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I agree with you.
Especially as she did not name the bear. It was named by a child called Muhhamed after himself.
(I helped save b3ta! Damion International - now taking orders., Wed 28 Nov 2007, 15:44, archived)
Not quite - most of the kids in her class voted for Muhammad as the name of the teddy bear.

(I helped save b3ta! The Mock TurtIe ™ --- Thinks you are a cunt, on, Wed 28 Nov 2007, 15:45, archived)
They should have avoided this confusion and just called it
The Prophet.
(moomin-papa ; folkin class., Wed 28 Nov 2007, 15:47, archived)
1) Employ dippy foreign woman
2) Buy teddy bear
3) Hold rigged class vote

5) Prophet.
(I helped save b3ta! Grrrmachine the indifference engine, Wed 28 Nov 2007, 15:52, archived)
pfft

(I helped save b3ta! Damion International - now taking orders., Wed 28 Nov 2007, 15:52, archived)
hahahahaha




*issues fatwa*
(I helped save b3ta! robh, Wed 28 Nov 2007, 15:53, archived)
hahahaha

(I helped save b3ta! RedStar returneth, Wed 28 Nov 2007, 15:53, archived)
*burns embassy*

(I helped save b3ta! Ralph farts in your general direction, Wed 28 Nov 2007, 15:54, archived)
I AM OUTSIDE UR AIRPORTZ BURNIN TO DEF

(I helped save b3ta! RedStar returneth, Wed 28 Nov 2007, 15:55, archived)
Hahaha

(I helped save b3ta! G/PP 💩💩💩💩💩&#128, Wed 28 Nov 2007, 15:57, archived)
:(

(I helped save b3ta! Sir Sand GOBLIN ^popular page dis, Wed 28 Nov 2007, 16:00, archived)
It especially upsets me as the punishment could end up killing a woman her age very easily.

(I helped save b3ta! Damion International - now taking orders., Wed 28 Nov 2007, 15:46, archived)
Pays your money, takes your choice.
She should have learned more about the culture before
moving out there.
(I helped save b3ta! Spider Fucking Riviera got stiches for a knife wound for the first time, Wed 28 Nov 2007, 15:55, archived)
yes , she was careless
but does the punishment fit the crime?

does this not show a severe lack of respect for human rights?
(I helped save b3ta! Damion International - now taking orders., Wed 28 Nov 2007, 15:58, archived)
Obviously it doesn't. And I'm not condoning it.
But she KNEW they didn't play by her rules, so she should have
boned up on culture traditons and the law, like anybody else would.
(I helped save b3ta! Spider Fucking Riviera got stiches for a knife wound for the first time, Wed 28 Nov 2007, 16:02, archived)
Good grief.

(I helped save b3ta! Dr. Shambolic je suis charlie, Wed 28 Nov 2007, 16:03, archived)
"Having to watch your mouth for fear of brutal punishment" is hardly a defensible piece of 'culture'.
But if you follow this particularly shitty line of reasoning, it's where the "innocent mistake" defense becomes relevant. I don't think she was in any doubt that Islamic theocrats are uppity.
(I helped save b3ta! Newington, Wed 28 Nov 2007, 16:09, archived)
Either way , guilty or innocent
The idea that she could be physicly abused for this is an out rage.

40 lashes , 40 acts of violent and deliberate physical abuse.
(I helped save b3ta! Damion International - now taking orders., Wed 28 Nov 2007, 16:11, archived)
they're Darkies, Damion dear.
The Dark Continent had nothing until us White Chappies turned up.
(I helped save b3ta! moohalaa, Wed 28 Nov 2007, 16:13, archived)
because women are a lower class of human compared to men
OBVIOUSLY DUR!
(I helped save b3ta! Clairebare Back once again with the Ill behaviour, Wed 28 Nov 2007, 16:11, archived)
Another attitude that makes me consider the people who live that lifestyle as primative and insulting to humanity.

(I helped save b3ta! Damion International - now taking orders., Wed 28 Nov 2007, 16:12, archived)
never short of a glass cloth though


oh god, did i?

yes, yes i did
(I helped save b3ta! Clairebare Back once again with the Ill behaviour, Wed 28 Nov 2007, 16:15, archived)
What utter drivel.

(I helped save b3ta! Dr. Shambolic je suis charlie, Wed 28 Nov 2007, 16:02, archived)
This

(I helped save b3ta! Damion International - now taking orders., Wed 28 Nov 2007, 16:03, archived)
How so?
If someone is too ignorant to bother learning a little
local culture before emigrating to work in another
country for a while, and falls afoul of an obscure draconian law,
it's their own fault and I have no sympathy with their predicament,
no matter how severe/unfair the punishment is.
(I helped save b3ta! Spider Fucking Riviera got stiches for a knife wound for the first time, Wed 28 Nov 2007, 16:05, archived)
Please
sort out your
line breaks.
I keep thinking
you're writing
verse.
(I helped save b3ta! Cap'n Tallbeard, Wed 28 Nov 2007, 16:06, archived)
Pf
f
t
(I helped save b3ta! broadsword now that's fresh, Wed 28 Nov 2007, 16:07, archived)
I want this on a David Shrigley-style postcard

(I helped save b3ta! Cap'n Tallbeard, Wed 28 Nov 2007, 16:07, archived)
I'd say I'm a poet but didn't know it,
I'd make a rhyme, everytime,
But really, I'm just shit.
(I helped save b3ta! Spider Fucking Riviera got stiches for a knife wound for the first time, Wed 28 Nov 2007, 16:10, archived)
things are getting a little tense.

(I helped save b3ta! Sir Sand GOBLIN ^popular page dis, Wed 28 Nov 2007, 16:11, archived)
I cannot even entertain this notion.
A woman could die because of this , she has gone to the country to help children learn , a country that has a poor educational record to start with.

I can understand if she had commited a crime that has hurt or deprived someone that punishment would be expected , but all she did was allow her class to pick a name , a name that about a third of the men in the country have.
(I helped save b3ta! Damion International - now taking orders., Wed 28 Nov 2007, 16:09, archived)
I have a lot of sympathy for her
but the law's the law.
if you steal stuff in Saudi, expect to lose an extremity or two.
if you are brazillian and an electrician in Britain, expect to be shot repeatedly in the head.
if you smuggle drugs in the wrong place, expect 20 years in jail.
upset the religious authorities in a strongly Muslim country where they have corporal punishment, expect a few days in chokey as a good alternative.
I can understand it's an innocent mistake, and as such people get upset about that on her behalf.
I cannot understand the people calling her to be let off "as it's a Christian school"... it's still inside Sudan, and hence runs under their laws, unless being a Christian school nullifies the law of the land?
(I helped save b3ta! evilstevie misses the Orange Place of late, Wed 28 Nov 2007, 16:18, archived)
This is striking several bells on the cunt-o-metre

(I helped save b3ta! Damion International - now taking orders., Wed 28 Nov 2007, 16:21, archived)
I've actually been deafened the alarms.

(I helped save b3ta! The Baroness The Harlot Pimpernel, Wed 28 Nov 2007, 16:26, archived)
cheers.
why am I being a cunt?

she's in a country, voluntarily, and has violated one of their laws. that law was not put into place after she went, it was in place a long time before.
if I were making the decision about what to do about her, it'd involve taking her to one side and telling her not to upset the religious nutters again, pretty please. in those words.
should she prove to be a staunch christian, she would most likely take some offence at that, though that offence would have no legal basis in that country.
I'm not making the decision. someone who is probably muslim is making that decision (vast sweeping generalisations aside, if the law's religious, the person adjudicating will most likely be of that religion).
(I helped save b3ta! evilstevie misses the Orange Place of late, Wed 28 Nov 2007, 17:01, archived)
LAST WORD LAST WORD LAST WORD
I was objecting mostly to the "If you are brazillian and an electrician in Britain..." part.

Which is ludicrous and makes me shake with anger in my belly.
(I helped save b3ta! The Baroness The Harlot Pimpernel, Wed 28 Nov 2007, 18:03, archived)
I'll agree it's ludicrous
but I'm also pointing out that sometimes very very stupid things are done and still considered "legal" (how many of the cops who shot menezes have been tried for manslaughter or murder?). this, despite the fact that an (apparently - I have no in-depth knowledge on any crimes other than his lack of being a terrierist) innocent man lost his life through blatant idiocy through an action intended to uphold the law.
(I helped save b3ta! evilstevie misses the Orange Place of late, Wed 28 Nov 2007, 18:33, archived)
so...
do something wrong, in the wrong place, where there are laws against doing that thing, and it's okay if you're british?

laws are applicable to the land they are in. some countries have reciprocal arrangements to extend another country's laws beyond their borders.
some countries apply some of their laws to all of their citizens even while in another country (eg the UK paedophilia laws).

if someone comes to britain from germany and drives 150mph down the motorway, which is legal in germany, would they not expect to be punished for breaking the law in the uk?
would the motoring lobbies in germany be outraged if he was fined, possibly banned from driving in the uk for a period, possibly imprisoned if he was driving in a manner deemed to be reckless by the police, as he was driving a german-made car in a manner legal in his own country, despite being in britain?

the law's the law in the country to which it applies.
right or wrong, it's what's used to protect, punish and penalise the population.
if you don't like living under that law, go somewhere else.

I agree that laws and religion *shouldn't* have anything to do with each other, but this is reality. a few hundred years ago in this country it was effectively illegal to celebrate a catholic mass, occasionally punishable by corporal or capital punishment.
we've moved on from that and now have a bigger gap between most of our laws and religion.
not all countries have done the same, or see a need to.
(I helped save b3ta! evilstevie misses the Orange Place of late, Wed 28 Nov 2007, 16:37, archived)
i think it's the actual law that people are disagreeing with,
rather than the right to have your own laws in your own countries.
(I helped save b3ta! Sir Sand GOBLIN ^popular page dis, Wed 28 Nov 2007, 16:43, archived)
or, more accurately, the punishment.

(I helped save b3ta! Sir Sand GOBLIN ^popular page dis, Wed 28 Nov 2007, 16:44, archived)
I agree it's a daft law.
most things rooted in religion are, to a greater or lesser degree.
I also agree that flogging is a very nasty way to treat people, and I'd rather not visit a country where that was an option which could be used on me should I do something wrong, by accident or otherwise.
at points in the past we (the UK, or component parts as applicable) have had religious-based laws that carried physical punishment, both corporal and capital.
some (see the witch-trials of a few centuries back) were horrific, both in the ways the law was applied, and the people who were punished under it.
this is the situation in Sudan.
it was the situation before she went there and will most likely be the situation when she returns home.
people saying "oh no, that's awful" won't change a damned thing in that country.
people not going there, not spending money on things sourced there, campaigning on human rights there, etc *might* have a bigger effect.

edit: plus to the german motorist, the 70mph law on the motorway may appear to be complete bollocks as that limit is based on the abilities of a very very old and crap motorcar. logically, then, he'd feel entirely justified going 150mph to get where he was going a bit faster. many in this country would actually agree with him on that point, but he'd still be punished for doing that speed.
(I helped save b3ta! evilstevie misses the Orange Place of late, Wed 28 Nov 2007, 16:51, archived)
so nobody should mention that it is awful?
what?
(I helped save b3ta! Sir Sand GOBLIN ^popular page dis, Wed 28 Nov 2007, 16:56, archived)
if you think it's wrong
DO something.
email your MP.
picket the Sudanese embassy.

but don't just say "oh that's awful, they shouldn't uphold their own legal system in their own country like that"
(I helped save b3ta! evilstevie misses the Orange Place of late, Wed 28 Nov 2007, 17:03, archived)
so your point is that people shouldn't do one thing when they could be doing something else?
and you don't even know that they are not doing something else? what? christ.
(I helped save b3ta! Sir Sand GOBLIN ^popular page dis, Wed 28 Nov 2007, 17:17, archived)
okay.
quick guess time:
how many people who participated in this thread have done anything other than participate in this thread about it?

one? two?

how many people thought it was a Bad Thing for someone to risk physical punishment for naming a teddy bear?

lots.

go on, please prove me wrong, people. if you've been moved to actually act by this whole mess, please let me know.
(I helped save b3ta! evilstevie misses the Orange Place of late, Wed 28 Nov 2007, 17:23, archived)
you're an idiot.

(I helped save b3ta! Sir Sand GOBLIN ^popular page dis, Wed 28 Nov 2007, 17:25, archived)
many would agree
with you on that fact.
(I helped save b3ta! evilstevie misses the Orange Place of late, Wed 28 Nov 2007, 18:38, archived)
you should be in politics.
they love people who use loads of words to make no decent point.
(I helped save b3ta! Sir Sand GOBLIN ^popular page dis, Wed 28 Nov 2007, 16:58, archived)
Huzzah!
*enters politics*
...messes about a bit...
*leaves politics in disgust*

edit: sorry about all the words. I tend to type too quickly and never bother editing down for length.
(I helped save b3ta! evilstevie misses the Orange Place of late, Wed 28 Nov 2007, 17:14, archived)
^All this and a bag of chips!
- sympathy
(I helped save b3ta! Spider Fucking Riviera got stiches for a knife wound for the first time, Wed 28 Nov 2007, 16:25, archived)
No sympathy?
You're a fucking tosser, then.
(I helped save b3ta! Newington, Wed 28 Nov 2007, 16:09, archived)
Cold, cruel and callous, maybe.
But I'm no tosser.

Fucking, or otherwise.
(I helped save b3ta! Spider Fucking Riviera got stiches for a knife wound for the first time, Wed 28 Nov 2007, 16:13, archived)
I have sympathy for her plight.
she was doing something she hoped would better the lot of children in that country (the teaching, not the whole teddy thing, obviously).
she was a bit naive with the whole teddy thing.
she may be punished for that, in accordance with the laws in Sudan.
(I helped save b3ta! evilstevie misses the Orange Place of late, Wed 28 Nov 2007, 16:42, archived)
Two mini tiny almost unimportant points.
What makes you think she was at all ignorant of the local culture?
How the fuck does anything she did or anything she may be unaware of make her deserve a flogging? Anything. Just one little thing that might possibly deserve that. Perhaps she pinched a lollipop in 1968?
(I helped save b3ta! Dr. Shambolic je suis charlie, Wed 28 Nov 2007, 16:10, archived)
Oh dear lord, please tell me you're not bieng serious.

(I helped save b3ta! G/PP 💩💩💩💩💩&#128, Wed 28 Nov 2007, 16:12, archived)
Being careless or insulting a religion
does not deserve a flogging.
(Psycho Eyes, Wed 28 Nov 2007, 16:13, archived)
"flogging" is a polite euphanism
this woman could be beaten in a fashoin that opens wounds 40 times.Every new wound crossing the last , and it wont stop until its done , even if the "prisoner" is unconcious.

Healthy men die from this treatment.
(I helped save b3ta! Damion International - now taking orders., Wed 28 Nov 2007, 16:16, archived)
I know that.
And never said it did.

But that is their laws and there is not one thing anyone here can do at this minute to change them.
(I helped save b3ta! Spider Fucking Riviera got stiches for a knife wound for the first time, Wed 28 Nov 2007, 16:17, archived)
Oh well then.
We'd better all turn off our sympathy glands.

Are you being a genuine prick? Or is this just internet prickery?
(I helped save b3ta! Dr. Shambolic je suis charlie, Wed 28 Nov 2007, 16:20, archived)
No.
I've just seen so much stupid shit in the news,
that I'll choose what to feel sympathy for rather than being told.
(I helped save b3ta! Spider Fucking Riviera got stiches for a knife wound for the first time, Wed 28 Nov 2007, 16:30, archived)
a woman her age?
she's not 90 you know.
(I helped save b3ta! Blue Star was working part time at the 5 and Dime, Wed 28 Nov 2007, 16:11, archived)
hello

(I helped save b3ta! RR I love you ... in a way, Wed 28 Nov 2007, 15:46, archived)
That's not quite my point. It's pretty much the exact opposite, in fact.
I'm saying if she'd named the bear Mohammed Smells of Elderberries and All Theists are Demonstrably Insane, it would still be unacceptable to lock her up or lash her for it. The fact that she didn't mean to offend anyone shouldn't be important in the slightest.

The fact that we only make a fuss when it happens to a Brit is sad too.
(I helped save b3ta! Newington, Wed 28 Nov 2007, 15:46, archived)
I think the best sollution would be to take their goverment out of power and put in place our own one, using western values.
That has worked so well in the past, we might aswell do it again.
(I helped save b3ta! G/PP 💩💩💩💩💩&#128, Wed 28 Nov 2007, 15:48, archived)
There's a huuuuge big spectrum between invading a sovereign nation because it has antiquated and obnoxious laws
and being too fucking cowardly to condemn it for having antiquated and obnoxious laws.
(I helped save b3ta! Dr. Shambolic je suis charlie, Wed 28 Nov 2007, 15:49, archived)
Are you saying it's a bad thing to want the whole world to respect human rights?
Or equating that with imperialism?
(I helped save b3ta! Newington, Wed 28 Nov 2007, 15:49, archived)
this
without the sarcasm
(negative armadillo There never was much hope..just a fool's hope., Wed 28 Nov 2007, 15:50, archived)
Especially as it would mean we'd spend shitloads of the taxpayers' money on it
and would therefore cut back our spending on povvos' education and healthcare.
(I helped save b3ta! The Mock TurtIe ™ --- Thinks you are a cunt, on, Wed 28 Nov 2007, 15:50, archived)
Good.
Our povvos are already far better off than most of the rest of the world and favouring them exclusively would be enormously selfish.

Edit: I'd rather cut back on our outsourced civil middle-managers' lunch money and our thugs' Trident submarines, of course.
(I helped save b3ta! Newington, Wed 28 Nov 2007, 15:54, archived)
How dare this country look after it's own !

(I helped save b3ta! G/PP 💩💩💩💩💩&#128, Wed 28 Nov 2007, 16:03, archived)
*ponders use of the word "thug"*

(I helped save b3ta! The Baroness The Harlot Pimpernel, Wed 28 Nov 2007, 16:07, archived)
you know, army people.

(I helped save b3ta! Sir Sand GOBLIN ^popular page dis, Wed 28 Nov 2007, 16:16, archived)
Yes
I was disappointed.

I know many men and women who either are in the forces or have been in the forces.

I can't say I've ever thought of any of them as thugs.
(I helped save b3ta! The Baroness The Harlot Pimpernel, Wed 28 Nov 2007, 16:22, archived)
Funny how they signed up to a career of killing people then,
but I doubt I'm going to bring you round on this one.
(I helped save b3ta! Newington, Wed 28 Nov 2007, 16:24, archived)
Oh christ......
You seriously belive that, don't you?
(I helped save b3ta! G/PP 💩💩💩💩💩&#128, Wed 28 Nov 2007, 16:27, archived)
That if you don't have thuggish mentality, it's funny you should want to join the army?
Yes.
Note that I didn't say everyone in the army is a thug, just that I think it's funny anyone else should join.
(I helped save b3ta! Newington, Wed 28 Nov 2007, 16:30, archived)
What about things like Medics?
I think it's actualy a very small part of the army that actualy kills people.
(I helped save b3ta! G/PP 💩💩💩💩💩&#128, Wed 28 Nov 2007, 16:33, archived)
Oh god 90nz, I actually have to agree with you on something
The world is ending.
(I helped save b3ta! The Baroness The Harlot Pimpernel, Wed 28 Nov 2007, 16:39, archived)
My good female friend who is in the army has never shot at anyone
She's in admin. How is that thuggish?

You mean "infantry".

And when was the last time anyone killed anyone from a trident sub?

I'm glad we had this conversation, I've realised that you're a very blinkered man.
(I helped save b3ta! The Baroness The Harlot Pimpernel, Wed 28 Nov 2007, 16:38, archived)
Please take a few hours to read my post before replying to it.
I have no doubt that plenty of people in the army, perhaps most, are perfectly nice people. I think it's funny that perfectly nice people join armies.

What I mean by 'it's funny' is "I don't understand it". I recognise this is something I don't understand, and I'd like to understand it. That's not blinkered.
(I helped save b3ta! Newington, Wed 28 Nov 2007, 16:41, archived)
You say that you simply don't understand it, but you'd like to
And yet you referred to them, without provocation or even prior discussion. as "thugs".

My partner is in the RAF, he did not join up "to kill people", he has never killed anyone, he is part of the logistics and supply chain. He joined up because it was a very interesting career path, and the RAF paid for a lot of his qualifications, so that when he leaves the RAF in May, he can further his career in logistics.

There is simply nothing thuggish about his motivations.

Very, very few people join the armed forces "to kill people".

Those people were thugs before they joined, and will be thugs long after.
(I helped save b3ta! The Baroness The Harlot Pimpernel, Wed 28 Nov 2007, 16:47, archived)
I'm sorry I called your boyfriend a thug.
I actually chose the word for its callousness, as I thought it flowed quite nicely from "povvos", another thoughtlessly and simplistically loaded word.

If your boyfriend is a nice peaceful chap, I still think it's funny that he's taken a career job sorry with an organisation that kills innocent people every day.
(I helped save b3ta! Newington, Wed 28 Nov 2007, 16:51, archived)
...and many of those
part of their own organisation.
(I helped save b3ta! evilstevie misses the Orange Place of late, Wed 28 Nov 2007, 16:53, archived)
Er, yes?

(I helped save b3ta! Newington, Wed 28 Nov 2007, 16:54, archived)
I am grateful for the apology, although I imagine you offer it in a slightly patronising tone.
I can understand a joke and a word used for effect, and I realise I have overreacted, but I hear such comments made without humour so often I've become a bit overprotective.

EDIT: Aaaah, I knew it was too good to be true.

So, because of your political leanings, you look down upon anyone who takes any sort of job with the MOD. Good good.
(I helped save b3ta! The Baroness The Harlot Pimpernel, Wed 28 Nov 2007, 16:56, archived)
i heard they also punch baby kittens too
:(
(I helped save b3ta! Sir Sand GOBLIN ^popular page dis, Wed 28 Nov 2007, 16:28, archived)
it isn't the taxpayers' money.
the taxpayers' money is what's LEFT. AFTER taxes.
(I helped save b3ta! sleepybinky, Wed 28 Nov 2007, 15:58, archived)
Ooh, I like this.

(I helped save b3ta! Newington, Wed 28 Nov 2007, 16:00, archived)
to be honest, i was expecting more of a stompy rant from other people.
but nevermind.
(I helped save b3ta! sleepybinky, Wed 28 Nov 2007, 16:02, archived)
it would be acceptable in as far as it is the law of the land...
but morally, yes, i agree with you
(likeajackhammer, Wed 28 Nov 2007, 15:48, archived)
This.
I maintain that you should always obey the law of the land you are in. But that is not what is happening there.

The children from the class admit that one of the children thought of the name and then they decided what to call it , she didnt name the bear.
(I helped save b3ta! Damion International - now taking orders., Wed 28 Nov 2007, 15:50, archived)
Does anyone know why school children were in Sudan in the first place?

(PsychoChomp, Wed 28 Nov 2007, 15:51, archived)
ermmm they live there
she tought at their school
(I helped save b3ta! Damion International - now taking orders., Wed 28 Nov 2007, 15:53, archived)
Yeah. How dare they educate children.
(eh?)
(I helped save b3ta! Dr. Shambolic je suis charlie, Wed 28 Nov 2007, 15:54, archived)
I thought it was a school trip
silly me.
(PsychoChomp, Wed 28 Nov 2007, 15:54, archived)
What?

(I helped save b3ta! LimeyTreat Bitch. Lover. Child. Mother. Sinner. Saint., Wed 28 Nov 2007, 15:54, archived)

www.b3ta.com/talk/4127677
(PsychoChomp, Wed 28 Nov 2007, 15:58, archived)
Hey Chompy...
Are you a fan of The Wire?
(I helped save b3ta! RR I love you ... in a way, Wed 28 Nov 2007, 15:55, archived)
YES
It's great.
(PsychoChomp, Wed 28 Nov 2007, 15:57, archived)
GOOD LAD. I'm halfway through season 3 at the mo.
I think I'll wait for season 4 to come down in price before I get that.


I take an active role in coercing people into watching it, mainly because IT'S THE GREATEST TV DRAMA SHOW EVER MADE.
(I helped save b3ta! RR I love you ... in a way, Wed 28 Nov 2007, 16:00, archived)
I've finished series 3
I'm just about to watch series 4.
(PsychoChomp, Wed 28 Nov 2007, 16:03, archived)
You should wait until I get it...
and we can watch it synchronised...


Holding internet hands.
(I helped save b3ta! RR I love you ... in a way, Wed 28 Nov 2007, 16:04, archived)
Nah, I think not that'll be super super gay.

(PsychoChomp, Wed 28 Nov 2007, 16:11, archived)
Yeah. you might be right.

(I helped save b3ta! RR I love you ... in a way, Wed 28 Nov 2007, 16:19, archived)
yeah...
its interesting that Newy mentions "... The fact that we only make a fuss when it happens to a Brit is sad too ..."

I wouldn't be surprised if this is some form of example that is to be set
(likeajackhammer, Wed 28 Nov 2007, 15:51, archived)
I am just worried that this woman could die because the class she was in charge of gave the name to the bear affectionatly.
Muhhamed is the most common name in the world , there is something distictivly arrogant about laying claim that all things called muhhamed are sacrilage.
(I helped save b3ta! Damion International - now taking orders., Wed 28 Nov 2007, 15:55, archived)
Religion arrogant?
No! Unpossible!
(I helped save b3ta! Dr. Shambolic je suis charlie, Wed 28 Nov 2007, 15:56, archived)
good point.
Its a shame people STILL die for this same shit excuse.

Most religions are guilty of it in epic proportions , inclucing the religion mine is rooted in. It makes me very sad.
(I helped save b3ta! Damion International - now taking orders., Wed 28 Nov 2007, 16:00, archived)
Perfectly easy solution.
Stop pandering to them. Proclaim yourself an atheist. Let them die the slow and whining death that they all deserve.
(I helped save b3ta! Dr. Shambolic je suis charlie, Wed 28 Nov 2007, 16:03, archived)
I still have faith , I just feel like there is more there

(I helped save b3ta! Damion International - now taking orders., Wed 28 Nov 2007, 16:04, archived)
But he believes in God.
You can't lump everyone who has a faith into the same catergory like that.
(Psycho Eyes, Wed 28 Nov 2007, 16:05, archived)
Of course you fucking can
Delusional, gullible sheep
(I helped save b3ta! Cap'n Tallbeard, Wed 28 Nov 2007, 16:06, archived)
This is pretty much the viewpoint of a religious fanatic, but pointed in the opposite direction.

(I helped save b3ta! The Mock TurtIe ™ --- Thinks you are a cunt, on, Wed 28 Nov 2007, 16:08, archived)
Yep
with, y'know, scientific evidence and that
(I helped save b3ta! Cap'n Tallbeard, Wed 28 Nov 2007, 16:10, archived)
Ok, I'm not religious
but I know that it can bring comfort and happiness to some people. What the fuck is wrong with that?
The only religious people I get angry at are those who use it as a weapon, as in this case, or those who try to force it on other people.
(Psycho Eyes, Wed 28 Nov 2007, 16:08, archived)
Bear in mind here that I'm a bit of a twat about religion
What's wrong with religion bringing comfort and happiness to some people is the massive number of evils committed in its name which far outweigh these small comforts. Add in that this comfort and happiness would come just as easily from a close, supportive social circle without the tie of religion, and I really don't see any reason for its continued existence.
(I helped save b3ta! Cap'n Tallbeard, Wed 28 Nov 2007, 16:15, archived)
It's to stop the little people stepping out of line.

(I helped save b3ta! The Mock TurtIe ™ --- Thinks you are a cunt, on, Wed 28 Nov 2007, 16:17, archived)
It's terrible that people
use religion as an excuse for horrific acts of violence and such. But it's those people that I'd blame, not the religion itself.
(Psycho Eyes, Wed 28 Nov 2007, 16:23, archived)
Why?
If the religion (as they believed it) were true, they'd be doing exactly the right thing.
(I helped save b3ta! Newington, Wed 28 Nov 2007, 16:43, archived)
I don't find a belief that something doesn't exist
is any different to a belief that something does exist.

If you catch my drift.
(I helped save b3ta! Sygiinu, Wed 28 Nov 2007, 16:10, archived)
Weight of evidence is on the side of the atheist, though

(I helped save b3ta! Cap'n Tallbeard, Wed 28 Nov 2007, 16:10, archived)
I don't see that there is any way to replicate experiments about it in a controled environment,
so there's nothing other than conjecture and personal experience on both sides.
(I helped save b3ta! Sygiinu, Wed 28 Nov 2007, 16:14, archived)
Piffle.
There is a vast weight of experiment to back up the bulk of our current scientific understanding of the universe. Millions and millions of hours of work by the greatest minds in the world. And almost every shred of it points to religions being full of shite.
(I helped save b3ta! Dr. Shambolic je suis charlie, Wed 28 Nov 2007, 16:16, archived)
You're better at this than I am
I'll leave you to it
(I helped save b3ta! Cap'n Tallbeard, Wed 28 Nov 2007, 16:20, archived)
Ah yes, I don't disagree that science explains the universe or whatever domain you want to extend it to (e.g. the Bulk) but it doesn't specifically rule out things existing outside of it.
It simply makes no predictions about those things.
(I helped save b3ta! Sygiinu, Wed 28 Nov 2007, 16:22, archived)
To quote Lee Smolin:
"It makes no sense to talk about things 'outside the Universe'. The Universe is defined as being all that there is."
Although I expect that's what you mean by 'the Bulk'. How can something outside our lightcone affect us?
(I helped save b3ta! Cap'n Tallbeard, Wed 28 Nov 2007, 16:25, archived)
The bulk is a prediction of some Brane theories.
Those theories though like all scientific things only operate in their specified domain, and make no prediction of what happens outside of that domain.
(I helped save b3ta! Sygiinu, Wed 28 Nov 2007, 16:28, archived)
Tired sophistry.
You're just pushing out the boundaries until there's a realm where the fantasy might exist. The religions are quite clear (if generally full of internal contradiction) about how the universe works and what role the magic beings play in it. They're all quite clear and all quite wrong. All of that stuff can be easily disproved.

Inventing something else that hasn't been disproved yet is just playing a game. It's the equivalent of saying "yeah? well ... it's my ball so I say that wasn't a goal because I've just invented this new rule ..."

Well I'm not seven years old and I can afford to buy my own ball so I'm not playing.
(I helped save b3ta! Dr. Shambolic je suis charlie, Wed 28 Nov 2007, 16:26, archived)
Again, you're arguing a subtly different point there, and now trying to justify it with false analogies.
I'm simply saying that all things have a domain in which they operate.
(I helped save b3ta! Sygiinu, Wed 28 Nov 2007, 16:31, archived)
I'm arguing precisely what I was arguing at the beginning.
There's nothing subtle about it: the supernatural claims of religions are all demonstrably nonsense. End of argument.

If you would like to change the argument to "can we invent a domain in which fluffy woolly definitions of fantasy beings might exist" then you are perfectly welcome.

I won't be joining in though. Because it is meaningless and immensely dull and the last resort of a dying philosophy.
(I helped save b3ta! Dr. Shambolic je suis charlie, Wed 28 Nov 2007, 16:43, archived)
If you said that they aren't provable, then I might have agreed with you (unless I was just arguing for the sake of it)
but that something that makes predictions within a finite domain, can make predictions outside of it's specified domain (which is the case, unless you add the rider that our hypothetical 'believer' believe that God only operates within the realms of known science), to demonstrate that something is nonsense or not, is not self consistent.

You simply need to change your "demonstrably nonsense" to "can't be proven" so something similar, and you'd be logically consistent.
(I helped save b3ta! Sygiinu, Wed 28 Nov 2007, 16:53, archived)
You're just going around in circles.
My argument is simple: God does not exist and can be proven not to exist. And I've said several times that I'm not interested in a tedious semantic dick-waving competition. It's dull and utterly irrelevant.
(I helped save b3ta! Dr. Shambolic je suis charlie, Wed 28 Nov 2007, 17:03, archived)
So you want to discuss philosophy but you're not interested in logic?
Because that's what you're saying.
(I helped save b3ta! Sygiinu, Wed 28 Nov 2007, 17:05, archived)
agreed.
though the "how, when, where and what" questions science answers still leaves the "why" to religion for the most part.
(I helped save b3ta! evilstevie misses the Orange Place of late, Wed 28 Nov 2007, 16:25, archived)
But that's just meaningless semantic twaddle.
Atheists don't 'believe' that gods don't exist. Any more than they 'believe' that the ovaltine pixies don't wank dew onto the grass in the morning.

The "don't" bit is the give away.
(I helped save b3ta! Dr. Shambolic je suis charlie, Wed 28 Nov 2007, 16:13, archived)
I'm pretty sure it's basic logic.

(I helped save b3ta! Sygiinu, Wed 28 Nov 2007, 16:15, archived)
No. It's semantic twaddle.
Not believing in something is not a belief.
(I helped save b3ta! Dr. Shambolic je suis charlie, Wed 28 Nov 2007, 16:17, archived)
Of course it is.
And I'm pretty sure that formal logic backs me up.
(I helped save b3ta! Sygiinu, Wed 28 Nov 2007, 16:23, archived)
Really? This could be terribly clever.
I'm not an apple.
What sort of apple does that make me?
(I helped save b3ta! Dr. Shambolic je suis charlie, Wed 28 Nov 2007, 16:28, archived)
No, you've selected an analogy that doesn't quite with what we're modeling here.
The case is more akin to having a circuit in which lightbulb lights if the logic level on a line is not 1.
(I helped save b3ta! Sygiinu, Wed 28 Nov 2007, 16:33, archived)
You're going to have to explain to me how that is in any way relevant.
Take your time. I'm quite clever and I work in electronics so I'll probably be able to follow it if you're patient.
(I helped save b3ta! Dr. Shambolic je suis charlie, Wed 28 Nov 2007, 16:45, archived)
Statistically, I'll bet that you're not as clever as me.
Over here, we're about 16 standard deviations up from the average IQ, and batting in excess of 175. So there's only about 100-200 people in the UK with a higher IQ.

It's also odd how you seem to work in whatever area it is that you're currently arguing about all the time.

I suggest a basic refresher course in logic.
(I helped save b3ta! Sygiinu, Wed 28 Nov 2007, 17:02, archived)
Hahaha.
You're honestly going to resort to a gong-waving competition rather than attempt to justify yourself? And not even real gongs ... Mensa gongs? That's weak. You can do better than that.

How about rather than attempting to patronise me, you actually answer my question? I genuinely don't understand and I'd quite like to know what you mean. (and I already have a PhD and a successful career so I probably won't take up your offer of a 'refresher course' ... thanks all the same)
(I helped save b3ta! Dr. Shambolic je suis charlie, Wed 28 Nov 2007, 17:05, archived)
hahaha a PhD means shit.
I'm not short of degrees my self, and I'll bet that I had them when I was younger than you too, given that I was the youngest physics grad ever from my university,

Additionally I work in a university too, half of the people here with PhDs couldn't form a logical argument if their life depended on it.

Edit: And if you'd like to discuss your career success I point you towards ownership of my own company, my two board appointments, and my board level consultantships to several multi-million pound turn over corporations.
(I helped save b3ta! Sygiinu, Wed 28 Nov 2007, 17:10, archived)
GONGS! LOOK AT THOSE GONGS!
Pay no attention to the argument behind the curtain! Look at the gongs!

You've lost, sonny. Give it up.
(I helped save b3ta! Dr. Shambolic je suis charlie, Wed 28 Nov 2007, 17:19, archived)
You started the gong waving by claiming to be terribly clever,
but you clearly can't compete so I'll let you back out of that one before it gets too embarrassing for you as everyone realises that you're a middle of the road average academic.

Congratulations on moving on to the the next Argument Success(TM) method of trying to make rumour equal truth though. You know you can get a book with about 10 of these in? I think you're only up to about 5 at the moment, so there's considerable scope for improvement.
(I helped save b3ta! Sygiinu, Wed 28 Nov 2007, 17:25, archived)
No I didn't.
I did not understand your point so I asked you to clarify. You apparently couldn't answer. That was the point where the discussion finished and the floundering started. Up there. The rest of this is just me allowing you to dig yourself into a hole labelled 'loser'.

And I've had your mum. Although granted I wasn't the youngest person ever to have her.
(I helped save b3ta! Dr. Shambolic je suis charlie, Wed 28 Nov 2007, 17:30, archived)
A new argument method!
Oh no, actually just a rehash of rumour equals fact.

You really are stupid, aren't you?

I couldn't careless what you think of me, as your thoughts have been demonstrated to be inaccurate and even fail to be self consistent.
(I helped save b3ta! Sygiinu, Wed 28 Nov 2007, 17:35, archived)
I think you're probably a perfectly nice and intelligent person
who has got too involved in an argument on the internet.
(I helped save b3ta! Dr. Shambolic je suis charlie, Wed 28 Nov 2007, 17:45, archived)
Another argument that isn't even self consistant with the previous ones.
But at least we're on to a new argument method now.

How many more can you think up?
(I helped save b3ta! Sygiinu, Wed 28 Nov 2007, 17:52, archived)
I most certainly can. I do it all the time.
Surely you've noticed?

Theism is all based on a simple premise: magic and that. It's all demonstrably nonsense and it is the broad acceptance of the harmless end of the nonsense that forms the platform upon which all the deeply harmful stuff is based.

Remove the platform, the house of cards comes tumbling down and I get to take a big smug shit on all the vicious little cunts at the top.
(I helped save b3ta! Dr. Shambolic je suis charlie, Wed 28 Nov 2007, 16:08, archived)
Ok, wrong choice of words on my part.
You can but it's wrong to. Not all religious people are harmful. In fact, I know quite a few who are very pleasant people and religion brings them comfort. What's so wrong with that?
(Psycho Eyes, Wed 28 Nov 2007, 16:11, archived)
What's wrong with it is that it includes the assumption that it's okay to believe false things.
In particular, that you have a personal, secret line of communication with the moral authority of the universe.
If that assumption weren't so vehemently defended by perfectly nice people, there'd be far less defense for more extreme, harmful religion and all sorts of other harmful things.
(I helped save b3ta! Newington, Wed 28 Nov 2007, 16:20, archived)
I'm pretty sure it is impossible to prove that God doesn't exist.

(I helped save b3ta! Sygiinu, Wed 28 Nov 2007, 16:12, archived)
Utter arse.
The various Gods and their various actions in the Universe are perfectly well documented in the religious texts of the various delusions. It's perfectly possible to invalidate every single one of them. All that's left at the end is an airy fairy hippy definition of some fluffy woolly feeling that 'something' exists out there.

Well ... you're welcome to that. It's entirely without meaning or import and it's not what any of the major religions are based upon.
(I helped save b3ta! Dr. Shambolic je suis charlie, Wed 28 Nov 2007, 16:15, archived)
Now you're arguing a different point.

(I helped save b3ta! Sygiinu, Wed 28 Nov 2007, 16:25, archived)
No I'm not.
The theists of the world have made it perfectly clear what they mean by 'God'. And that thing can be proved not to exist.

Inventing a new thing called 'God' is just plain cowardly bullshit.
(I helped save b3ta! Dr. Shambolic je suis charlie, Wed 28 Nov 2007, 16:30, archived)
Now you're just restating your original point, without any actual justification
You really need to learn how to argue more effectively.
(I helped save b3ta! Sygiinu, Wed 28 Nov 2007, 16:40, archived)
Is that you backing out of the discussion then?

(I helped save b3ta! Dr. Shambolic je suis charlie, Wed 28 Nov 2007, 16:46, archived)
No, but I've seen you try to several times,
so you must know that your argument is flawed.
(I helped save b3ta! Sygiinu, Wed 28 Nov 2007, 17:06, archived)
Bless. I almost miss being a teenager
and wearing that unassailable blanket of delusional self-confidence.
(I helped save b3ta! Dr. Shambolic je suis charlie, Wed 28 Nov 2007, 17:11, archived)
At least you've not improved your mental capabilities since.

(I helped save b3ta! Sygiinu, Wed 28 Nov 2007, 17:14, archived)
No. They've gone downhill slowly with age.
But I've learned how to carry an argument without resorting to name-calling and gongs. And I've still won this argument in the spare time between doing my real job. I really could almost get an erection with the excitement of it all if I weren't so old and decrepit.
(I helped save b3ta! Dr. Shambolic je suis charlie, Wed 28 Nov 2007, 17:26, archived)
You clearly haven't won though, as the messages you've posted show.
(But you're still in Rumour Equal Fact mode of argument)

And as for spare time, what you mean is that as well as being so stupid as to try to argue a point that is logically incorrect, you're also so professionally bankrupt as to fail to work the hours for which you are contracted.
(I helped save b3ta! Sygiinu, Wed 28 Nov 2007, 17:29, archived)
You're terribly aggressive when you're excited.
It isn't that attractive.
(I helped save b3ta! Dr. Shambolic je suis charlie, Wed 28 Nov 2007, 17:47, archived)
I've not mentioned anything agressive or excited.
You on the other hand, have been using such words and they show how you are feeling.
(I helped save b3ta! Sygiinu, Wed 28 Nov 2007, 17:50, archived)
An interesting piece of philosophical wanking, but useless and irrelevant.
Invisible pixies, etc. If there's no reason to believe something exists, you don't.

Also quite a recent notion. God as defined in the texts of any of the major religions has been observed not to exist every time anyone's looked.
(I helped save b3ta! Newington, Wed 28 Nov 2007, 16:27, archived)
Pretty much everything outside of pure mathematics is impossible to prove, in the strictest sense of the word
But weight of evidence is firmly on the side of his nonexistence, as long as you don't let religious people shift the goalposts halfway through
(I helped save b3ta! Cap'n Tallbeard, Wed 28 Nov 2007, 16:30, archived)
You can't really blame this one on religion.
There are plenty of muslim countrys out there that arn't totaly fucked up.
(I helped save b3ta! G/PP 💩💩💩💩💩&#128, Wed 28 Nov 2007, 16:10, archived)
You can't blame a theocratic government enforcing blasphemy laws on religion?
Yes you can. If their idea of Islam was correct, it would be the right thing to do. Admit that it isn't correct, and it's wrong.

To be able to see plainly that it's incorrect, you have to make the surprisingly difficult step of admitting that some things are false and there's no reason to believe them. That's a step that all religion wants to stop you taking.
(I helped save b3ta! Newington, Wed 28 Nov 2007, 16:23, archived)
The child should be flogged?

(I helped save b3ta! G/PP 💩💩💩💩💩&#128, Wed 28 Nov 2007, 15:54, archived)
For repeating his own name?

(I helped save b3ta! Damion International - now taking orders., Wed 28 Nov 2007, 16:01, archived)
Flog his parents!

(I helped save b3ta! Cap'n Tallbeard, Wed 28 Nov 2007, 16:02, archived)
YesI understand what you mean now , sorry I skimmed through the first post.
you are quiet right.
(I helped save b3ta! Damion International - now taking orders., Wed 28 Nov 2007, 15:48, archived)