodite, on a bar stool, by your side, Tue 25 Oct 2011, 12:51, Reply)

Maybe vegans think that we've reached a moral and technological point where killing something to eat is not necessary anymore.
We can live without meat quite successfully.
( girlinthehole, Tue 25 Oct 2011, 13:01, Reply)

when we evolve to be able to digest cellulose, hemicellulose and lignin
that might be true. Although, granted, the major driving factor for that would be consumption of them, so you've got a fair point
( the mighty badger Aphrodite, on a bar stool, by your side, Tue 25 Oct 2011, 13:15, Reply)

I'm just guessing tbh.
I'm more against something suffering for my consumption.
( girlinthehole, Tue 25 Oct 2011, 13:17, Reply)

You've admitted to baiting, but OK.
Personally, my reasons are a combination of what Beej says about farming practices, combined with being unwilling to kill anything personally, so I find it morally consistent not to eat it. I would kill and or eat animals if I needed to, hell I'd kill and or eat you if I needed to, but I don't, so I don't. There are other reasons and Its not all clear in my head yet, but that's thr thrust of it for me.
( CQ Knows the truth, all of it., Tue 25 Oct 2011, 13:03, Reply)

Nah, I was referring to if I ever abuse vegetarianism on here
that's me baiting. I'm not abusing any choice at all in this instance, it's the ultimate expression of the ethics I don't understand.

I understand your reasons as you personal decisions, of course, I guess I'm thinking more of a "group ethic" thing as to why human society thinks it matters why eating meat is something should be stopped if not necessary, but happily continues with other practices which are vastly more harmful and equally as unnecessary without a second's thought. But, like you, I haven't fully thought this through, I just wondered what people thought.
( the mighty badger Aphrodite, on a bar stool, by your side, Tue 25 Oct 2011, 13:13, Reply)

because humans, in groups, are morons basically.
once you accept this you'll find the world less confusing.
( CQ Knows the truth, all of it., Tue 25 Oct 2011, 13:22, Reply)

Oh I know this. I'm a University lecturer, remember?
I wonder why they are so selectively moronic though.
( the mighty badger Aphrodite, on a bar stool, by your side, Tue 25 Oct 2011, 13:29, Reply)

Human nature, innit?
Also, being a lecturer you get to meet the 'clever ones', just think the average, voting, prole is a good whack less bright that most people you interact with.
( CQ Knows the truth, all of it., Tue 25 Oct 2011, 13:32, Reply)

They don't snipe all the animals, bolt guns usuallu
And big fat swords for halal
( SteveFrench Cardio is for homo's. do you even lift bro?, Tue 25 Oct 2011, 13:01, Reply)

A middling county cricket side pretty good in the 90's?

( The Light in Chains don't touch the Pope's boner, Tue 25 Oct 2011, 13:14, Reply)

Personally I became a vegetarian not because I thought eating meat was bad but because of the terrible way they were treated in being farmed.
This was about twenty years ago and it has changed a bit but I really don't miss red meat and therefore don't bother buying free range.
( girlinthehole, Tue 25 Oct 2011, 12:34, Reply)

I completely accept this as an choice
it's the idea that not eating meat at all is more ethical that confuses me.
( the mighty badger Aphrodite, on a bar stool, by your side, Tue 25 Oct 2011, 12:45, Reply)

If you'r basing that on my vegan cake comment is was what we in the industry call a joke.

( CQ Knows the truth, all of it., Tue 25 Oct 2011, 12:47, Reply)

not at all
I realised that. I just thought I'd try and add another serious discussion to the thread.
( the mighty badger Aphrodite, on a bar stool, by your side, Tue 25 Oct 2011, 12:49, Reply)

Quite right, there weren't nearly enough questions in the start of this thread.

( tangledupinblue hairy badge with moving eyes, Tue 25 Oct 2011, 12:56, Reply)

I have rather totally realised my error, here.

( the mighty badger Aphrodite, on a bar stool, by your side, Tue 25 Oct 2011, 12:56, Reply)

I dunno, you've sparked off more debate in your sub-thread than in the main.

( tangledupinblue hairy badge with moving eyes, Tue 25 Oct 2011, 13:10, Reply)

i don't know
as i am a vegetarian purely on the grounds of being fussy, albeit that if i had to kill anything, i would cry and be so traumatised it's untrue.

but i suspect it is because people who actually have principLES don't agree with killing animals for human consumption.
( rachelswipe with a fork, Tue 25 Oct 2011, 12:27, Reply)

why? it's fundamentally how nature works.

( the mighty badger Aphrodite, on a bar stool, by your side, Tue 25 Oct 2011, 12:29, Reply)

i don't know, do i?
i just said i don't have any morals! maybe they object to all the farmers, farm workers, butchers, slaugherhouse staff, packers, wrappers, truckers, supermarket and other shop staff, chefs etc having jobs as a consequence?
( rachelswipe with a fork, Tue 25 Oct 2011, 12:33, Reply)

Oh come on that's a shit argument about anything.
and you know it, unless you are a lot less bright than I had you pegged for.
( CQ Knows the truth, all of it., Tue 25 Oct 2011, 12:35, Reply)

haha.
perhaps I am. Why is a shit argument? it's no less shit than the only counter point, which is "we should know better because we're more evolved - we don't HAVE to kill and eat things" which is the worst kind of pseudo-scientific horseshit.
( the mighty badger Aphrodite, on a bar stool, by your side, Tue 25 Oct 2011, 12:37, Reply)

it's shit because "it's natural innit?"
covers all sorts of undesirable stuff like infant mortality and dying of things easily curable by artificial means. Our dams are as 'natural' as beaver dams, anything we choose to do is 'natural'. We can choose to keep doing things the way we have been doing them in the past or do them differently.

people on both sides wheel out this tired and pointless argument to slag off anything they disagree with that has any component of choice.

Also stop with the shitty straw-man arguments, I'm not biting.

You get annoyed by shit reporting or stats, I get annoyed my shit arguments from people who have every appearance of knowing better.
( CQ Knows the truth, all of it., Tue 25 Oct 2011, 12:44, Reply)

I agree with all of the first sentence.
what I am asking, and I think the point you've missed, is why "not eating meat" as a mark of progress is "better". All the other things you mention improve our quailty of life or the environment. How does not eating meat improve either? I can see aggressive farming of animals as bad (although the only alternative is intensive crop farming which is just as bad) ... but how does that translate to just simply eating meat being bad?
( the mighty badger Aphrodite, on a bar stool, by your side, Tue 25 Oct 2011, 12:48, Reply)

I don't argue that it's progress.
I'm not sure anyone has. I suppose one could argue that it's morral progress in as far as not killing unless you need to.

This raises the question about whether killing an animal has any moral ramifications.

I'd argue not many if it's done cleanly (which is very rare), but it's not something I have a taste for personally, too much empathy I guess.
( CQ Knows the truth, all of it., Tue 25 Oct 2011, 13:07, Reply)

I suspect, if we got into moral ramifications of killing animals for food
we'd all get tied up in anthromophicism and that kind of shit. I might need to go back to kittums.
( the mighty badger Aphrodite, on a bar stool, by your side, Tue 25 Oct 2011, 13:19, Reply)

Indeed.
A good conversation over a pint sometime perhaps. do you ever make it to bashes?
( CQ Knows the truth, all of it., Tue 25 Oct 2011, 13:24, Reply)

not for a while, but sounds like a plan.
beer can rectify all issues. Eventually. If you apply enough beer.
( the mighty badger Aphrodite, on a bar stool, by your side, Tue 25 Oct 2011, 13:30, Reply)

Some conversations are better over a pint and when you can tell if and when the other person is joking.

( CQ Knows the truth, all of it., Tue 25 Oct 2011, 13:33, Reply)

Unless you are autistic

( tangledupinblue hairy badge with moving eyes, Tue 25 Oct 2011, 13:39, Reply)

Mildly aspie at best
although I cannot speak for badger.
( CQ Knows the truth, all of it., Tue 25 Oct 2011, 13:44, Reply)

Sidestepping your question
Why do omnivores care so much about what vegetarians eat?
The cliché used to be about sanctimonious carrot-munchers evangelically preaching about the evils of meat-eating to a disinterested world. But the reality is a load of constipated people banging on about how you should EAT MEAT YOU WEAKLING!!
Just an observation.
( tangledupinblue hairy badge with moving eyes, Tue 25 Oct 2011, 12:38, Reply)

I don't know the answer to that
I personally really don't care, unless I'm baiting for comic effect.

Well, except vegans obviously.
( the mighty badger Aphrodite, on a bar stool, by your side, Tue 25 Oct 2011, 12:40, Reply)

Speaking as a vegetarian
Even I think that vegans are cunts.
( tangledupinblue hairy badge with moving eyes, Tue 25 Oct 2011, 12:42, Reply)

This^
sanctimonious ones at that.
( CQ Knows the truth, all of it., Tue 25 Oct 2011, 12:48, Reply)