You didn't respond to this
www.b3ta.com/questions/offtopic/post1188221

And I am still utterly baffled how you can argue that it isn't a fairer system from the point of view of the majority of the electorate.
(Bazongaloid, Tue 3 May 2011, 15:08, 2 replies, latest was 15 years ago)

Let's face it, you were baffled by a mediocre debating style and a nice tie.

( Monty Boyce, My cheese game is strong, Tue 3 May 2011, 15:12, Reply)

Yes Monty, the grown ups are discussing something which actually is important
so why don't you fuck off and complain about the influx of asians in your neighbourhood.
(Bazongaloid, Tue 3 May 2011, 15:14, Reply)

It's not important at all.
How is it important? We've changed from a Labour Government to a Conservative one and back again since I was born, and now have a 'different' one again, but save some minor changes to rates of taxation this has made bugger all difference to the lives of most British citizens.
( Monty Boyce, My cheese game is strong, Tue 3 May 2011, 15:17, Reply)

No, to someone who won't engage in politics, but still moans about the schools in their area, it probably isn't important
but to anyone with a brain who can see the stupidity of the above stance, it is pretty important.
(Bazongaloid, Tue 3 May 2011, 15:19, Reply)

The schools are no better nor worse now
than they were a year ago under Labour - a supposedly completely different political system. Tinkering with the electoral procedure is even less important. If you can change the government in its entirety and still make sod all difference, how is this referendum important?
( Monty Boyce, My cheese game is strong, Tue 3 May 2011, 15:21, Reply)

Well blow me down, you've totally proven your point there.
That is unequivocal proof staring me right in the face. I totally stand corrected.
(Bazongaloid, Tue 3 May 2011, 15:22, Reply)

Tell me how choosing goverment by AV would affect the lives of most British citizens.
I'm interested to know.
( Monty Boyce, My cheese game is strong, Tue 3 May 2011, 15:25, Reply)

It's easy to beat The Man
if he's made of straw.
( Kroney, Tue 3 May 2011, 15:28, Reply)

Quite

(Bazongaloid, Tue 3 May 2011, 15:30, Reply)

It'd make sure all people of voting age can count to five!

( Lampito rise with the moon, go to bed with the sun, Tue 3 May 2011, 15:29, Reply)

I am inclined to agree with your earlier comments about the civil service.
Party politics is really only about the direction of society, the civil service implements this after advising the parties what is achievable within the existing framework.

There is an interesting article in the current Economist on "direct democracy" and where it can lead (California). Equally there are places like Switzerland that are successful in ruling by committees of the people.
(Set your faces to Stunned Bigly, Tue 3 May 2011, 15:32, Reply)

No, you're wrong:
I am apparently some kind of imbecile because I can see through the hot air and flash that constitutes democratic politics and has done since the C5th BC.
( Monty Boyce, My cheese game is strong, Tue 3 May 2011, 15:36, Reply)

It's true Monty
you alone are the one who has realised the participation in politics is a waste of time. If only everybody thought like you eh, if only.

We'd a be a massive shower of washed up cunts with fucked up personal lives.
(Bazongaloid, Tue 3 May 2011, 15:41, Reply)

Ah, so voting would resolve the issues I have in my private life, now?
Wow, I really should get involved.
( Monty Boyce, My cheese game is strong, Tue 3 May 2011, 15:47, Reply)

showering and washing
would be an improvement for a lot of leftie types
( rachelswipe with a fork, Tue 3 May 2011, 15:51, Reply)

Can we do religion now?
I'd like to hear your cretinous ramblings on monotheistic societies.
(Set your faces to Stunned Bigly, Tue 3 May 2011, 15:41, Reply)

Sure: organised religion is bad news and for cunts.

( Monty Boyce, My cheese game is strong, Tue 3 May 2011, 15:44, Reply)

Agreed.
*dusts off hands*

Pint?
(Set your faces to Stunned Bigly, Tue 3 May 2011, 15:47, Reply)

Love one.

( Monty Boyce, My cheese game is strong, Tue 3 May 2011, 15:47, Reply)

You're not THAT old Monty

( Amberl was stripey and dominated Europe, Tue 3 May 2011, 15:44, Reply)

I fucking feel like it.

( Monty Boyce, My cheese game is strong, Tue 3 May 2011, 15:45, Reply)

I'm pro-AV because I think it's fairer, but you're right, I don't think the services that day people use will change much.
My local MP debates law and all that buisness, but when it comes down to management of the services the NHS provides, or the DWP, or anything else... it seems down to people who have jobs for the sake of having jobs.

If I could elect one law into play, it would be that no civil servent should earn more than the PM. It's rediculous that 'councilers' can get £200k for doing not much more than sitting on a board and deciding on the flowers outside the goverment offices (god forbid they make a desision that is actually important).

What I read about Tower Hamlets makes ill, one of the pourest boroughs in london yet they're spending £40k on celeb apperances for "staff moral".
( G/PP 💩💩💩💩💩&#128, Tue 3 May 2011, 15:47, Reply)

I sold Tower Hamlets seven chairs for a frankly obscene amount of money last year,
They could have bought some perfectly serviceable ones from Viking for £12 each and bought some school books with the change. Because it's 'public' money and not private this shit gets signed off all day long, 'austerity measures' or not - and I bet you this would be the case no matter which party is in 'power'.

I don't really have a point here other than 'they're all cunts'
( Monty Boyce, My cheese game is strong, Tue 3 May 2011, 15:51, Reply)

How much was the NHS's computer system? £125m or something like that?
I don't get it, as a programer, let's say you're paying every program £50kpa, that would get you a team of programers that is 2500 strong.

Think about that, I very much doubt the 'Windows 7' team comes to that size.
( G/PP 💩💩💩💩💩&#128, Tue 3 May 2011, 15:56, Reply)

The amount of money wasted by lazy public sector managers is obscene.

( Monty Boyce, My cheese game is strong, Tue 3 May 2011, 15:59, Reply)

It's disgusting, it really is.
and it's even worst when it goes to companies that aren't even from this country, like ATOS
( G/PP 💩💩💩💩💩&#128, Tue 3 May 2011, 16:09, Reply)

We've still got time
to change things. The changes Labour made to education were sweeping and quite radical in a lot of ways. It's going to take time to move on from that.
( Amberl was stripey and dominated Europe, Tue 3 May 2011, 15:26, Reply)

All I can say is
having lived under two supposedly diametrically opposed systems the effect on the day to life of most people is negligible.
( Monty Boyce, My cheese game is strong, Tue 3 May 2011, 15:28, Reply)

Well, you flatter them by calling them
"diametrically opposed." The only difference seems to be whether they're proud or slightly embarrassed about having been sent to Eton.
(LongJohnBaldry, Tue 3 May 2011, 15:35, Reply)

Av would lead to even more "centre clustering" and even less choice
as all the least offensive to either end of the spectrum would get in
( Naked Ape call me Caitlyn, Tue 3 May 2011, 15:41, Reply)

Is that a bad thing?
Government by alternating extreme parties is hardly getting us anywhere.
( Bartleby A dead man on vacation, Tue 3 May 2011, 15:44, Reply)

Neither the Tories nor Labour or even the Lib dems these days could be called extreme
they all occupy a centre left/right stance
( Naked Ape call me Caitlyn, Tue 3 May 2011, 15:49, Reply)

I find this is due to wanting to be popular, rather than real conviction.
A strong labour government would inevitably go left, just as the strong tory goverments of the 80's headed up the Unter Dem Linden.
( Bartleby A dead man on vacation, Tue 3 May 2011, 15:53, Reply)

I went and had a nap, sorry
been terribly tired for ages now.

My response would be the same as it was in the post above. There is a difference between getting the person you want and a person you can just about tolerate. It's no fairer having a Lib Dem MP because a lot of people can tolerate it, than your first choice of Tory/Labour even though they got more first votes.

In fact if we're talking fairness, wasn't it a LibDem commission that found it was actually even less proportional? Shouldn't that be the direction we're moving in, if we want genuine reform, rather than this half arsed measure?
( Amberl was stripey and dominated Europe, Tue 3 May 2011, 15:24, Reply)

You know as well as I do
that if the vote is a No, the Tories will contiune to use this as evidence that people don't want reform.

Most electoral systems change gradually, so this small change to a slightly fairer system is part of (hopefully) a gradual change to a better representation system.

I guess it's difficult for you to see because, as a Tory, I presume you don't really have another party that you might agree with, possibly UKIP I suppose, but you represent the minority of voters. About 30% in the last election.

Most people have a second preference and would like to be able to make that clear, but because you don't have a second preference you feel it's okay to deny others that right.
(Bazongaloid, Tue 3 May 2011, 15:29, Reply)

Still more by %'age that the other two polled individually.

(Set your faces to Stunned Bigly, Tue 3 May 2011, 15:34, Reply)

So the largest minority
But still a minority.

And with most individual MPs (on both sides) being elected with minority votes. And that's the big change AV would have. It would lead to MPs being more representative of MOST of their electorate, not just the largest minority.
(Bazongaloid, Tue 3 May 2011, 15:37, Reply)

Without reference to the AV vote.
I'm not sure I'm that bothered about the largest minority winning, I probably read this somewhere but it's like "you picked the loser, now let's consider your vote".

I do get where you are coming from though. It's a bodge because it formed part of the coalition agreement which gave both parties something and nothing of what they wanted.
(Set your faces to Stunned Bigly, Tue 3 May 2011, 15:44, Reply)

I'm not sure that making assumptions about peoples preferences is a good argument
I believe change could be good for the voting system, but AV isn't it. AV promotes mediocity over greatness, caution over decisive action and inoffensiveness over interest.

the best argument I can think of against is the disaster that having Ed miliband instead of David has been and will continue to be for Labour.
( Naked Ape call me Caitlyn, Tue 3 May 2011, 15:36, Reply)

It's terrible that you associate being able to get over half the people voting to positively aceed to your views with you with mediocrity and inoffensiveness.

(Bazongaloid, Tue 3 May 2011, 15:40, Reply)

As you've siad yourself up there
many people may have a second choice, but a third, forth or even fifth? People will simply put a cross by anyone who the don't not like, therefore by running your campaign on non contraversial subjects you can win. Mediocre.
( Naked Ape call me Caitlyn, Tue 3 May 2011, 15:43, Reply)

You don't need to give a third or fourth preference, or even a second if you don't want to
Did you not know that?
(Bazongaloid, Tue 3 May 2011, 15:52, Reply)

labour is its own disaster though
every labour government we've had has ended up in an economic black hole, and the last shower of self-interested lying deceitful cunts was no exception.
( rachelswipe with a fork, Tue 3 May 2011, 15:49, Reply)

Al do you mind not insinuating
that just because I'm a Tory, I'm a racist who would vote for UKIP or the BNP? That's just lazy, and rather poor.

Do you really think that getting AV, is a step along the way to a better system? Or do you acknowledge that perhaps the impetus will have faded. I think the chances of it changing some more are fairly slight.

I'm sure as a LibDem your second choice would be Green, with all the bizarrely stupid notions that go with that. Most people do NOT have a second choice that they'd quite like. A large percentage can't even name the parties let alone tell you a policy. Stop making assumptions based on your own political slant.
( Amberl was stripey and dominated Europe, Tue 3 May 2011, 15:43, Reply)

Are you calling him poor?

(PsychoChomp, Tue 3 May 2011, 15:50, Reply)

He's not poor.
He sands his floorboards ffs.
( girlinthehole, Tue 3 May 2011, 15:51, Reply)

CLICK

( Roota zweeeeeoooooowm, Tue 3 May 2011, 15:55, Reply)

I'm not insinuating that at all, UKIP aren't a racist party, and you're the only one mentioning the BNP
I don't like UKIP, but they have clear policies and I can see some of their views appealing to "typical Tory voters".

Without taking the first step, I would be surprised if electoral reform is discussed again for thirty to forty years, and more than likely, it will be the same shit compromise. AV is a small step to a slightly better system, but you know damned well that the Tories would do anything they could to stop any kind of PR system getting into place.

I'm not talking about most people, I'm talking about most people that vote, which, while it ought to be the same, clearly isn't given the depressingly low turnouts.

And most people who have left leaning views would probably vote labour or lib dem, or possibly green, but some would like to vote green but since they know in their borough they will only get a few hundred votes, would prefer to see Labour than the Tories.
(Bazongaloid, Tue 3 May 2011, 15:51, Reply)

UKIP and racism are hardly singing from opposite hymn sheets
the members of UKIP I know, tend to be of the 'send them all back' sort, so I still find it offensive. I'm still not sure why you seem to think their policies and the Tories are allied.

I really don't think that just voting, implies a) an understanding of AV and b) a genuine belief in a secondary political party. Out of interest would Labour be your second choice?
( Amberl was stripey and dominated Europe, Tue 3 May 2011, 15:56, Reply)

How about you stop being so precious. I didn't call you a racist, you brought that up yourself, I made a guess as to another political party which you might have felt an affinity for if you weren't able to choose a Tory candidate. UKIP occupy the centre right of politics, similar to the Tories but I'm not getting into an in depth discussion of them or their politics.

The point about the preference is that you don't have to give a second preference if you don't have one, but, as has been demonstrated by surveys, a lot of people DO have second preferences.
(Bazongaloid, Tue 3 May 2011, 16:04, Reply)

Ask the average person how they feel
about being pegged as a UKIP voter and you'll get much the same response. I don't think it's being precious.

As I've already said, neither of us are ever going to convince the other, for all of the reasons we've given. I don't think for a possibly slightly fairer system it's worth all the bad points, and you don't think that the bad points are enough of a reason not to vote for it.
( Amberl was stripey and dominated Europe, Tue 3 May 2011, 16:12, Reply)

I can't see the bad points you're talking about.

(Bazongaloid, Tue 3 May 2011, 16:13, Reply)

I think the most important point he makes
Is that if AV doesn't go through, the chances of us moving towards PR will be squashed further than if it does. (This is, I realise, only a bad thing if you are in favour of PR.)

I don't think anybody ever said AV was a panacea to cure the shortcomings of FPTP, but I'd be very interested to see what effect is has if it does go through.
(LongJohnBaldry, Tue 3 May 2011, 15:51, Reply)

I would much rather have a proper representative system
than the proposed. This system really isn't going to change who gets in where, as far as I can see and so I'm tending towards a No vote.

Al is right in his point that the Tories are going to wave a successful No campaign in front of Parliament and shout "see? SEE?", which brings me back to a Yes vote, even though I happen to think that this particular proposed change is almost completely without merit.
( Kroney, Tue 3 May 2011, 15:45, Reply)

One thing is for sure,
A no vote will be the last time we gat a chance of change. At least a yes vote sets a precedent that may allow a further refferendum about proportional representation some time in the future.
( Bartleby A dead man on vacation, Tue 3 May 2011, 15:48, Reply)

Who gives a shit, if the man on the street gets a say in the running of the Country it can only be a bad thing

( Light In Chains maker of the ikea sofa, Tue 3 May 2011, 15:51, Reply)

the man on the clapham omnibus?
clearly he lives south of the river and therefore his opinion should be irrelevant
( rachelswipe with a fork, Tue 3 May 2011, 15:54, Reply)

Oi
Facking leeeeve it aht, you slaaaaag.
(Set your faces to Stunned Bigly, Tue 3 May 2011, 15:55, Reply)

Yeah that cunt, who the fuck is he, some 1930's caricature who no longer exists that's who

( Light In Chains maker of the ikea sofa, Tue 3 May 2011, 15:57, Reply)

The man on the street is a cunt.

( Monty Boyce, My cheese game is strong, Tue 3 May 2011, 15:56, Reply)

Well that's my point, why bother with demoracy
Every mouthbreathing clueless cunt has a 'say' in the direction of the Country. I don't remember the class mong being consulted on the lesson plan by the teacher
( Light In Chains maker of the ikea sofa, Tue 3 May 2011, 15:59, Reply)

*shakes hands*
Democracy is fundamentally flawed due to the idiocy of the demos.
( Monty Boyce, My cheese game is strong, Tue 3 May 2011, 16:01, Reply)

How about one person, one vote but.....
If there is a hung parliament, the leader with the biggest willy wins. If the leader is female then second in commmand get's his willy out.

It's a win win situation if you ask me.
( girlinthehole, Tue 3 May 2011, 15:49, Reply)

So we have a single transferable willy system.

( Bartleby A dead man on vacation, Tue 3 May 2011, 15:51, Reply)

And happier MP's secretaries.

( girlinthehole, Tue 3 May 2011, 15:52, Reply)

If they had equal size penises
Then perhaps they should have a "Shag off".

Who could adjudicate? Can't think of anyone.
(Set your faces to Stunned Bigly, Tue 3 May 2011, 15:51, Reply)

Charlie Sheen?

( girlinthehole, Tue 3 May 2011, 15:52, Reply)

Mr Sheen?

(Set your faces to Stunned Bigly, Tue 3 May 2011, 15:54, Reply)

Some old hasbeen?

( girlinthehole, Tue 3 May 2011, 15:55, Reply)

Barry Sheen?

( Bartleby A dead man on vacation, Tue 3 May 2011, 15:55, Reply)

To vent your spleen?

(Set your faces to Stunned Bigly, Tue 3 May 2011, 16:02, Reply)