Can a "reasonable person" ever be provoked into killing someone else?
I'm excluding circumstances where the law would offer a separate defence like being bonkers or killing in self-defence.

I'm not convinced that anyone could ever do something so provocative to me that I would kill them.
( WormuIus, Tue 17 Aug 2010, 11:33, 98 replies, latest was 16 years ago)

Well Dot helped killed Ethel in EastEnders.
And she is a proper God botherer.

Aside from that, yes, I'm sure resonable people can be provoked into killing someone. Have you seen Straw Dogs?
( JeffTheDogFucker Can you dig it?, Tue 17 Aug 2010, 11:35, Reply)

No.
What happens in that?
( WormuIus, Tue 17 Aug 2010, 11:36, Reply)

Resonable man gets provoked into killing people.

( JeffTheDogFucker Can you dig it?, Tue 17 Aug 2010, 11:37, Reply)

What provokes him?

( WormuIus, Tue 17 Aug 2010, 11:43, Reply)

too many stupid questions

( SteveFrench Cardio is for homo's. do you even lift bro?, Tue 17 Aug 2010, 11:49, Reply)

Data died.

(PsychoChomp, Tue 17 Aug 2010, 11:51, Reply)

When I studied this in law
we had to study cases where blokes had abused their woman and the woman had just snapped and killed them one day, but it's rare for someone to kill someone else just out of the blue. Even with cases of road rage, you would have to have some underlying anger issues, which makes you the unreasonable man.

I don't think I could kill someone, even in self-defence. I'd probably adopt the foetal position until it was over.
( Kitty v1.0 desperately naive, Tue 17 Aug 2010, 11:36, Reply)

Wait which one?
Mother in law or father in law?

/coat
(tarbin tarbis, tarbit, tarbamus, tarbimus, tarbant, Tue 17 Aug 2010, 13:37, Reply)

I have kids
I'd kill anyone who harmed them
( sporters I’m sincerely gratitude to you, Tue 17 Aug 2010, 11:37, Reply)

i guess you don't have someone you love enough.
i'm a reasonable guy, but i doubt sincerely if i could, without lethal or at least considerable and overwhelming force, be prevented from choking the life out of someone if they really hurt someone i cared enough about and i caught them doing it.
(UppityDamnPrimate LET'S OPEN THIS F*CKING PIT UP, Tue 17 Aug 2010, 11:37, Reply)

yeah this
I'd like to think that if someone really hurt Wiggy I'd beat the living shit out of them. I probably don't have the physical strength to kill someone though.
( Kitty v1.0 desperately naive, Tue 17 Aug 2010, 11:40, Reply)

hire a hitman.

(lkjshaglkasjdhglkhjz lkcvl; g;aodh;owih, Tue 17 Aug 2010, 11:42, Reply)

oh this
I don't like getting my hands dirty.
( Kitty v1.0 desperately naive, Tue 17 Aug 2010, 11:52, Reply)

No, well people can very rarely wind me up to the point of wanting to punch them
and sometimes that's all it takes.
(PsychoChomp, Tue 17 Aug 2010, 11:38, Reply)

accidental killing following provocation is not that uncommon.

(lkjshaglkasjdhglkhjz lkcvl; g;aodh;owih, Tue 17 Aug 2010, 11:40, Reply)

You wouldn't need to rely on provocation as a defence though
unless you had an intention to kill (or inflict gbh) when you threw the punch.
( WormuIus, Tue 17 Aug 2010, 11:42, Reply)

what is this
'reasonable person' you talk of? stupid question moving on.
( SteveFrench Cardio is for homo's. do you even lift bro?, Tue 17 Aug 2010, 11:41, Reply)

The reasonable person is a judicial construct which embodies how any given person should behave in a given circumstance.

( WormuIus, Tue 17 Aug 2010, 11:42, Reply)

how in the name of French buggery
can it be decided how someone should behave in any situation? far too many factors to be considered especially with a topic like murder. You did say murder didn't you? not man slaughter or anything, the intent has to be there. It's just a game of what ifs and maybes I don't see the point.
( SteveFrench Cardio is for homo's. do you even lift bro?, Tue 17 Aug 2010, 11:47, Reply)

there are ways of defining a reasonable person
a whole list of them in fact, or the law could not function
( Amberl was stripey and dominated Europe, Tue 17 Aug 2010, 11:51, Reply)

who said it did function?

( SteveFrench Cardio is for homo's. do you even lift bro?, Tue 17 Aug 2010, 11:53, Reply)

me.

( Amberl was stripey and dominated Europe, Tue 17 Aug 2010, 11:55, Reply)

ha
You and old Wormpus obviously know your stuff on this one regarding the details and fine points etc but it's like the word normal. I find it completely meaningless. I don't like how terms are thrown around like reasonable person etc because my first thought is how the hell do you know they are reasonable? it's just ambiguous and massively assumptive.
( SteveFrench Cardio is for homo's. do you even lift bro?, Tue 17 Aug 2010, 12:00, Reply)

The way it is used is:
The facts are that Mr X stabbed Mr Y becuase Mr X had caught MR Y abusing his disabled son.

The jury have to decide whether those actions are consistent with what a reasonable person would have done in the same circumstances.

They can consider any personal quirks that Mr X has, but only in so far as they relate to the provocativeness of the provocation (calling a guy with a massive nose 'The Elephant Man' for instance) but not to Mr X's general capacity to be provoked (his short temper for instance)

It's all very confusing. What I'm trying to get at is What would provoke you into killing? Do you think you should be punished afterwards?
( WormuIus, Tue 17 Aug 2010, 12:19, Reply)

If you read my question you'll notice that I didn't use the word 'Murder' or 'Manslughter'
I know the law, I'm not really interested in talking about that.

My question is really 'What sort of circumstances can provoke an ordinary person into killing another human being (excluding things like killing in self-defence or where the ordinary person is rendered incapable)
( WormuIus, Tue 17 Aug 2010, 11:54, Reply)

In answer then
I imagine that child abuse of your child would provoke blind rage (not saying it's right just it would happen) quite probably enough to kill, especially if there was a knife/gun etc around. Or torture (exemplified in battered wife cases for example)
( Amberl was stripey and dominated Europe, Tue 17 Aug 2010, 11:58, Reply)

I really don't think I would fly into a blind rage
I'd probably just do what I always do and go into super-serious sensible mode.
I'd want the suspected abuser to stand trial and for me to be able to resume my life afterwards.
( WormuIus, Tue 17 Aug 2010, 12:01, Reply)

I am quite robotic though.

( WormuIus, Tue 17 Aug 2010, 12:02, Reply)

I am too
I've had many people say things like "I couldn't do what you do, if I saw that I'd want to kill them" etc. Me, I want to see Justice prevail.
( Labia Majora You keep on talking but it makes no sense at all, Tue 17 Aug 2010, 12:07, Reply)

Personally
I can't think of anything that would make me want to kill as I said below, apart from self defense. I suppose being raped might make me quite angry though, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't kill though. Maybe some GBH
( Amberl was stripey and dominated Europe, Tue 17 Aug 2010, 12:09, Reply)

careful here
MR for murder can be GBH.
( WormuIus, Tue 17 Aug 2010, 12:12, Reply)

true
but I wouldn't kill. I doubt I have the physical strength to kill someone, and the dodgiest bit of the law has always been the amount of time between provocation and action. I doubt I could justify going and finding a weapon to kill someone with
( Amberl was stripey and dominated Europe, Tue 17 Aug 2010, 12:14, Reply)

You don't need the strength or the weapon
It's the intent that counts. I assume that, if you were attacked and you pushed them off and ran, it would be fair to say that murder was not your intent. If you stopped to put the boot in, that becomes less clear.
( Labia Majora You keep on talking but it makes no sense at all, Tue 17 Aug 2010, 12:18, Reply)

It's a tricky one though.
If I'm in a fight and genuinely doubt it's going to end with the standard mild to moderate beating, and if by some fluke I knock the other guy down, I'm going to make damn sure he doesn't get up again to come after me once I've legged it. Admittedly I'd probably stamp on his knee rather than his head, but I suspect that would probably still get me ABH/GBH.
(wellgroomedwookiee is a filthy-minded hobgoblin, Tue 17 Aug 2010, 12:23, Reply)

only if you thought kicking them was liable to kill. Though as far as I remember a pre-existing condition like in R v Ruby is no defense if they do happen to be susceptible.
( Amberl was stripey and dominated Europe, Tue 17 Aug 2010, 12:27, Reply)

Right
No intent to kill or cause BGH, no murder conviction, however, it raises a new issue of excessive force in self-defence as a defence to Unlawful Act MS.
( WormuIus, Tue 17 Aug 2010, 12:30, Reply)

hard to define excessive force
particularly since self defence can kick in before any actual hurt is caused. Just have to feel threatened really
( Amberl was stripey and dominated Europe, Tue 17 Aug 2010, 12:32, Reply)

what's an ordinary person?

( SteveFrench Cardio is for homo's. do you even lift bro?, Tue 17 Aug 2010, 12:02, Reply)

I'm using it synonymously with 'Reasonable Man'
Which I explained above.
( WormuIus, Tue 17 Aug 2010, 12:13, Reply)

I know Mr Roboto
I was being facetious. I was merely reinforcing my point.
( SteveFrench Cardio is for homo's. do you even lift bro?, Tue 17 Aug 2010, 12:17, Reply)

I've fleshed it out a bit for you.
See above.
( WormuIus, Tue 17 Aug 2010, 12:21, Reply)

I understand it
I'm not angry with you I am irritated with the way everything has to be compartmentalised, including people. I don't have an alternative though so I just have to accept it. I just think it's a little naive calling people ordinary or normal.

Would I kill someone? and if so what would they have to do? God knows I hope never to find out.
( SteveFrench Cardio is for homo's. do you even lift bro?, Tue 17 Aug 2010, 12:26, Reply)

Are you also excluding situations like war
Or armed police who shoot a guy before that guy can shoot the hostage? People who are trained in the use of weapons, and where killing someone arguably falls within what's expected of their job (ok, armed police aren't expected to always kill, but you know what I mean).
I hope you don't find my ignorant questioning irritating, I do find this quite fascinating, and like to devil's advocate and hypothesise on these sorts of things.
( Labia Majora You keep on talking but it makes no sense at all, Tue 17 Aug 2010, 12:06, Reply)

"I'm excluding circumstances where the law would offer a separate defence like being bonkers or killing in self-defence."
In each of those circumstances the law offers a defence to that killing.

See also: turning off a life-support machine or performing surgery to separate a parasitic conjoined twin.
( WormuIus, Tue 17 Aug 2010, 12:08, Reply)

Thought as much, but wanted to clarify
Still thinking...
( Labia Majora You keep on talking but it makes no sense at all, Tue 17 Aug 2010, 12:15, Reply)

Yes
There was a famous psychological experiment done (and redone countless times with numerous variations), where they got members of the public and told them that, if they pushed a button, the person they can see in another room would be given a shock, which would increase in power until it proved fatal. Of course, the other person was an actor, and not actually shocked.

Some of the variations on the theme is them being rewarded for pushing the button, or told that the 'victim' was a serial killer etc.

Not all subjects pushed the button until the victim died, but apparently some did.
( Labia Majora You keep on talking but it makes no sense at all, Tue 17 Aug 2010, 11:43, Reply)

I'm well aware of this experiment. It is very famous.
I'm not sure I see the relevance though.
( WormuIus, Tue 17 Aug 2010, 11:44, Reply)

It's relevant in that
Someone, who could be taken to be 'reasonable', is being successfully provoked into committing murder.

You could argue that by the subject showing the proclivity to murder, that they are not 'reasonable', but that's with the benefit of hindsight.
( Labia Majora You keep on talking but it makes no sense at all, Tue 17 Aug 2010, 11:46, Reply)

Forgive me, but that isn't being 'provoked', it's being 'encouraged'

( WormuIus, Tue 17 Aug 2010, 11:49, Reply)

people just need to be given
a reason and a figure of authority to justify it
( Citizen Cavy Admires your passion for conformity, Tue 17 Aug 2010, 11:49, Reply)

It was a whole group of experiments by Milgrim
It was about obedience, how far people will go following orders from a authority figure.
(PsychoChomp, Tue 17 Aug 2010, 11:47, Reply)

See also Stanford prison.

(PsychoChomp, Tue 17 Aug 2010, 11:47, Reply)

That's it, I didn't study it, just have read about it
You could argue that following orders to kill is provocation, and thus fits the original question.
( Labia Majora You keep on talking but it makes no sense at all, Tue 17 Aug 2010, 11:48, Reply)

Only if you didn't know what the word 'provocation' meant.

( WormuIus, Tue 17 Aug 2010, 11:49, Reply)

Apologies
I wrongly assumed you could provoke someone else to do something to a third party, rather than provocation being a strict two-party affair (victim provoking assailant).
( Labia Majora You keep on talking but it makes no sense at all, Tue 17 Aug 2010, 11:52, Reply)

it is possible to have 3rd party provocation
but Wormulus is still right, they weren't provoked to kill, merely encouraged
( Amberl was stripey and dominated Europe, Tue 17 Aug 2010, 11:53, Reply)

Would encouragement become provocation
If there was a penalty for not going through with the task? (and assuming no prize for doing it)
( Labia Majora You keep on talking but it makes no sense at all, Tue 17 Aug 2010, 11:54, Reply)

no
it might become coercion (though coercion is not a defense as it happens for murder) but it's still not provocation
( Amberl was stripey and dominated Europe, Tue 17 Aug 2010, 11:56, Reply)

Gotcha, thanks :)

( Labia Majora You keep on talking but it makes no sense at all, Tue 17 Aug 2010, 11:56, Reply)

If the penalty was serious harm to you or to people personally know to you or you or their property
then you can offer a defence of duress to certain crimes. Not an unlawful killing though.
( WormuIus, Tue 17 Aug 2010, 11:57, Reply)

As far as I remember
from my distant A-level in the subject, I reckon a reasonable person can be provoked. There was a case where someone had abused someone else's child, and when the father found out he killed the abuser. Also several battered wife cases where there was a straw that broke the camel's back- that one who set her husband on fire for example. While I'm not sure that there are any circumstances where I could kill someone apart from self defence, I'm pretty sure that there are ways people can be provoked enough to kill
( Amberl was stripey and dominated Europe, Tue 17 Aug 2010, 11:46, Reply)

Kiranjit Ahluwalia

( WormuIus, Tue 17 Aug 2010, 11:48, Reply)

Bless you

(PsychoChomp, Tue 17 Aug 2010, 11:49, Reply)

Interesting case that.

( WormuIus, Tue 17 Aug 2010, 11:50, Reply)

good memory there
I do remember she walked out free after the time she had already spent in jail. The judge gave her precisely that size of a sentence.
( Amberl was stripey and dominated Europe, Tue 17 Aug 2010, 11:50, Reply)

Whole thing could have been avoided if we didn't have mandatory sentencing for murder.

( WormuIus, Tue 17 Aug 2010, 11:58, Reply)

is this
part of a plan?
( Citizen Cavy Admires your passion for conformity, Tue 17 Aug 2010, 11:54, Reply)

My wife's uncle barged through the back door in to the kitchen and tried to strangle her
I was holding my daughter who was a new born at the time so managed to push him off and call the police and he legged it. I am pretty sure that if I had been cooking and was holding a knife instead of a baby I would have stabbed him, it might not have killed him but if it had I wouldn't have felt in the slightest bit guilty, he had his hands round my wife's neck. I wonder what the law would do in that circumstance.
( Peej, Tue 17 Aug 2010, 12:00, Reply)

You could try self-defence/provocation
It's the knife that makes it tricky.
I suspect a jury would let you off.
( WormuIus, Tue 17 Aug 2010, 12:04, Reply)

I certainly wouldn't actively look for a knife
but it was in the kitchen and I could have been legitimately holding one at the time.
( Peej, Tue 17 Aug 2010, 12:05, Reply)

Did you genuinely believe that your wife was going to be seriously hurt?
Was there anything else you could have done?
( WormuIus, Tue 17 Aug 2010, 12:07, Reply)

He's mental she definitely fears for her life now
I'm pretty sure if she was alone she would be dead. Some old family feud about money. There obviously was something else I could have done because I did it but I'm just saying that despite me being a reasonable person I am pretty sure that if I happened to be holding a knife at the time I would have stabbed him without a seconds thought.
( Peej, Tue 17 Aug 2010, 12:09, Reply)

If he hadn't died
you'd have been fine.

If he died, possibly not.
( WormuIus, Tue 17 Aug 2010, 12:11, Reply)

Do your own homework.

( fuck shit up the best you never had, Tue 17 Aug 2010, 12:02, Reply)

Haven't started my course yet, just something I've been grappling with.
Wanted to get some gut responses.
( WormuIus, Tue 17 Aug 2010, 12:05, Reply)

From internet autisms? Good basis there

( fuck shit up the best you never had, Tue 17 Aug 2010, 12:09, Reply)

How are you anyway?

( WormuIus, Tue 17 Aug 2010, 12:11, Reply)

Pretty good, haven't maimed or killed anyone, so its a good day so far
It is considered a reasonable act to spit beer at someone who hurts your neck?
( fuck shit up the best you never had, Tue 17 Aug 2010, 12:29, Reply)

That's a battery
provocation provides no defence.
( WormuIus, Tue 17 Aug 2010, 12:42, Reply)

Oh well, I guess I won't be seeing him again then

( fuck shit up the best you never had, Tue 17 Aug 2010, 12:46, Reply)

Euthanasia maybe?
Is there a separate defense for that?

Of course, just because I decide you're better off dead doesn't mean you'll necessarily agree...
(wellgroomedwookiee is a filthy-minded hobgoblin, Tue 17 Aug 2010, 12:13, Reply)

Killing in pursuance of a suicide pact
separate body of law. I'm not sure how you can be 'provoked' into assisting in a suicide.
( WormuIus, Tue 17 Aug 2010, 12:14, Reply)

Sympathy/empathy. Its hard to watch someone you love dying in front of you.

( fuck shit up the best you never had, Tue 17 Aug 2010, 12:35, Reply)

Euthanasia wouldn't be a provokation, though.
"It was reasonable, your honour. He just kept on having cancer at me. What would you have done?"
( Enzyme is powered by sunlight, Tue 17 Aug 2010, 12:35, Reply)

Yes, this happens frequently. It's called war.

( Dr Preference AjcuiVd289, Tue 17 Aug 2010, 12:23, Reply)

well done on not reading the question

( WormuIus, Tue 17 Aug 2010, 12:43, Reply)

I'm not answering your question at all now, but I'm curious.
What about pushing a fatty onto a bomb to contain the blast? Technically I guess you've killed him, although he may well have died in the blast anyway, but maybe you've saved a couple of other people.
(wellgroomedwookiee is a filthy-minded hobgoblin, Tue 17 Aug 2010, 12:28, Reply)

No defence

( WormuIus, Tue 17 Aug 2010, 12:50, Reply)

does a double dare count as provocation?

( Vipros. clever got me this far, then tricky got me in, Tue 17 Aug 2010, 12:31, Reply)

Double Dog Dare
Counts as duty.
( Labia Majora You keep on talking but it makes no sense at all, Tue 17 Aug 2010, 12:32, Reply)

I believe a
Double Donkey Dare trumps a Double Dog Dare
( sporters I’m sincerely gratitude to you, Tue 17 Aug 2010, 12:34, Reply)

I would say yes, for sure.
But I'm not terribly reasonable so I wouldn't listen to me.
( Monty Boyce, My cheese game is strong, Tue 17 Aug 2010, 12:43, Reply)

If I ever learn to kill people with my mind this will happen all the time.
If I have to keep using a hammer, no.
(wellgroomedwookiee is a filthy-minded hobgoblin, Tue 17 Aug 2010, 12:48, Reply)

It's a First World question.
You've (Most likely, I have no idea about anything thats ever happpened in your life) never been in a situation where a local warlord or whatever has come to your farm and raped your wife and kids, burned your house down etc, or there's just one person standing between you and your family starving to death, or one of probably millions of reasons that otherwise "reasonable people" are probably provoked into committing acts they otherwise wouldn't have done everyday. We live in a relative paradise beyond the means of most of the rest of the planet where we don't have to really worry about food supplies, crime etc, etc, so its very easy to say that you could never be provoked into killing.
(Spleep Shit, or get off the internet., Tue 17 Aug 2010, 12:49, Reply)

Your point is that the circumstances would have to be pretty extreme and are unlikely to occur in England and Wales.
Yeah, that's kind of my point as well.
( WormuIus, Tue 17 Aug 2010, 12:54, Reply)

Okay
If you took away every single reason why people commit murder, then yeah, there is is no reason for anyone to ever kill anyone else. Its not much of an argument though, is it?

I kinda agree with you, though.
(Spleep Shit, or get off the internet., Tue 17 Aug 2010, 12:59, Reply)

Scotland, however...

( Monty Boyce, My cheese game is strong, Tue 17 Aug 2010, 13:36, Reply)

Oh, Scotland doesn't count as civilized
everyone knows that.
(Spleep Shit, or get off the internet., Tue 17 Aug 2010, 13:37, Reply)