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# They should put these eye-mouth swops in the waiting rooms
of fertility clinics.
(I helped save b3ta! Herr Tezcat, Thu 4 Sep 2003, 11:44, archived)
# Ian Yeeks
:)
www.b3ta.com/board/5/1/3/4/9/6
(I helped save b3ta! Professor Fnord Regius Professor of B3ta Chronology, Thu 4 Sep 2003, 11:45, archived)
# Am I alone in thinking that it's a little ridiculous
that everyone is going to be able to get free fertility treatment on the NHS? I mean, it's not as if there's any shortage of children in the world. Wouldn't it make more sense for these couples to adpot orphans from poorer nations?

Discuss.
(I helped save b3ta! Baz Fuck off, Thu 4 Sep 2003, 11:46, archived)
# only if they give free
infertility treatment too for couples that don't want kids
(I helped save b3ta! Professor Fnord Regius Professor of B3ta Chronology, Thu 4 Sep 2003, 11:48, archived)
# Aren't vasectomies free?
(I helped save b3ta! Baz Fuck off, Thu 4 Sep 2003, 11:49, archived)
# no
but they did cut the price lately and now they're a snip.
(I helped save b3ta! Professor Fnord Regius Professor of B3ta Chronology, Thu 4 Sep 2003, 11:51, archived)
# *groan*
(I helped save b3ta! Dr. Kitteny Berk almost certainly drunk, Thu 4 Sep 2003, 11:52, archived)
# britain has a zero growth rate
we are running out of young people
(edit) woops, i don't mean zero growth. i mean low birth rate hence a population with an increasingly large proportion of the old and retired
(I helped save b3ta! Spoon, Thu 4 Sep 2003, 11:48, archived)
# Well why not import some?
There's plenty out there.
(I helped save b3ta! Baz Fuck off, Thu 4 Sep 2003, 11:49, archived)
# exactermally
we'll be paying people to move here in ten years time
(I helped save b3ta! Spoon, Thu 4 Sep 2003, 11:51, archived)
# We're doing that now!


/Daily Mail
(I helped save b3ta! supermoore: HUNG, Thu 4 Sep 2003, 11:52, archived)
# it's what makes me laugh about
the anti-immigration nobbers. on page one of the daily mail its all 'keep the nasty foreigners out' and on page two it will be 'why isn't the government doing anything about the lack of doctors/teachers/police'

how many doctors are sitting in detention centers at the moment?
(I helped save b3ta! Spoon, Thu 4 Sep 2003, 12:02, archived)
# Harold Shipman
for one
(Mattyboy, Thu 4 Sep 2003, 12:10, archived)
# You are a bad, bad man.
:)
(I helped save b3ta! supermoore: HUNG, Thu 4 Sep 2003, 12:12, archived)
# haha!
he was doing the country a favour really ;)
(I helped save b3ta! Spoon, Thu 4 Sep 2003, 12:13, archived)
# he's a hero
but where's his medal?




/Homer
(I helped save b3ta! atomboy, Thu 4 Sep 2003, 12:27, archived)
# Bwha ha ha ha
Bravo sir, bravo!
(I helped save b3ta! Ijon Tichy, Thu 4 Sep 2003, 12:14, archived)
# Hahaha
Evil lad
(I helped save b3ta! Whillow, Thu 4 Sep 2003, 12:26, archived)
# But that's just a response to the population boom after the wars.
Britain is densely populated, and may not be able to sustain it's own food and energy suplies as time goes on and "developing nations" start to wonder why they send us all the food they grow.
(I helped save b3ta! Herr Tezcat, Thu 4 Sep 2003, 11:51, archived)
# there is a large number of
houses standing empty here, but we're a bit crap on the infrastructure to support them
i wouldn't say we are densely populated, it's not as if we are crammed up to the edges of the sea or anything

farming is increasingly fucked, which you're right will be an increasing problem as we have to import more. the biggest problem i see is developing countries not wanting to export all their professionals here, which is fair enough
(I helped save b3ta! Spoon, Thu 4 Sep 2003, 11:56, archived)
# Not true:
www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=6
(I helped save b3ta! dirty barry, Thu 4 Sep 2003, 11:55, archived)
#
www.sustainable-development.gov.uk/sustainable/quality99/chap4/04k03.htm
(edit) i don't know if that website is any good, it is the first one i came across that shows how the proportion of people over 65 is increasing
(I helped save b3ta! Spoon, Thu 4 Sep 2003, 11:58, archived)
# It was the zero growth bit I was arguing with
There are more births than deaths in the UK
(I helped save b3ta! dirty barry, Thu 4 Sep 2003, 12:03, archived)
# you're right
what i was really meaning was that the birth rate is low, and that the proportion of older (hence retired) people is increasing significantly

i used the wrong term, which was confusing
(I helped save b3ta! Spoon, Thu 4 Sep 2003, 12:08, archived)
# It doesn't say in your link
how much of that 2.5m increase is due to imigration though. Quite alot over the 20 years '81-'01 I would think.
(I helped save b3ta! supermoore: HUNG, Thu 4 Sep 2003, 12:09, archived)
# not much really
there wasn't that much immigration in the twenty year period, 'cos there were realtively few humanitarian crises that people could escape to here from until near the end.
(I helped save b3ta! atomboy, Thu 4 Sep 2003, 12:30, archived)
# Plenty of economic migration though.
And there are an awful lot of Somalians, Cosovans, Columbians, Indian Muslims and others who might disagree with your point there.
(I helped save b3ta! supermoore: HUNG, Thu 4 Sep 2003, 12:33, archived)
# Yes it does:
"The growth in the population of the UK is mainly due to net natural change (more births than deaths). Natural change accounted for over 80 per cent of the total population change between 1981 and 2001. The rest of the population change is due to other changes. Although the main component of these other changes is net civilian migration, this is not the only component. "
(I helped save b3ta! dirty barry, Thu 4 Sep 2003, 13:14, archived)
# falafel
(I helped save b3ta! Danblez, Thu 4 Sep 2003, 11:49, archived)
# try
www.romanianorphansforsale.com
(I helped save b3ta! Monkboy, Thu 4 Sep 2003, 11:49, archived)
# I agree to some extent.
I would like to see adoption become alot more popular generally, and a good place to start would be to open the way for more same-sex couples to adopt.

There's an argument that reproduction is something of a basic human right though, and therefore witholding the treatment might constitute a breach of said rights. Plus, it could stave off depression and other psychological trauma for the couple involved.

Anyway, what do I know. Fuck it.
(I helped save b3ta! supermoore: HUNG, Thu 4 Sep 2003, 11:49, archived)
# Hmm.
www.un.org/Overview/rights.html

I guess it depends how you interpret Article 16.
(I helped save b3ta! Baz Fuck off, Thu 4 Sep 2003, 11:53, archived)
# Indeed.
I suppose a good lawyer would site interpret clase 3 as support for my above argument.

I'm more inclined to agree with your initial premise though. And I think my friend just below here is right too. It'll inevitably lead to a progressive increase of infertility.
(I helped save b3ta! supermoore: HUNG, Thu 4 Sep 2003, 11:58, archived)
# Doesn't say you have a right to have kids
just that your family should be protected.
(I helped save b3ta! butchbint, Thu 4 Sep 2003, 12:03, archived)
# Well
it says "the family" should be protected. Does that mean a specific family already in existence, or the idea of a family should be protected, ie the physical ability to create said family.
(I helped save b3ta! supermoore: HUNG, Thu 4 Sep 2003, 12:05, archived)
# *sniffs*
you a lawyer?
(I helped save b3ta! butchbint, Thu 4 Sep 2003, 12:07, archived)
# how does he smell?
(I helped save b3ta! Herr Tezcat, Thu 4 Sep 2003, 12:14, archived)
# I love lawyers
.
(Mattyboy, Thu 4 Sep 2003, 12:15, archived)
# Well, as much as I hate to say it, Fertility is one of the strongest evolutionary factors.
and the more children born to low-fertility couples, the more fertility treatment will be needed in years to come, until it is relied upon for reproduction.

It isn't Eugenics, it's a case of humanity being biologically prepared to survive in the event of, say, a power-cut.
(I helped save b3ta! Herr Tezcat, Thu 4 Sep 2003, 11:55, archived)
# technically,
that is eugenics, I believe.
Cancer is also partly heritable. Should we refuse cancer sufferers treatment too?
edit: this is getting too serious for b3ta, I'm going to lunch.
(I helped save b3ta! MissPrism, Thu 4 Sep 2003, 12:02, archived)
# I don't think he's stating that as a case for witholding treatment
just that it's a strong possibility, and if we set a precedent for it being publicly funded, it should be done with an awareness of the future costs involved.
(I helped save b3ta! supermoore: HUNG, Thu 4 Sep 2003, 12:04, archived)
# Yes.
The NHS is already under enough financial pressure without spending hundreds of millions of pounds and what is essentially a "luxury". I've no objection to people spending their own money on fertility treatment.
(I helped save b3ta! Baz Fuck off, Thu 4 Sep 2003, 12:07, archived)
# And for fuck's sake
some of these people are fucking ugly
(Mattyboy, Thu 4 Sep 2003, 12:14, archived)
# Perhaps we should means test.
If you can pass an attractiveness test, and answer 50 medium-difficulty general knowledge questions, then it's on the house. Otherwise, you're on the genetic scrapheap along with the other retarded thickos.
(I helped save b3ta! supermoore: HUNG, Thu 4 Sep 2003, 12:21, archived)
# Absolutely
looking at some of these people I'm sure it's not infertility it's just that they're both so ugly the thought of fucking each other fills them with a dread and fear only previouslt felt in the trenches.
(Mattyboy, Thu 4 Sep 2003, 12:23, archived)
# You're controversial
but I like your style. I would like to subscribe to your newsletter.
(I helped save b3ta! Baz Fuck off, Thu 4 Sep 2003, 12:25, archived)
# No, but people don't die of infertility.
(I helped save b3ta! Baz Fuck off, Thu 4 Sep 2003, 12:04, archived)
# Ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm




*thinks*
(I helped save b3ta! Herr Tezcat, Thu 4 Sep 2003, 12:04, archived)
# same sex couples can adopt
just only one of them adopts the kids, the other becomes a legal guardian.
(I helped save b3ta! butchbint, Thu 4 Sep 2003, 11:56, archived)
# I believe so
although I see an awful lot of literature bemoaning the reluctance of adoption boards to place children with same-sex couples. It's an attitude adjustment that's needed rather than a legal one I think. The same applies to mixed-race couples, or black couples adopting asian children, for example.
(I helped save b3ta! supermoore: HUNG, Thu 4 Sep 2003, 12:00, archived)
# true
I suppose my mates who adopted do live in Brighton... Were all gay in Brighton
(I helped save b3ta! butchbint, Thu 4 Sep 2003, 12:06, archived)
# we certainly are!
Whoops!
(I helped save b3ta! isthisyou?, Thu 4 Sep 2003, 12:14, archived)
# make them adopt a kitten instead
far nicer than children
(I helped save b3ta! Red wine and cheese., Thu 4 Sep 2003, 11:50, archived)
# exactly
Free Kittens
(I helped save b3ta! VampireMonkeyOnSpeed a super sexy sexual sex terrorist sex, Thu 4 Sep 2003, 11:53, archived)
# It is a bit daft, yes
Until you can't have kids


By the same logic, it's also daft to treat people for cancer or AIDS, or heart disease when millions of people are dying of hunger.
(I helped save b3ta! isthisyou?, Thu 4 Sep 2003, 11:51, archived)
# In theory I agree with your last point.
Which is ironic, as I've just accepted a moderately well-paid job at a Cancer Research Institute. I'm part of the problem!
(I helped save b3ta! Baz Fuck off, Thu 4 Sep 2003, 12:00, archived)
# what are you doing for them?
just out of interest
(I helped save b3ta! Red wine and cheese., Thu 4 Sep 2003, 12:03, archived)
# Erm, stuff to do with protein-folding.
Only tenuously linked with actual cancer research, as the case with quite a lot of "medical" research.
(I helped save b3ta! Baz Fuck off, Thu 4 Sep 2003, 12:05, archived)
# Not quite the same logic
People dying of cancer, heart disease or hunger all have the same right to life whereas it seems reasonable to suppose the right to personally procreate is less important than to ensure the welfare of existing children.
(I helped save b3ta! dirty barry, Thu 4 Sep 2003, 12:02, archived)
# another point
the more we give fertility treatment out,
the more (usually) infertile couples shall procreate,
the more infertile children we have

until the human race, or at least the rich part, becomes completely and irreversibly infertile and we all die

then kittens rule the earth, in a tyranical reign of terror, mwahahahahaaaa!
(I helped save b3ta! Red wine and cheese., Thu 4 Sep 2003, 11:55, archived)
# I've just Green Lighted
this, go ahead and make it :)
(I helped save b3ta! Professor Fnord Regius Professor of B3ta Chronology, Thu 4 Sep 2003, 11:58, archived)
# i might just do that
But i could never make it as well as you, Sir
(I helped save b3ta! Red wine and cheese., Thu 4 Sep 2003, 12:01, archived)
# but then, by the same argument,
we shouldn't give anyone any medical treatment at all.
(I helped save b3ta! MissPrism, Thu 4 Sep 2003, 11:58, archived)
# there's a balance to everything
we seem to be tipping the scales a little too far

read some Nieche :) i haven't, but i've been told it's what it's about
(I helped save b3ta! Red wine and cheese., Thu 4 Sep 2003, 12:02, archived)
# ahem
nietzche
(I helped save b3ta! atomboy, Thu 4 Sep 2003, 12:34, archived)
# Makes me sick
Less babies!
(I helped save b3ta! butchbint, Thu 4 Sep 2003, 11:59, archived)
# BUT I WANT LOTS OF LITTLE MATTYBOYS RUNNING AROUND
IMPREGNATING THE POPULACE AND SPREADING MY DEPRAVED LOGIC ACROSS THE GLOBE
(Mattyboy, Thu 4 Sep 2003, 12:08, archived)
# Shut it.
Everyone knows your "condition" makes you infertile. Thank god.
(I helped save b3ta! Baz Fuck off, Thu 4 Sep 2003, 12:09, archived)