having stuff at the expense of other people?
and at a cost of the raping of the world's resources?
( Citizen Cavy Admires your passion for conformity, Mon 11 Jul 2011, 18:37, 2 replies, latest was 15 years ago)

Its the only system that has ever worked.
Life under Socialism was for most people a living hell, as 1917 to 1989 showed.
(888777555, Mon 11 Jul 2011, 18:40, Reply)

There are a few sliiight errors in this statment
If you would actually like to discuss politics I shall make the mistake of attempting a rational and civil debate, let me know.
( CQ Knows the truth, all of it., Mon 11 Jul 2011, 18:58, Reply)

Blah blah blah it wasn't real Marxism.
Heard it all before.
The left wing press supported the USSR until it collapsed in 1992. Only then did it change its tune.
At the end of the day, If something is in the ownership of individuals, mutual collectives or companies, Its Capitalist. If its in the ownership of the state or the whole nation, it's not capitalism.
(888777555, Mon 11 Jul 2011, 19:00, Reply)

Hold your horses lad, I'm one of the few people around here that's yet to call you a cunt of a pedo
And for records, the comunist tag, is something of a joke, I'm more of a leftist anarchist and I have some respect for a proper libertarian even if I don't agree with them.


That said, I would like to point out that, communism, socialism, Marxism (and arguably whatever you want to call the dictatorship they had in Russia) are all different things, you may not agree with them, and this is fine, but by conflating them you make yourself look either lazy or stupid, which is not a good way to start an argument.

What we have in this country, and indeed whatever that nice Mr. Cameron would like to have could be called socialism, allbeit at one end of the spectrum. If you're c=going to discredit a system by association with the USSR, Communism is the one.

Oh and bugger the press left of right, I won't be defending them anytime soon.
( CQ Knows the truth, all of it., Mon 11 Jul 2011, 19:13, Reply)

Communism was supposed to be the end product of socialism, if I have that right?

(888777555, Mon 11 Jul 2011, 19:17, Reply)

This may once have been the theory
These days, even those members of the labour party who would still call them selves socialists are not looking towards a Glorious Communist Future, pretty much everyone, apart from a few quite delusional people admit's that Russia went pretty epicly wrong. I can't see many still wanting to emulate that model

Even if you think what they were aiming for was laudable, which I do and I assume you don't you'd have to be prrety blind not to see that it degenerated into a miserable dictatorship pretty damn fast.
( CQ Knows the truth, all of it., Mon 11 Jul 2011, 19:22, Reply)

human beings are a dumb species
that got lucky.
( Citizen Cavy Admires your passion for conformity, Mon 11 Jul 2011, 19:23, Reply)

oddly enough, not so much.
We are pretty damn bright and are slowly but surely dragging ourselves up with the occasional mistake and setback.

that's what I think this week anyway.
( CQ Knows the truth, all of it., Mon 11 Jul 2011, 19:31, Reply)

heh
in crowds we are an idiot herd species.
( Citizen Cavy Admires your passion for conformity, Mon 11 Jul 2011, 19:35, Reply)

Why so negative Moriarty?

( CQ Knows the truth, all of it., Mon 11 Jul 2011, 19:40, Reply)

There are beautiful ideas in the world
and beautiful things, but humanity is peppered with greedy, lazy, selfish and power-mad bastards that make the place ugly.

OK, I'm a hippy
( Citizen Cavy Admires your passion for conformity, Mon 11 Jul 2011, 19:47, Reply)

you are a negative hippy
and thus doing it wrong. I shall call you Moriarty hence force until you either lighten up or congratulate me on my excellent and obscure reference.
( CQ Knows the truth, all of it., Mon 11 Jul 2011, 19:53, Reply)

I'm assuming it's Sherlock Holmes, right?
I don't know much SH, the only time I read one was a french parallel text in vague attempt to learn the language while I was there.
( Citizen Cavy Admires your passion for conformity, Mon 11 Jul 2011, 19:55, Reply)

Nope, miles away
although I do like Sherlock Holmes
( CQ Knows the truth, all of it., Mon 11 Jul 2011, 19:57, Reply)

then I don't get the reference
so well done for being proper obscure!

what is it?
( Citizen Cavy Admires your passion for conformity, Mon 11 Jul 2011, 20:00, Reply)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KuStsFW4EmQ
you will now tell me you've never seen this film, which is a shame as it's awesome and has Tanks in ti and I'm totally Oddball.
( CQ Knows the truth, all of it., Mon 11 Jul 2011, 20:03, Reply)

you are correct
I have never seen this film. Perhaps one day I shall
( Citizen Cavy Admires your passion for conformity, Mon 11 Jul 2011, 20:05, Reply)

If you can stand the odd war film it's worth it
it's very strange, set in the 2nd world war but with some very 70s characters in it and not as much about war as you'd think, but then I quite like war films to my shame.
( CQ Knows the truth, all of it., Mon 11 Jul 2011, 20:11, Reply)

No, that's entirely wrong.
Communism was suppposed to be a method of achieving a form of socialism.
( Dr Preference AjcuiVd289, Mon 11 Jul 2011, 19:29, Reply)

I think what we have in the UK is the best combination of system.
It's far from perfect, and I hate the thought that people want to disabandon the NHS (the greatest achievement of mankind, as far as I'm concerned, of the last century). I do think we need a radical shake-up in the entire public sector, the horrific waste of money makes me actually phsyicly sick (as I can't get treatment needed, due to funds, where as they're still buying iPads for those in charge).
( G/PP 💩💩💩💩💩&#128, Mon 11 Jul 2011, 19:18, Reply)

Pretty much all good economies are mixed , infact the free market requires an organised, efficient state, but I think Britain's is too statist.
Rather than 47.1 % of the economy being the state, or whatever it is,It should be more like 20 or 30% as in Switzerland, the US, Japan, South Korea, Chile (Pinochet did make them the richest Latin American nation), Australia,Estonia, Luxembourg and Hong Kong.
Not everyone who wants the NHS gone opposes its principles , universal healthcare, highest standards, value for money its just the details of the system and the structural model they disagree with.
Daniel Hannan MEP has some very reasonable aruments as to why we should switch to the Singaporean System. Nobody here is asking for the US system.
Then again most in the US oppose having an NHS .
Good for them I say, each to their own.
(888777555, Mon 11 Jul 2011, 19:27, Reply)

I like kittens.

( Davros' Granddad a voice of calm reason in a world of spastics., Mon 11 Jul 2011, 19:28, Reply)

^this

( girlinthehole, Mon 11 Jul 2011, 19:30, Reply)

I like dogs
www.wimp.com/hardway/
www.wimp.com/onepuppy/
( G/PP 💩💩💩💩💩&#128, Mon 11 Jul 2011, 19:49, Reply)

really good for them?
do you really think a country can consider itself successful when it's people can't afford to have necessary treatment because medical insurance is so high?

I, for one, would have been pretty fucked a couple of years back if that were the system here
( Citizen Cavy Admires your passion for conformity, Mon 11 Jul 2011, 19:30, Reply)

This made me Sad Face today
notalwaysright.com/not-the-breast-of-days/12434
and then
notalwaysright.com/through-joy-and-sorrow-sickness-and-health-insurance/12423

Yeah', it's on a comedy site, but it makes me actually disgusted at the american healthcare system.
( G/PP 💩💩💩💩💩&#128, Mon 11 Jul 2011, 19:35, Reply)

I think the trouble with the NHS, is that while there is a public purse, there is going to be exploitation.
The people in charge of the purse-strings are on their 30-40kpa jobs, but they're dealing in deals worth millions, so naturally companies bidding for these contracts will woe the person in charge, treat them to expensive meals and all that.

And there is so much wasteage that wouldn't happen in a private company.
( G/PP 💩💩💩💩💩&#128, Mon 11 Jul 2011, 19:46, Reply)

Becuase it was their choice to vote for politicians that opposed it.
Democracy has given them a choice.
(888777555, Mon 11 Jul 2011, 19:36, Reply)

choice is only real choice if you
have real information about what you are choosing.
( Citizen Cavy Admires your passion for conformity, Mon 11 Jul 2011, 19:38, Reply)

Yes, the US is very rich, most deserving people have a good standard of living. That is in itself good.

(888777555, Mon 11 Jul 2011, 19:40, Reply)

Deserving people?
How do you decide which four year olds are most deserving of a decent education?
( Dr Preference AjcuiVd289, Mon 11 Jul 2011, 19:43, Reply)

They all get one anyway.
Theres a difference between state run education and health, and state facilitated. A voucher system seems like a reasonable compromise.
(888777555, Mon 11 Jul 2011, 19:43, Reply)

They all get a good standard of education?

( Dr Preference AjcuiVd289, Mon 11 Jul 2011, 19:44, Reply)

It's been stated on the internet so it must be true.

( Davros' Granddad a voice of calm reason in a world of spastics., Mon 11 Jul 2011, 19:45, Reply)

They are all, the same as in the UK, legally given one.

(888777555, Mon 11 Jul 2011, 19:48, Reply)

Doesn't mean it's a good education, though.

( Davros' Granddad a voice of calm reason in a world of spastics., Mon 11 Jul 2011, 19:50, Reply)

So why, if it's any good, does everybody who can afford to, send their kids to private schools at vast expense?

( Dr Preference AjcuiVd289, Mon 11 Jul 2011, 19:52, Reply)

Because Private schools are better.
As I understand it, if all taxes were cut or abolished, and almost everything the state did was privatized, even poor people would be able to afford to buy privately services offered by the state, but with all the upsides of a market provides.
(888777555, Mon 11 Jul 2011, 19:54, Reply)

Did you get a private education?

( Dr Preference AjcuiVd289, Mon 11 Jul 2011, 19:57, Reply)

Quiet now son, the adults are talking.

( The Mock TurtIe ™ --- Thinks you are a cunt, on, Mon 11 Jul 2011, 20:01, Reply)

I'm going to count to three.
If you've not said sorry and written out "I am a teenager who really should shut the fuck up until I've got an education." five times by the time I finish then I'm going to fuck your shit up.

One.
( Dr. Shambolic je suis charlie, Mon 11 Jul 2011, 20:02, Reply)

Some life experience would help too.
Can you imagine how much more arrogant and deluded he'd be if he was armed with an education and no knowledge of the real world? He'd cause a diplomatic incident every time he opened his mouth.
( The Mock TurtIe ™ --- Thinks you are a cunt, on, Mon 11 Jul 2011, 20:04, Reply)

Like Prince Philip, then?

( Davros' Granddad a voice of calm reason in a world of spastics., Mon 11 Jul 2011, 20:10, Reply)

Two.

( Dr. Shambolic je suis charlie, Mon 11 Jul 2011, 20:06, Reply)

just step away
it's the only answer
( Citizen Cavy Admires your passion for conformity, Mon 11 Jul 2011, 20:10, Reply)

Three.
OK Cameron. Time for kiddies to go to bed.
( Dr. Shambolic je suis charlie, Mon 11 Jul 2011, 20:13, Reply)

Oh man, I can't wait for you to leave your parents' house and try to survive on your own.
It'll be hilarious, you worryingly naive little cretin.
( BraynDedd Natasha Kaplinsky's labia majora, Mon 11 Jul 2011, 20:29, Reply)

For the bumming?

( Davros' Granddad a voice of calm reason in a world of spastics., Mon 11 Jul 2011, 19:55, Reply)

so poor people all deserve to be poor, right?

( Citizen Cavy Admires your passion for conformity, Mon 11 Jul 2011, 19:46, Reply)

And apparently large chunks of the population deserve to be sick.

( Dr Preference AjcuiVd289, Mon 11 Jul 2011, 19:47, Reply)

Only the ones that can't afford healthcare.

( Davros' Granddad a voice of calm reason in a world of spastics., Mon 11 Jul 2011, 19:49, Reply)

I'm not advocating the US system, I do not oppose the NHS, but there probably is a better way which is neither.
Singapore recon they've found it.
(888777555, Mon 11 Jul 2011, 19:52, Reply)

Of course Singapore reckon they've found it.
Singapore jail opposition policies, and make it illegal for newspapers to be critical of the government.
No wonder we only hear good news from there.
( Dr Preference AjcuiVd289, Mon 11 Jul 2011, 19:55, Reply)

Do you think the concept of the NHS is inherently perfect? Do you think there could ever be a different system to better it?

(888777555, Mon 11 Jul 2011, 19:59, Reply)

I didn't mention the NHS.

( Dr Preference AjcuiVd289, Mon 11 Jul 2011, 20:00, Reply)

OK you made a fair point about Singapore.
But apparently even foreigners are able to see how it is the best system.
(888777555, Mon 11 Jul 2011, 20:06, Reply)

Like fuck they do.
I was involved in researching for a general election cmpaign this year. I read large numbers of research papers from around the world, and not even the right-wingers used Singapore to justify their plans.
( Dr Preference AjcuiVd289, Mon 11 Jul 2011, 20:09, Reply)

Well, Daniel Hannan.

(888777555, Mon 11 Jul 2011, 20:10, Reply)

The Milosevic supporter?
Do you base your health policies on proximity to genocide?
( Dr Preference AjcuiVd289, Mon 11 Jul 2011, 20:13, Reply)

Step away from the computer.
You are arguing with a 16 year old on-line.
( girlinthehole, Mon 11 Jul 2011, 20:14, Reply)

Supporter of war criminals and infamous fillibuster in chief in a democratically-elected parliament?
That Daniel Hannan?
( Dr. Shambolic je suis charlie, Mon 11 Jul 2011, 20:16, Reply)

I'd like to see how quickly he does a U-turn on this view when life deals him the joker and he winds up being unable to afford employment, housing or food.

( The Mock TurtIe ™ --- Thinks you are a cunt, on, Mon 11 Jul 2011, 19:54, Reply)

Give over, there are many cases of people who have done certain things that mean they deserve to be poor.
Not all the time, but yes, I tend to subscribe to the view that capitalism gives you what you deserve.
I'm not against benefits for the triers, the hardworking, the responsible.
(888777555, Mon 11 Jul 2011, 20:00, Reply)

What if one of your parents dies when you're still in school,
and as a result you and your other parent wind up dirt-poor and in very real danger of being evicted or having your home reposessed? What if you have to go into full-time work at 16 just so you don't starve or wind up on the streets? What about that? Bet you didn't think of any circumstances like that, did you?
( The Mock TurtIe ™ --- Thinks you are a cunt, on, Mon 11 Jul 2011, 20:10, Reply)

Getting an Education counts as "the triers".
I'm not opposed to welfare.
All wealthy nations offer their citizens an enlightened ,reasonable and compassionate welfare system.
I'd just advocate reform, extra efficiency, and cuts to taxation to make sure everyone gets justice and VFM.
(888777555, Mon 11 Jul 2011, 20:12, Reply)

I'm starting to think you're many years overdue for a good clip round the ear.

( The Mock TurtIe ™ --- Thinks you are a cunt, on, Mon 11 Jul 2011, 20:19, Reply)

Twenty five years ago when I was your age
I could have demolished you in a debate without breaking a sweat. Except I wouldn't have done because I was too busy going out, taking drugs and having sex.

Put the internet down and try to remember how to be a teenager. Come back in ten years when you've actually got something original to say.
( Dr. Shambolic je suis charlie, Mon 11 Jul 2011, 20:30, Reply)

What do you mean by 40-50% state?
What is 40 to 50% state? And if you don't know the figures, how do you know it's not the 20 to 30% you recommend?

EDIT: Ah, I see you've clarified a bit. But again, if you don't know the figures, how can you advocate another set of figures?
(MooCow_Byter, Mon 11 Jul 2011, 19:33, Reply)

Got the precsie figures from the World Bank.
I'd advocate 20-30% because the nations I mentioned all are richer than the UK.
(888777555, Mon 11 Jul 2011, 19:38, Reply)

richer=better?

( Citizen Cavy Admires your passion for conformity, Mon 11 Jul 2011, 19:39, Reply)

So if the government spends 50% less of its money in the UK,
we'll become richer than Japan?
(MooCow_Byter, Mon 11 Jul 2011, 19:44, Reply)

Not just public spending cuts will drive the economy once the defecit is gone.
We'd need taxes to be cut in relation to the spending cut.
(888777555, Mon 11 Jul 2011, 19:50, Reply)

Oh, OK.
So once public spending is in line with that of Tanzania, Sierra Lione and Niger, we'll be able to emulate their success?

I'm not trying to have a go at you, I just want to see how your proposal will necessarily improve standards of living. And in fact, according to www.heritage.org/index/explore?view=by-variables all the countries you mention except Chile and Hong Kong are over 30%. And I suggest Hong Kong might be a bit of a special case.

Maybe I'm misinterpreting the figures.
(MooCow_Byter, Mon 11 Jul 2011, 19:59, Reply)

Tax Burden was what I was looking at, but yeah, GDP spending too.
To be honest I'm not saying Its set in stone but we should at least try to emulate the success of Aus, etc.
(888777555, Mon 11 Jul 2011, 20:05, Reply)

Wait, you're quoting Pinochet as an example of doing things correctly?
You do realise that Pinochet use state resources to carry out his campaign of mass murder?
Surely, by your logic, such atrocities should be carried out by the private sector.
( Dr Preference AjcuiVd289, Mon 11 Jul 2011, 19:36, Reply)

I don't deny his regime was a bunch of Bastards.
Or that they used state resources.
But his privatization and taxation polices were very well pitched in themselves.
(888777555, Mon 11 Jul 2011, 19:42, Reply)

Except that they were so unpopular that the state had to kill lots of people in order to get away with it.

( Dr Preference AjcuiVd289, Mon 11 Jul 2011, 19:43, Reply)

I still like kittens.

( Davros' Granddad a voice of calm reason in a world of spastics., Mon 11 Jul 2011, 19:45, Reply)

Well anyway all elected Chilean governments since have agreed with him so there must be something in it.

(888777555, Mon 11 Jul 2011, 19:47, Reply)

Could you not actually bring yourself to type "I was wrong" there?
Is "well anyway" as much as you could manage?

Are you really sixteen? Don't most people's balls drop far enough for them to have the courage to admit mistakes when they're about twelve or thirteen? Christ.
( Dr. Shambolic je suis charlie, Mon 11 Jul 2011, 20:35, Reply)

Socialisim, as I understand it, and I'm very uneducated in this department... does not equate to the opersite of comercialism.

( G/PP 💩💩💩💩💩&#128, Mon 11 Jul 2011, 19:12, Reply)

That's correct, Gonz.

( Dr Preference AjcuiVd289, Mon 11 Jul 2011, 19:30, Reply)

At the expense of other people who haven't done the stuff that I have done, yes.
And in regards to 'raping the world's resources', I would like to see how I can consume that much of _anything_.
( G/PP 💩💩💩💩💩&#128, Mon 11 Jul 2011, 18:55, Reply)

sweat-shop workers?
...and look on the packets of anything you do consume, it's a takes a surprising number of things and processes and stuff to make even little things

(currently a bit fired up about this shit today and hence may be going to the Amazon sometime :D)
( Citizen Cavy Admires your passion for conformity, Mon 11 Jul 2011, 19:03, Reply)

How comes in comunities with sweatshop workers, the workers are considered the lucky ones? I'm not saying it's right, but that's a fact.
They can feed themselves and their families where as others go poorer, people in these comunties actually breed to get more people in them, surely that is more heartless than the exploitation. It is generally a supprise when it turns out a western company is seen to be using them, and I believe that is geniune for the most part; and they're generally shut down upon learning of that. Surely it is more the fault of the sweatshop owners?

(I can totally argue this corner)
( G/PP 💩💩💩💩💩&#128, Mon 11 Jul 2011, 19:11, Reply)

oh I'm not blaming the companies exclusively here
but does it not seem a bit fucked up that we've set a world up in which poor people are treated like shit while making things we don't need thousands of miles away?

Not saying all the stuff we don't need, but really, do we need as much stuff as we have? Do we need as much 'choice' as we're offered?

There are limited resources on this 'ere Earth and yet we're using a whole load of them to make and deliver christmas cracker toys.

Just makes me sad
( Citizen Cavy Admires your passion for conformity, Mon 11 Jul 2011, 19:18, Reply)

In the same respect, we're creating 'stuff' that are being export over seas, probably more so on a fiscal level...
... but what we, in the UK, create as an export is 'service'. Taking the technology industry, it's greatest producer is south-east asia, because that is where the raw materials, and as a result, is where the best developers are. Nobody is crying over the banker who works 80 hour weeks for similar percentage of wage-to-output, because he is happy to do this job in the interim to support his lifestyle.

Through this captialism, countries such as China have become charity-possitive where as without it, they would be charity-negative... which is a good indication of a country's standing. If they didn't produce products that us westeners wanted, waste or not, then they would be in dire need of hand-outs.
( G/PP 💩💩💩💩💩&#128, Mon 11 Jul 2011, 19:23, Reply)

Where I believe a 'wrong' is done, is somewhere around the level of the factory owners who live in mansions where as their workers live in pure poverty (but less poverty than their unemployeed).

( G/PP 💩💩💩💩💩&#128, Mon 11 Jul 2011, 19:24, Reply)

I can't remember where I read this, I believe it was in relation to the BBC, but they're saying that their highest earner won't earn more than 20x their lowest.
I like that.
( G/PP 💩💩💩💩💩&#128, Mon 11 Jul 2011, 19:25, Reply)

where's that? In china?

( Citizen Cavy Admires your passion for conformity, Mon 11 Jul 2011, 19:34, Reply)

No, I mean they're going to imploy that policy at the BBC

( G/PP 💩💩💩💩💩&#128, Mon 11 Jul 2011, 19:36, Reply)

nice

( Citizen Cavy Admires your passion for conformity, Mon 11 Jul 2011, 19:38, Reply)

re. the banker - I think this is a totally different
situation than someone who is working crappy conditions to survive/send money back to their families

re. the other bit: I'm not completely against industrialisation and capitalism, clearly they have produced some great things, but I can't see that our current situation is stable and not ultimately destructive
( Citizen Cavy Admires your passion for conformity, Mon 11 Jul 2011, 19:33, Reply)