Interesting that this topic came up today....
...as I find myself needing to make a serious decision about my future.

Im in love with a Carol. She is 5 years older than me and lives quite far away. We get on very well indeed, and if I were to take the plunge, she would be happy for me to move in with her. She is beautifull, smart, fun, witty...we really enjoy each others company.
Sounds perfect?
The problem is that she has 2 kids from her first marriage.
Her first husband died a few years back after a long, nasty, shitty illnes, which seemingly turned him into a bit of a cunt towards the end. (what Im told from her friends, I never met him.
Her oldest daughter is 15 and after a bumpy start and the old "im not trying to replace your father" talk, we now get on ok.
The youngest....well, Im not a fan of young kids anyway, but this thing is the devil incarnate.
Carol and her first husband tried for a long time to have a second child, and after several miscarriages, serious illnesses, an infant death and more miscarriages, she finally had Chloe, not long before her husband died, so the child is very precious to her.
Sadly, Carol has let this child have her own way all the time and she is now completely insufferable. Yeah, most kids have tantrums every now and then, but chloe has them several times a day, at ear-splitting levels. I would never have thought a child could produce such noises. NOTHING will appease the tantrum except her getting what she wants, whether its sweets from the shop, or sitting up all night watching dvd`s, or being allowed to write on the living room walls with a marker pen etc etc.
If chloe does this when I am there, I just dont know what to do... in the middle of a supermarket, she will throw herself on the floor, thrash about and scream loud enough to bring security guards running.... I cant stand it, and Carol lets her get away with it.
The child is comepletely undiciplined, throws food at mealtimes, scatters stuff all over the house and never tidies, expects her mum to jump whenever she shouts for something, she lacks basic manners, will never say please or thankyou but DEMANDS and if the demand isnt met, a screaming tantrum is certain to follow.

If it wasnt for the child, I would leave everything I have here tomorrow to be with Carol, but I detest the child. I know that carol is to blame for the way she has been brought up, and I just dont want anything to do with the child. Sadly, this brats upbringing is going to kill my relationship with Carol.

:(
(dave likes cheese, Thu 9 Oct 2008, 22:53, 24 replies)

So teach the little shit some manners.
If you don't love her kids, it's doomed.
( Digeridude Lord Wellington's Beef Trapeze, Thu 9 Oct 2008, 23:02, closed)

Take them
on holiday to Portugal
(LickOutTheJamsMotherfuckers!, Thu 9 Oct 2008, 23:04, closed)

^
win
(pineappleunderthesea mortal enemy of the apple since, Thu 9 Oct 2008, 23:15, closed)

that sucks
maybe as time goes on the little shit will grow up. or not. resist the urge to kill her anyway, its at least 10 years for kiddie murder.

talk to relate, there a relationships counselling charity, they will put you in touch with people who can help your situation.

all the best
(mr kyle he's a silly bastard, the one who posted before me, Thu 9 Oct 2008, 23:04, closed)

You have my sympathy
Sorry I don't have anything else to offer, it seems an impossible situation.

Good luck
(Just_Mister, Thu 9 Oct 2008, 23:07, closed)

talk to her
sorry, posting error... see below
( frox, Thu 9 Oct 2008, 23:09, closed)

talk to her
but don't tell her "I detest the child" :-)

Talk to he, and tell her the child needs some care.

Don't offend here but obviously the child and the mother needs professional care

When a child does like this it's often because she feels that all roads are open for her, and a parental "guidance" of sort is what they really need. Imagine being a 10-year old without anyone there to tell you what's right and what's wrong.... It's more awful for the child than it's for you.

Sure, you need balls, but if the mother is really important for you and if she accepts the fact that the child has a problem then step forward and be there, giving the guidance this child needs.

"Im not a fan of young kids anyway"
Well, that's a good reason NOT to fall in love with a woman with children...
( frox, Thu 9 Oct 2008, 23:12, closed)

Talk to her and tell her this
You could show her this too:

www.snopes.com/glurge/12rules.asp

The bullet points, not the snopes page.
( vix0r was not Matthew on, Thu 9 Oct 2008, 23:14, closed)

hmmm, probably doomed
and that's damn sad, but fact of the matter is - you will probably never be as important to her as her child is to her, even if you're very important to her.
( crackhouseceilidhband Fuck off back to Mumsnet, Thu 9 Oct 2008, 23:15, closed)

i'm inclined to agree
speaking from experience, my ex had a 5 year old son who was exactly the way chloe here is described. i tried to encourage the boy to behave appropriately, as my own sprogs managed to, without success. all my efforts were ruined the moment his dad walked in. if i brought attention to anything bad the kid did, his dad just looked at me in disgust and would say 'how dare you tell me or MY SON what to do?'. my kids and i were second class citizens in our home.
after 3 years we split up and i got my self respect back.

i hope you can resolve your situation with more success than i did!
( gypsy turnips, Wed 15 Oct 2008, 16:45, closed)

unless
the kid has a bone fide disorder this can prob be fixed in a few days. Well if you get supernanny in.
( I have run out of coke is a little sweaty, Fri 10 Oct 2008, 0:16, closed)

Oh dear
'Spoilt' really does meant just that - she wanted so much to have another lovely child and by completely bypassing discipline she's basically squandered her chance to produce a decent human being. I've actually worked in childrens' homes where kids have been forcibly removed from their parents' houses due to lack of discipline like this which meant in later life the kids thought nothing of threatening the parents with a knife to get what they wanted. I'm not saying anything like that will happen, but for godsakes man, you need to get Carol to see what she's doing to the child by not doing anything!
( Hampster Squared has stuff at www.tilla.co.uk, Fri 10 Oct 2008, 1:09, closed)

this is very true
There is of course still hope for Chloe. It's not too late for her to change, but if that's going to happen you have to take a stand with Carol. If she takes your advice, you live together and both try and change Chloe, then you get what you want and the brat would hopefully not be a brat much longer. If Carol doesn't listen to you, as you say you can't stand the child so you wouldn't be together anyway, and at least you tried. Seems you have nothing to lose if you can be courageous enough to make a stand - I say go for it!
(Stu Moo winner of five nobble piece prizes, Fri 10 Oct 2008, 1:30, closed)

2 choices
a) If you love Carol then suck it up and pray the kid comes good
b) kill the relationship
CFS
(catflap I went out with Nicholas Parsons, Fri 10 Oct 2008, 5:47, closed)

Or
c) kill the child
(Cock it says kapow!, Fri 10 Oct 2008, 14:34, closed)

Yes!
I'd pick C. Definately.
(Obsidian, Fri 10 Oct 2008, 14:43, closed)

Her attention needs to be focussed...
Next time you see her, tell her quietly 'Mummy and I are getting married'. That should at least give her some focus for her spleen-venting.
Deny everything to Carol, obviously.
Follow it up a bit further down the line with 'After the wedding, we're all going to live in Mozambique.'
Alternatively, try tackling the problem at source. 'Carol, your hellspawn daughter is out of control and heading for sectioning at some point in her future. Now I appreciate she's had a tough time of it, but for feck's sake sort her out or I'm off', sort of thing.
Failing that, you could simply buy a Taser off the interweb...
(Billy The Fish wants to gargle with Lucy Pinder's bath water, Fri 10 Oct 2008, 5:54, closed)

Might be too little too late
but... what worked with mine is not "hearing" or "seeing" them when they pitched a fit. Daughter never threw a full blown tantrum, but when son did, I looked around and said, "Where on earth is that weird noise coming from?" and left.

They learned I responded to a strong, non-whiny request and that when I said "no" I never changed my mind. I literally would not talk or acknowledge them if they were that unpleasant.
OTOH, I do allow them to make a case for their wishes and have given them huge treats and privileges after they have made a reasoned presentation of "Why I deserve to fill the back yard with water and make an ice skating pond" or whatever.

So-that may work, or it may be too late. I do agree with the person who said Carol will side with her daughter. As a mom, I would too, probably even if I knew I was in the wrong. If you can make peace with Chloe and learn to like her, great: smooth sailing. If you can't, I am very sad to say she will probably always be a source of fights and heartache between you and Carol, even after she grows up and leaves the house.

Is there a way to enlist the 15 year old sister in taming the teeny tiny shrew?
(TDub Nunc id vides, nunc ne vides on, Fri 10 Oct 2008, 7:08, closed)

Good on you
That is a recognised method recommended by Clinical Psychologists - known as 'Planned Ignoring' - based on the principle of rewarding good behaviour, and withholding rewards for bad behaviour, and the most powerful reward for a child is agreed to be ... attention.
(cherrynicola, Sat 11 Oct 2008, 19:34, closed)

Really?
I call it "Benign Neglect".


edit: Thanks.
(TDub Nunc id vides, nunc ne vides on, Sun 12 Oct 2008, 5:11, closed)

What to do?
I have a small amount of experience, I was an au-pair for 6 months. Two boys, 5 and 8. The younger was an angel, always happy to help with chores, willing to try new things, he even listened to reason when I had to ask him to do things I knew he didn't want to do. If I could have just worked with him I'd go back right now.
The older one was a total shit. Presumably as the first child he'd been doted on until his brother turned up. He expected everything to be done for him, always thought he knew best, had huge screaming rows with his mum, frequently trashed his bedroom, throwing things, making his brother cry if his brother ever won a game we played together etc... I had a really hard time not letting it out that I didn't like him. His parents constantly undermined me when I tried to get him to do anything by telling me to let him have his way. Only when they were out was he ok - after a month or two he realized I didn't take the same shit from him that his parents did. His parents often came home and were stunning that I'd put him to bed and got him to sleep - it took them hours.

I think when I left he was genuinely the most upset.

It'll be difficult, particularly at first, but if you do go for it with this woman you'll have to be the hated 'bad cop', but you may end up being closer to this kid in the long run.

I found the key was to set expectations before anything e.g. you can watch tv for until 8 (30mins or so) and then I'll read you a story before you go to bed. Before the TV goes on you have to be ready for bed, teeth brushed etc. If you don't get ready for bed quickly you're missing TV time.
There is a fixed time when the TV goes off and they know it and if they cause a fuss story time is reduced.
Explain everything clearly and calmly beforehand - it's all carrots and sticks.

It's got to be a regime that encourages self-discipline: if they mis-behave they're hurting themselves more than you. When you're disciplining them stay calm (getting angry is counter-productive - they know they've got to you and will try and keep pushing you) and explain exactly what you told them at the start and why you're taking the privileges away - you may need to give them some time alone being angry before they're able to listen to you.

Hope thats helpful - please don't think I'm being patronizing - don't know if you've got experience with kids yourself - when I took that job I had very little experience and 'common sense' seemed like a revelation to me!

Good luck.
(ComplexStuff Was confused by life on, Fri 10 Oct 2008, 8:51, closed)

Well...
If she throws a hissy fit in the supermarket again, just drop her in one of the chest freezers with lids, and sit on it for a couple of minutes.

If she complains when she comes out, back in she goes!
( Agnostic Antichrist Baltimora, Fri 10 Oct 2008, 9:10, closed)

Judging by your last sentence,
you already know how this is going to end up. Having been in a similar situation myself, I fear that you are right, but I hope for all your sakes that I am wrong.
( Ping_Pang_Piddley_Dee couldn't give a big shiny fuck., Sat 11 Oct 2008, 20:22, closed)

They make those shock collars
I know they're for dogs but they work great on kids too.
( The Light in Chains don't touch the Pope's boner, Sun 12 Oct 2008, 20:25, closed)