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# Click for desperate attempts at justification:
(I helped save b3ta! Je suis un vagabond is an unfunny, up your own arse middle class knob, Wed 10 Aug 2011, 9:36, archived)
# Someone's looted your picture!


you're missing a 'b'
(I helped save b3ta! Wasp Box like a nervous random stranger at a glory hole, Wed 10 Aug 2011, 9:37, archived)
# Hahahahhahahaha fixed
EDIT: No I'm not - it's witty, post-modern comment on the state of education in Britain today.
(I helped save b3ta! Je suis un vagabond is an unfunny, up your own arse middle class knob, Wed 10 Aug 2011, 9:38, archived)
# Hurrah!
I always's enjoy blaming things on Thatcher.

I hope everyone enjoys your picture for what it is and doesn't enter into a big argument.
(I helped save b3ta! Wasp Box like a nervous random stranger at a glory hole, Wed 10 Aug 2011, 9:40, archived)
# Hahahaha
Hippy.
(I helped save b3ta! Je suis un vagabond is an unfunny, up your own arse middle class knob, Wed 10 Aug 2011, 9:42, archived)
# *picks up a mid-sized hefting brick*
Say that again, racist.
(I helped save b3ta! Wasp Box like a nervous random stranger at a glory hole, Wed 10 Aug 2011, 9:50, archived)
# I SAID
SHUT UP, YOU HIPPY.
(I helped save b3ta! Je suis un vagabond is an unfunny, up your own arse middle class knob, Wed 10 Aug 2011, 9:51, archived)
# *loots a new age bookstore*
That'll teach ya!
(I helped save b3ta! Wasp Box like a nervous random stranger at a glory hole, Wed 10 Aug 2011, 10:00, archived)
# Yeah right like that would happen.
"Ooo hey look Strykah - the karmic teachings in the Buddhist philosophy within the teachings of Zen purport that actions visited upon others will be visited upon those doing the actions ... "
(I helped save b3ta! Je suis un vagabond is an unfunny, up your own arse middle class knob, Wed 10 Aug 2011, 10:08, archived)
# lol
(I helped save b3ta! drbroon abloooobloobloo, Wed 10 Aug 2011, 10:27, archived)
# Found it!
'b' *points* Look, there it is!
(I helped save b3ta! J Peasemould Gruntfuttock Alpha Mike Foxtrot, Wed 10 Aug 2011, 10:05, archived)
# arf!
(I helped save b3ta! h3donist tryin' to play me out as if my name is Sega.., Wed 10 Aug 2011, 9:43, archived)
# Nasty men!!! Grrrr!
strange to be sympathising with the police for a change

if only the rioters had the brains to target bankers' mansions instead, i could get back to normal
(I helped save b3ta! cakeburglar still bored with Freebase, Wed 10 Aug 2011, 9:45, archived)
# ah well, I tried
I wasn't trying to justify anything about the riots, just that I feel people are losing sight of the fact that the government have caused the disorder. I don't sympathise with the people burning and looting whatsoever, but am not willing to go down the route of blinkered branding of the problem as just chav scum being chav scum.

There are reasons behind this and there are ways to prevent it happening.
(I helped save b3ta! drbroon abloooobloobloo, Wed 10 Aug 2011, 10:46, archived)
# What are the reasons, and how has the government caused the disorder?
(_Felix 's school of dance and occult sciences, Wed 10 Aug 2011, 10:51, archived)
# I don't know the precise reasons, just suggested a few possibilities
the government has made cuts in areas which were too vulnerable to cut. Benefits have been reduced, less jobs for uneducated/unqualified people, funds have been and are being reallocated away from hospitals in more deprived areas of England, less money allocated to community development schemes and social housing... etc. Again, in case this angers anyone that I'm not appearing to jump on the all-out hatred wagon, I'm not justifying, sympathising etc *yawn* that's enough.
(I helped save b3ta! drbroon abloooobloobloo, Wed 10 Aug 2011, 10:59, archived)
# Still don't get it.
I've been unemployed, I've been bored, I've been angry.

Oddly, I've never thought to loot and burn down a shop to get what I want, though, I've always been under the impression that I should get a job and earn the money to get what I want. Clearly I was wrong about this. I'm going to start mugging grannies - they tend to go down like a sack of spuds once you hit them.

I take it McDonald's aren't taking on staff these days. Or Starbucks. Or Burger King. Or Greggs. Or the council.

Yeah. I'm not happy. I think I might go and torch something. It's my right (I know my rights). What are they gonna do? The prisons are full - give me an ASBO? I'll wear it.
(I helped save b3ta! Je suis un vagabond is an unfunny, up your own arse middle class knob, Wed 10 Aug 2011, 11:05, archived)
# yes, you've been brought up well.
others have not.

We can either ignore that environments exist in which people are brought up to display such behaviour or seek to deal with the reasons for it.
(I helped save b3ta! drbroon abloooobloobloo, Wed 10 Aug 2011, 11:14, archived)
# Well - if you'd like to lay out the excuses for not bringing someone up well, that would be great.
"Being poor" is not an excuse. I know plenty of people - some of whom don't even have their own butlers - who are impecably behaved, despite having been brought up very much on the wrong side of the tracks.
(I helped save b3ta! Je suis un vagabond is an unfunny, up your own arse middle class knob, Wed 10 Aug 2011, 11:19, archived)
# "Why are chavs" is a huge enigma, though.
What you've just said there is pretty much "chavs because chavs".
Once again, though, you might be right. The whole thing might just be noise.
(_Felix 's school of dance and occult sciences, Wed 10 Aug 2011, 11:23, archived)
# not excuses, reasons.
poor health and education of parents are factors.
(I helped save b3ta! drbroon abloooobloobloo, Wed 10 Aug 2011, 11:29, archived)
# It's a recursive thing, isn't it?
Being brought up badly would explain why that person then brings someone else up badly.

From a lot of comments I've seen dismissing any idea of upbringing being a factor, I think a lot of people don't like the idea that we can be raised to be bad, simply because it means that our personalities are merely a product of luck, rather than some magical unchangable thing special to ourselves.

That said, excusing the violence entirely because of 'society' is not only dumb, but incredibly patronising to people from the same backgrounds who do not act like that.
(I helped save b3ta! monkeon schmonkeon, Wed 10 Aug 2011, 11:44, archived)
# I've said many times, that I am not excusing anything
(I helped save b3ta! drbroon abloooobloobloo, Wed 10 Aug 2011, 11:48, archived)
# Sorry, that line wasn't aimed at you.
I agree with your stance.

It was more a general comment on many comments I've seen that do seem completely divided down two extreme opinions, and refusing to accept that it can be both the individual and society to blame.
(I helped save b3ta! monkeon schmonkeon, Wed 10 Aug 2011, 11:54, archived)
# Oh, the upbringing angle
that's even more baffling territory. I'm a bit afraid the riots will be used to argue for all sorts of harsh and primitive discipline, and cause pointless heartache and pain and screwed-upness for future generations, who will still riot anyway.
(_Felix 's school of dance and occult sciences, Wed 10 Aug 2011, 11:21, archived)
# yep that's a valid worry
(I helped save b3ta! drbroon abloooobloobloo, Wed 10 Aug 2011, 11:30, archived)
# Sadly I suspect you are right.
The whole thing flags up lots of long-term problems which need fixing - schooling etc, but I suspect that they will all be ignored for quick fixes in dealing with crime after the event.
(I helped save b3ta! monkeon schmonkeon, Wed 10 Aug 2011, 11:49, archived)
# I was more worrying about headteachers recommending that parents say "no" more
and blaming the riots on a failure of parents to say "no". And then the parents say "no" to their kids a lot, thinking that they're instilling a sense of discipline and obedience, resulting in kids who are both angrier and more ignorant (because they haven't been allowed experiences), and worse at relating to people (because any attempt at negotiation over something they want just leads to "no").
(_Felix 's school of dance and occult sciences, Wed 10 Aug 2011, 12:03, archived)
# ahem
Just because the rioters are "criminal scum", does not mean it is not sensible to work out (and implement) ways of reducing the production of "criminal scum" attitudes in the future.

Edit: it's nice that y'all can pattern match and work out that vandals/looters are antisocial criminals. But pattern matching gives only a diagnosis, it isn't a cure. A cure involves understanding the dynamics of how people come to behave like that, and working to change or control those dynamics.
(haberman is singing in the changes, Wed 10 Aug 2011, 11:58, archived)
# Agreed!
(I helped save b3ta! Wasp Box like a nervous random stranger at a glory hole, Wed 10 Aug 2011, 12:09, archived)
# excellent
I notice there aren't any angry responses to this. Is it because you're more concise, or simply because you're absolutely right?
(I helped save b3ta! drbroon abloooobloobloo, Wed 10 Aug 2011, 22:10, archived)
# Whose benefits have been reduced?
I think standard JSA and housing benefit are still the same (though there were some rumblings about changing the latter soon, I don't think it's happened yet). The threshold for what counts as disability was changed, I think, but is that all?

I'm not sure which publicly-funded jobs employ the unqualified. I don't think a vast number of unqualified workers have been sacked from employment by the government, but I might be wrong. I think in the riot-struck cities there is still plenty of shitwork in factories, and was even through the recession.

The rioting isn't happening the deprived areas of England, it's happening in the biggest cities.

Still, cuts make people generally cross. Cuts are a factor. Then you have to ask whether they're a thing to blame and regret, or not.
Like how if I go out dressed in an extraordinarily sexually provocative way and get raped, the way I dressed was a factor, but it's not to blame.
(_Felix 's school of dance and occult sciences, Wed 10 Aug 2011, 11:11, archived)
# JSA is now EA? I think and the criteria are different and cuts to the amounts and thresholds have come in for some
Lack of social care, support and education contributes to people developing a disrespect for society, police, etc. My suggestions before were possible factors that cause collective frustration and anger.

I work in social care just now and am constantly trying to encourage the kids I work with to respect the police and the law, but I often see that they don't give a fuck, because they don't have anything to aspire to. The kids that show the most potential to become model citizens are the ones I and others have managed to motivate to get jobs, though actually getting them jobs has been slow and very difficult. Others, where they have no prospects have a kind of learned helplessness and don't feel the need to adhere to any rules, be that a result of peers, upbringing, helplessness, lack of education, whatever. It is a wider societal problem that is at the moment being expressed by these riots. The problems need to be addressed by the government or things will only get worse.
(I helped save b3ta! drbroon abloooobloobloo, Wed 10 Aug 2011, 11:26, archived)
# I wasn't going to join in
as I prefer to discuss weighty matters with people I know in real life.

I agree with some of your arguments but also empathise with Vagabond's point of view, and ultimately, like _Felix I think, I believe that there's a middle ground (please visit me on my fence sometime).

Anyway, all I reall wanted to add is that I think the last line of your post above is correct and verry very important.

(I helped save b3ta! Wasp Box like a nervous random stranger at a glory hole, Wed 10 Aug 2011, 11:41, archived)
# I'm not sure what it means.
I'm guessing "employ more people in public services" - right?
(_Felix 's school of dance and occult sciences, Wed 10 Aug 2011, 11:46, archived)
# Not necessarily, and I don't have any quick answers
But I believe rhetoric from both government and opposition politicians achieves nothing and that long-term positive action (whatever that is) by government rather than negative quick-fixes is the way to make the current situation less rather than more likely in future.
(I helped save b3ta! Wasp Box like a nervous random stranger at a glory hole, Wed 10 Aug 2011, 11:57, archived)
# Things like this can't have helped...
www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/jul/29/young-people-gangs-youth-clubs-close
(I helped save b3ta! monkeon schmonkeon, Wed 10 Aug 2011, 12:00, archived)
# "the fact that the government have caused the disorder"
No they have not - the rioters have caused the disorder.

This is not in any way about disenfranchisement; it's about opportunitism only.

The blame lies at nobody's feet but those who have taken part in the riots.
(I helped save b3ta! Je suis un vagabond is an unfunny, up your own arse middle class knob, Wed 10 Aug 2011, 10:54, archived)
# I want to know what broon's theory is, though.
Your explanation might be right, but is a bit unsatisfying.
(_Felix 's school of dance and occult sciences, Wed 10 Aug 2011, 10:58, archived)
# That's me all over.
(I helped save b3ta! Je suis un vagabond is an unfunny, up your own arse middle class knob, Wed 10 Aug 2011, 11:05, archived)
# It's clear that you don't wish to look at the wider problems that have been happily ignored for many years
If they continue to be ignored by the government, this sort of disorder will keep happening in the future.

Of course the people perpetrating these crimes are responsible for their actions, but these people are not created in a vacuum. Arresting the perpetrators is necessary, but is only a short-term solution.
(I helped save b3ta! drbroon abloooobloobloo, Wed 10 Aug 2011, 11:09, archived)
# In this instance there aren't any wider problems.
It's just opportunism.
(I helped save b3ta! Je suis un vagabond is an unfunny, up your own arse middle class knob, Wed 10 Aug 2011, 11:20, archived)
# in your expert opinion, I suppose
keep watching the bbc, it agrees with you.
(I helped save b3ta! drbroon abloooobloobloo, Wed 10 Aug 2011, 11:29, archived)
# Joe S has it on the money:
b3ta.com/links/665517

(I helped save b3ta! Je suis un vagabond is an unfunny, up your own arse middle class knob, Wed 10 Aug 2011, 12:32, archived)
# I agree
so does monkeon b3ta.com/board/10504459

and haberman b3ta.com/board/10504458
(I helped save b3ta! drbroon abloooobloobloo, Wed 10 Aug 2011, 22:08, archived)
# *Sigh*
Okay, I think there's been too much roundabouting here, and it seems that the message you originally put down has been twisted...

Yes I agree that there are problems in Britain and yes, people have a right to feel wronged if they have tried and failed to make a life for themselves

However, attaching this legitimate outrage to the recent LOOTING seems like a bit of a betrayal... There are plenty of disaffected, unemployed, rightfully angry people who have not decided to take the opportunity to destroy public property or private businesses and make off with whatever they can carry...

There are ways and means to change the state of things, wanton, aimless destruction is going to solve precisely NOTHING... So people who want change tend not to go down that route!
(Fenristhewolf ..back once again on, Wed 10 Aug 2011, 11:43, archived)
# I agree. I simply posited reasons that this is happening, these are not exhaustive reasons, simply a wider reason than just a lot of individual anti-social people
(I helped save b3ta! drbroon abloooobloobloo, Wed 10 Aug 2011, 11:51, archived)
# It's a fair point
The social issues are the tinder-box here... but the bandwagoning effect has stolen any credibility from anyone who had an original grievance, at least in this case
(Fenristhewolf ..back once again on, Wed 10 Aug 2011, 11:57, archived)