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"well done... criticism of Israel is now seen as tantamount to racism"
and then I remembered that everyone is fucking stupid and i'm just waiting for everyones smartphones to give them cancer like some sort of 70s asbestos scare.
( , Fri 29 Apr 2016, 10:51, Share, Reply)
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( , Fri 29 Apr 2016, 10:57, Share, Reply)
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( , Fri 29 Apr 2016, 17:51, Share, Reply)
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It's Israel's international defence policy. Anyone criticises them, they get their media chums to scream Anti-Semite at 'em.
And everyone thought Hitler wasn't very nice. :(
( , Fri 29 Apr 2016, 22:50, Share, Reply)
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(a) The press
(b) The other side of the house
( , Fri 29 Apr 2016, 10:58, Share, Reply)
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Labour Party. And the guardian, and everyone with a functioning fucking brain.
( , Fri 29 Apr 2016, 11:06, Share, Reply)
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Assume I have no prior knowledge. Although I do know who Hitler is.
( , Fri 29 Apr 2016, 11:17, Share, Reply)
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and someone else said, 'ooh, that means you hate all Jews and are a racist' so they had to be told off. And then someone else said 'hang on, that's not really the same thing', and then someone else said, 'ooh, that means you hate all Jews and are a racist', and so on, and so on.
( , Fri 29 Apr 2016, 11:32, Share, Reply)
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Downplaying what's been said actually exacerbates the situation.
( , Fri 29 Apr 2016, 11:45, Share, Reply)
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( , Fri 29 Apr 2016, 12:03, Share, Reply)
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(b) How many words were written by the newspapers reporting them (including headlines but not including direct quotes)?
I would sugggest that the ratio of (b) to (a) might be weighed against the phrase 'verbatim reporting', and the latter come out wanting.
( , Fri 29 Apr 2016, 12:10, Share, Reply)
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you're conflating reportage with comment. Newspapers would be pretty thin without the latter.
( , Fri 29 Apr 2016, 12:18, Share, Reply)
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(1) Naz Shah MP (Labour) said that she thought Jews in Isreal should be relocated to the US to form a new state there.
(2) She was suspended from the Labour party, despite apologising, owing to this being an obviously anti-semitic thing to say.
(3) Ken Livingstone (Labour) did an interview, where he didn't say anything racist or anti-semitic.
(4) However, he DID attempt to defend Naz Shah, claiming that SHE hadn't said anything racist or anti-semitic, which was so obviously not the case.
(5) Now people are mixing up the concepts of BEING racist, and being an APOLOGIST for racism, so Livingstone appears to have been suspended for being racist, when he should have actually been suspended for being stupid.
( , Fri 29 Apr 2016, 12:07, Share, Reply)
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(anti-historically) that Hitler was a zionist before he went mad and killed 6 million Jews. And he has plenty of form.
There are two elephants in the room.
1. Muslim anti-semitism. It's real. It's in the Koran and the Hamas charter.And it isn't just 'the israeli government is bad m'kay'
2. Left's hatred of Israel because it's backed by Amerikkka.
( , Fri 29 Apr 2016, 12:13, Share, Reply)
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He has form, and is probably a little bit racist. I don't deny that.
But I don't think that Hitler quote was racist. It was factually inaccurate, utterly irrelevant, and preposterously stupid, but I don't think it was inherently racist.
I think they should've made it clear that he was suspended for being a massive bell-end rather than for being racist.
Don't get me wrong, I'm on your side... I think Naz Shah and Livingstone are appalling, but I also think that too many terms are being erroneously conflated and the debate is becoming muddied as a result. So let's call Livingstone what he is... a massive bell-end.
( , Fri 29 Apr 2016, 12:24, Share, Reply)
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Into a comment about Israel by accident. He did it to offend and upset.
( , Fri 29 Apr 2016, 13:00, Share, Reply)
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to offend and upset. It wouldn't be racist.
( , Fri 29 Apr 2016, 14:00, Share, Reply)
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She did not say 'Jews'.
( , Fri 29 Apr 2016, 12:13, Share, Reply)
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with the word Indians and ask yourself if that would be racist.
She obviously didn't mean the Muslim residents of Israel, so please don't feign wilful ignorance of the fact that this was obviously racist.
( , Fri 29 Apr 2016, 12:18, Share, Reply)
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if you replace the word relocated with exterminated, you get a sense of what a monster she really is.
( , Fri 29 Apr 2016, 12:27, Share, Reply)
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I can imagine that if Trump gets in, America could actually start gassing minorities.
( , Fri 29 Apr 2016, 12:39, Share, Reply)
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Changing Israeli to Indian keeps it meaning almost exactly the same thing, just about an arbitrarily different ethnic group.
Saying Israelis should relocate is exactly as racist as saying Indians should relocate.
( , Fri 29 Apr 2016, 14:03, Share, Reply)
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She has referred to "the Jews" in more than one tweet, and not in a flattering way.
( , Fri 29 Apr 2016, 12:22, Share, Reply)
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feel free to liberally sprinkle the word 'Jews' into any other sentence she uses in the future when quoting her then.
(not trying to defend her here, but this thing about replacing words when quoting immediately undermines the credibility of the person doing the quoting.)
( , Fri 29 Apr 2016, 12:31, Share, Reply)
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A quote is a quote. If you insert words or replace words it's not a quote. Stupid fucking spastic.
( , Fri 29 Apr 2016, 12:44, Share, Reply)
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ding ding ding
and don't act coy, you know you were implying she meant Jews when she said Israelis, and you aren't the only one implying or explicitly saying that it's what she said.
and I wouldn't have to point such stupidly fucking obvious things if you would stop misrepresenting people, or could even just serve up the full pint of your mind piss without spilling half of it down your trousers.
( , Fri 29 Apr 2016, 12:53, Share, Reply)
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she said "The Jews are rallying". She used the word "Jews". Not "Israelis", "Jews". The exact word she used was "Jews". Fact. Google it you ill informed lying cunt.
www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/apr/27/naz-shah-timeline-of-events-leading-to-mps-suspension-from-labour
( , Fri 29 Apr 2016, 13:11, Share, Reply)
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see the post that started this chain, where eViLegion says:
"said that she thought Jews in Isreal should be relocated to the US"?
that is not the same thing as (stupidly) suggesting Israel be subsumed into America, which would presumably entail some sort of optional relocation for EVERY Israeli, rather than just Jewish Israelis.
(I understand the actual post, just had the text "problem solved")
that she has talked about Jews in other contexts is not something I am disputing.... or talking about.
in this case (you know- the one I was actually talking about) it's pretty simple, so stop muddying the waters between talking about Israel and talking about 'The Jews', you simpleton.
( , Fri 29 Apr 2016, 18:12, Share, Reply)
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what's with the attitude?
do you expect you can just tire people out with your shitty insults and 'win an argument' that way?
if you actually have a serious point to make, I suspect most people here will listen even if you DONT call them a cunt.
( , Fri 29 Apr 2016, 18:24, Share, Reply)
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I know the one you were referring to. It didn't mention Jews. Another one did. You called me a liar when you said she never referred to Jews. She did. The attitude is uncool. But you're not fully appraised of all the facts so I got very angry and obnoxious. I'm sick of all the apologists, especially when they only know about one part of the story.
( , Fri 29 Apr 2016, 18:50, Share, Reply)
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I'm not defending her comments, just want to make sure that if she is expelled, that its for the things she actually said.
and no, I don't know everything she said.
if only the sum of all her communications is considered anti-semitic, then lets say she that she said A, B and C. but can we not mash them together to save time.
"You called me a liar when you said she never referred to Jews"
also, I never call you a liar, and I didn't say that she never referred to Jews.
( , Fri 29 Apr 2016, 19:42, Share, Reply)
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But your IMPLICATION, and not my inference, was crystal clear. Rest easy knowing that my egregious insults reflect very badly on me. My flaws are legion. Nevertheless, your fatous sixth common room Marxism is more tedious than toothache. However my aggressive and offensive replies to yours do undermine my credibility. You're still a cunt though, comrade. But I bear you no ill will in reality. I hope you and yours live long and prosper.
( , Fri 29 Apr 2016, 20:51, Share, Reply)
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Racism is racism whether it's based on skin colour, ethnicity, religion, or nationality.
( , Fri 29 Apr 2016, 14:51, Share, Reply)
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She's been pulled up on several social media posts. In the relocate Israel to America one, the word Jew isn't used, so some idiots are saying it's not naughty. However in another post she does use the word Jews, whereas had she used the word Israelis it wouldn't really been an issue, it was about a vote on something.
( , Fri 29 Apr 2016, 15:03, Share, Reply)
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...since I'm definitely agreeing with you...?
( , Fri 29 Apr 2016, 16:42, Share, Reply)
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Can't you see I'm in full on argument mode? I've gone full retard.
( , Fri 29 Apr 2016, 17:36, Share, Reply)
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arab israelis? It kinda proves that by 'israeli' she meant 'jew'
( , Fri 29 Apr 2016, 14:06, Share, Reply)
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So to equate the two just displays your own bigotry and ignorance.
( , Fri 29 Apr 2016, 18:03, Share, Reply)
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That bigoted harridan Diane Abbott is still in their pin-up calendar ffs.
If a tory MP had made these comments the left would be howling like chimps at a free PG Tips convention.
( , Fri 29 Apr 2016, 12:16, Share, Reply)
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0) guido fawkes digs up 2 year old facebook page, says they should be fired for anti-semitism
2.5) guido fawkes and newspapers say Labour now in crisis/chaos/meltdown etc
Not that I'm claiming some sort of conspiracy, nor that the aforementioned politicians' remarks weren't stupid.
It does seem to revolve around some people believing that:
- (anti)-zionism
- antisemitism
- criticism of the Israeli government's actions
- criticism of the concepts and beliefs of Judaism
...are all exactly the same thing.
( , Fri 29 Apr 2016, 12:28, Share, Reply)
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Isn't that whole "She said that..." part of the problem? Why can't we have reports that tell us "She said..." with a copy and paste of what she actually said?
I still don't know what Naz Shah said because no one wants to tell me. Not even the BBC.
How can I decide if it is relevant to me, if I don't know what it is.
( , Fri 29 Apr 2016, 12:29, Share, Reply)
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depicting the outline of the state of Israel within the outline of the United States of America, with the caption 'Problem solved'.
Although obviously to some around here 'Problem solved' means the same thing as 'Final solution' and off they go again...
( , Fri 29 Apr 2016, 13:45, Share, Reply)
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There some handy links below.
Ultimately I get the impression she thinks Israel is the big villain, jews are on land that historically belongs to muslims (factually incorrect), and a solution would be to move Israel's population to America, which would solve nothing if you think about it as virtually all the conflict in the Middle_east is rooted within branches of Islam itself. So she seems like a bit of a twat, as well as obviously a bigoted one
( , Fri 29 Apr 2016, 13:59, Share, Reply)
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order-order.com/2016/04/27/naz-shah-suspended-by-labour/
And there's a piece in the Guardian reminding us why Ken Livingstone is a racist cunt: www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/apr/28/antisemitism-rocked-labour-self-belief
( , Fri 29 Apr 2016, 13:49, Share, Reply)
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What did she say? Why can't anyone seem to answer that?
( , Fri 29 Apr 2016, 14:38, Share, Reply)
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order-order.com/2016/04/26/naz-shah-the-jews-are-rallying/
( , Fri 29 Apr 2016, 14:52, Share, Reply)
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I don't think I will voting for this terrible terrible woman. It's the honest journalists at The Mirror who are the real victims here. Who knows, if it wasn't for this womans actions, usVsTh3m may still be running.
( , Fri 29 Apr 2016, 15:35, Share, Reply)
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It doesn't necessarily mean you're not still a fucking idiot incapable of independent thought.
( , Fri 29 Apr 2016, 11:31, Share, Reply)
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Well over a dozen Labour M.P.s, as well as numerous Labour Party members have been highly critical of this shit storm.
( , Fri 29 Apr 2016, 11:18, Share, Reply)
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I don't like shitstorms.
I also don't like it when people point fingers and shout 'racist' in a guilty attempt to draw attention away from their own vile bigotry, on behalf of people they know and care little about and who are quite capable of forming their own opinions.
( , Fri 29 Apr 2016, 11:37, Share, Reply)
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I don't think a load of racists are crying wolf over anti-semitism to cover up their own racism.
( , Fri 29 Apr 2016, 11:41, Share, Reply)
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might self-righteously accuse others of possessing their own guilty failings?
Is it also a conspiracy when someone who refuses to take a side in an argument is accused of bias by one side, or the other, or even both at the same time?
I'd call that 'shit people do' rather than 'conspiracy theory'.
I'd even go so far as to suggest that that's exactly what you're doing.
My point is that ignoring the genuine opinion of a particular group of people, and automatically pretending to be offended or taking up a crusade on their behalf, is in itself just another form of ignorance and bigotry.
( , Fri 29 Apr 2016, 12:04, Share, Reply)
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This whole 'anti-Zionism isn't anti-semitism' means Zionism requires a clear definition. I used to think that being opposed to Israeli expansionist foreign policy was anti-Zionist and so was not unsympathetic to those who declared themselves anti-Zionist. IMO anti-Zionism has increasingly come to mean opposition to the very right of the state of Israel to continue to exist, which I think clearly is anti-Semitic. Also Vice is a sack of shite for hipsters.
( , Fri 29 Apr 2016, 11:13, Share, Reply)
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"opposition to the very right of the state of Israel to continue to exist, [is] I think clearly is anti-Semitic"
Is it? By what "right" does the state of Israel exist, given that it didn't in 1947? Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying all the people living there should be driven into the sea or whatever it is their rabid haters want, but... by what "right" does *any* state exist?
Does some bunch of people have a "right" to come to England and say "Right, this place is now called Bongolia, and you have to go live in Yorkshire, just the top bit, and we're building a wall round it"? How would they come by this "right"? Sure, if they had bombs and tanks and helicopters and US backing they could make it happen... but a "right"? Help me, I'm not understanding zis.
( , Fri 29 Apr 2016, 12:07, Share, Reply)
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However the fact is Israel does now exist. Should the U.S. and U.K. et al have helped create it back in 1947? I would argue that they shouldn't have done. But hindsight is a beautiful thing. I don't think the international community can now say to Israel "Sorry chaps, this isn't really working out, you've had a good seven decade run, but now it's time to pack your bags." But on the other hand the settlers going outside the original borders is IMO unacceptable.
( , Fri 29 Apr 2016, 12:15, Share, Reply)
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Everybody has to be somewhere. But countries come and go. Borders change. When I was a kid you could go on holiday to Yugoslavia, for instance.
No state has a "right" to exist.
( , Fri 29 Apr 2016, 13:39, Share, Reply)
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But any state that currently does exist has a right to attempt to continue to do so.
And whether or not anyone else likes it, ALL states will make their best attempt to continue to exist.
Corner an animal and try to attack it and you'll quickly find yourself subject to it's teeth and claws. Whether or not you think it has a moral right to brandish those teeth and claws is essentially irrelevant... brandish them it will.
( , Fri 29 Apr 2016, 16:46, Share, Reply)
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and existed as such for at least 1000 years before Mohammad was even born.
I'm not saying that's justification, I'm just saying that the Palestinians have just as poor a claim to it as the Israelis do, since they both got the land by conquest... but if we're going to side with the original owners, it'd be the Jewish people.
( , Fri 29 Apr 2016, 12:17, Share, Reply)
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Hmmmm - this would be the 'homeland' of the 'wandering tribes of Israel' that lots of sky pixie believers have written of?
Keyword: Wandering
( , Fri 29 Apr 2016, 12:27, Share, Reply)
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( , Fri 29 Apr 2016, 12:51, Share, Reply)
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( , Fri 29 Apr 2016, 12:53, Share, Reply)
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then you have to support the Jews, who have the earliest historical claim.
The OTHER point is that that line of argument is inherently bullshit.
( , Fri 29 Apr 2016, 14:11, Share, Reply)
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They wrote a book that said they were God's chosen people (why anyone would ever take umbrage to such a claim is beyond me!) and that they were there first so it's theirs.
Now, the only proof that they were indeed there first is the absence of any other written record or archaeological evidence contradicting that.
In any case, it's a silly argument. You'd need to turf everyone not native american out of the USA, most english and australians would have to relocate to saxony... historical claims.. pfft.
( , Fri 29 Apr 2016, 15:16, Share, Reply)
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Those Cumbrians with their bloody swaggers.
( , Fri 29 Apr 2016, 12:22, Share, Reply)
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Eh what?
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neturei_Karta
( , Fri 29 Apr 2016, 13:04, Share, Reply)
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Criticism of a state is now virtually considered a hate crime. Totally manufactured situation by those that wish to bring down Corbyn whilst the Conservatives giggle on the sidelines.
( , Fri 29 Apr 2016, 11:38, Share, Reply)
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Strange that Saudi Arabia (for example) actually is a religion-based theocracy, yet criticising their various policies *isn't* generally equated with being anti-islamic.
Israel on the other hand is, ostensibly, secular and only 75-ish% jewish people, yet criticising their govt is often conflated with being anti-jewish.
This post isn't about defending islam/judaism/whatever. I'm trying to figure out why there's a difference.
( , Fri 29 Apr 2016, 12:34, Share, Reply)
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...you're a cunt.
If you're a cunt, sane** people should be able to call your actions cuntish.
*By which I mean all religions
**Those who don't have any fear of or belief in sky pixies.
( , Fri 29 Apr 2016, 12:23, Share, Reply)