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Thought for the day
A free market society offers a "take-it-or-leave-it" approach to dealing with issues - if you disapprove of Nestle, you can boycott them, for instance. Similarly with online communities, you can always just log off if you don't like what they offer. This is presented as increased participation and freedom of expression.

However, the normal method of expressing disapproval has been to discuss matters, form consensus and compromise. Ostracism/rejection has always been the last step, when all else has failed, and punishes both rejectee and rejecter by denying them any further benefits of involvement.

Modern society is therefore not leading to greater freedom, insofar as greater stakes to resolve at each difference leads to less freedom and more resentment. Compromise is not an option, "take it or leave it" is too final a deadline, and people are forced into one-sided compromise, denial of options, and less than optimum happiness. Would you agree?

tl;dr - what do you look for physically in a potential mate?
(I helped save b3ta! Flapjack I spay a little mare for you, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:17, archived)
a hole

(El Guiri the only b3tan who is not fat, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:18, archived)
I MIGHT AGREE if i paid attention

(I helped save b3ta! sleepybinky, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:18, archived)
dark hair, strong arms, and a happy smile.
2/3 ain't bad.
(I helped save b3ta! sleepybinky, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:19, archived)
pedo

(El Guiri the only b3tan who is not fat, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:20, archived)
haha, nice forum banter

(I helped save b3ta! mongychops, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:25, archived)
OR cute and small, with big eyes and shortish dark hair.
but i've never had one of them, so i'm doing my best to become one instead.
(I helped save b3ta! sleepybinky, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:24, archived)
it mostly involves shrinking and wearing clothes with ears.

(I helped save b3ta! sleepybinky, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:27, archived)
YEA bunny hood

(I helped save b3ta! spangolin - the odds are good but the goods are odd, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:28, archived)
YEAH AND my cat hat.

(I helped save b3ta! sleepybinky, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:28, archived)
zomg cat hat too?
snap!
(I helped save b3ta! spangolin - the odds are good but the goods are odd, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:29, archived)
YOU HAVE A CUTE WHITE CATHAT.
mine is grey and ugly and it scares my cats.
(I helped save b3ta! sleepybinky, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:30, archived)
it's brilliant.
i wore it to sainsburies the other day because i felt sad.
(I helped save b3ta! sleepybinky, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:31, archived)
nooo black and pink!

(I helped save b3ta! spangolin - the odds are good but the goods are odd, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:36, archived)
oh.
I DEMAND PROOF.
(I helped save b3ta! sleepybinky, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:37, archived)

farm4.static.flickr.com/3643/3288766828_9960d30ac0.jpg?v=0
(I helped save b3ta! spangolin - the odds are good but the goods are odd, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:49, archived)
oh oh oh i like it.
i need more eared headgear.
(I helped save b3ta! sleepybinky, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:55, archived)
ebay used to have a shop that sold them
it's not there any more :(
(I helped save b3ta! spangolin - the odds are good but the goods are odd, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:57, archived)
i remember a picture of you with white ears.

(I helped save b3ta! sleepybinky, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:38, archived)
amelie?

(El Guiri the only b3tan who is not fat, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:35, archived)
That's totally me.

(rnuk http://flickr.com/rnuk, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:35, archived)
that one is for girls, dummy.

(I helped save b3ta! sleepybinky, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:36, archived)
Good sense of humour and pretty enough to make the last one jealous

(I helped save b3ta! Donkey Gums @mattcomedy, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:18, archived)
is sense of humour physical?

(I helped save b3ta! sleepybinky, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:19, archived)
It is in DG's case.

(I helped save b3ta! Flapjack I spay a little mare for you, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:20, archived)
I'm a sucker for a girl who can do a good robot dance

(I helped save b3ta! Donkey Gums @mattcomedy, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:24, archived)
Joking aside, I think a good sense of humour is about it for me.
But I've never been out with someone who wasn't a bit thick in the humour stakes. I've got a terrible taste in women.

I always go for amazing breasts and it always goes wrong. That's why I'm having a break from girls for a bit. Have had GFs even since I can remember.
(I helped save b3ta! Donkey Gums @mattcomedy, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:20, archived)
fuck me that sounds so big headed.

(I helped save b3ta! Donkey Gums @mattcomedy, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:25, archived)
None of that sounds big headed.
You're admitting having made poor choices in women in the past (based on rather shallow, yet understandable requirements).
(I helped save b3ta! RR I love you ... in a way, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:28, archived)
YAY BOOBIES

(I helped save b3ta! sleepybinky, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:45, archived)
I guess it depends on what level you interact.
People who have the same sense of humour are pretty few and far between. I wouldn't say that anyone I have previously dated and who didn't share my sense of humour was "thick in the humour stakes," just that they enjoyed different comedy.
(I helped save b3ta! Lord Gnome, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:29, archived)
My sense of humour is me. It's my most important and best quality I feel :S
I'm talking about the usual bimbos who will sit through a mixed routine stand up gig, not laugh once and ask for everything to be explained....guuuuuuhh

Also about finding someone who gets my sense of humour is quite daunting because I'm a weirdo :(
(I helped save b3ta! Donkey Gums @mattcomedy, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:33, archived)
Still, tits eh?

(rnuk http://flickr.com/rnuk, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:36, archived)
waab waab waab waab waab
They'll do in the meantime.
(I helped save b3ta! Donkey Gums @mattcomedy, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:36, archived)
And then you make this face
wwwimg.bbc.co.uk/feedengine/homepage/images/sport/_45931590_monye466_146x110.jpg
(rnuk http://flickr.com/rnuk, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:41, archived)
And then this face
www.idler.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2007/11/cantona.jpg
(I helped save b3ta! Donkey Gums @mattcomedy, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:55, archived)
and then this
www.khaaan.com/
(rnuk http://flickr.com/rnuk, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:59, archived)
So rather than being 'thick in the humour stakes', they're just thick.

(I helped save b3ta! RR I love you ... in a way, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:36, archived)
Hmmm I guess so XS
see, terrible taste in women :D
(I helped save b3ta! Donkey Gums @mattcomedy, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:37, archived)
Meh
I reckon that everyone thinks they are a weirdo.
(I helped save b3ta! Lord Gnome, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:38, archived)
i'm not.
i'm an easy-going conformist sort of chap.
(I helped save b3ta! sleepybinky, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:43, archived)
Dogs that scream make me laugh so much that often get the urge to scream back

(I helped save b3ta! Donkey Gums @mattcomedy, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:43, archived)
So do it!

(I helped save b3ta! Lord Gnome, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:45, archived)
I may have these thoughts but I've also got to maintain my air of rockstar coolness at all times
What if a GIRL saw?!?!?
(I helped save b3ta! Donkey Gums @mattcomedy, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:48, archived)
She would jump your bones.

(I helped save b3ta! Lord Gnome, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:51, archived)
+ which you've buried in the back garden

(I helped save b3ta! RR I love you ... in a way, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:54, archived)
*screams*

(I helped save b3ta! Donkey Gums @mattcomedy, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:57, archived)
*screams back*

(I helped save b3ta! RR I love you ... in a way, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 15:08, archived)
I don't
I'm the most normal person I know.
(I helped save b3ta! RR I love you ... in a way, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:46, archived)
NO I AM.
*fights you for it*
(I helped save b3ta! sleepybinky, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:47, archived)
We should so make out.

(I helped save b3ta! RR I love you ... in a way, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:51, archived)
OK SURE
*snogs heartily*
(I helped save b3ta! sleepybinky, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:54, archived)
so now your trying with guys
omg gay
(El Guiri the only b3tan who is not fat, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:42, archived)
Why hellooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

(I helped save b3ta! Donkey Gums @mattcomedy, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:46, archived)
*runs*

(El Guiri the only b3tan who is not fat, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:50, archived)
*chases*
moom moom moom smoooooshy kisses!
(I helped save b3ta! Donkey Gums @mattcomedy, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:51, archived)
This doesn't apply here.
People that don't like /talk stay here and moan about how shit it is.
(I helped save b3ta! Dave Trouser ; the people's choice - 75% agree, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:18, archived)
i was really hoping that was going to segue into the bel air rap

(I helped save b3ta! well, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:19, archived)
umm... FOBT4C?

(I helped save b3ta! Flapjack I spay a little mare for you, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:19, archived)
I'm an old softie really, a romantic.
I make sure she has enough goods for a jug fuck.
(I helped save b3ta! Harold Bishop's Love Child some sort of terrifying sex magician., Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:20, archived)
Hello, thanks for your random burn.
Listen to it yesterday whilst in the car. Liked it Frank black tune is well good. Had his first album years ago and lost it. I've download it now.
(I helped save b3ta! BindiBaji, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:40, archived)
It's hard to imagine what the alternative is in the case of one person vs. a large company such as Nestle.
You can make suggestions, but they're highly unlikely to take them on board. They're not going to change their way of doing things because of one person.
(I helped save b3ta! my other username is a porsche , posting shit pictures so you don't have to, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:20, archived)
Not within the current social structure
but there are thousands of alternatives to the society we currently live in. I don't assume that this is the best, or only workable one, even if it's pretty good on a lot of measures.
(I helped save b3ta! Flapjack I spay a little mare for you, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:23, archived)
I'm struggling to see how it could work very differently unless large companies didn't exist.
Because as soon as the company has a large number of customers all with conflicting interests, it'd be impossible or at least uneconomical for them to adapt their services for every customer.
(I helped save b3ta! my other username is a porsche , posting shit pictures so you don't have to, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:25, archived)
You're still thinking in the existing framework
An option could be to have "customer's unions", or run all companies as co-operatives. As examples.
(I helped save b3ta! Flapjack I spay a little mare for you, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:30, archived)
It's true that one person can do anything, but governments can
It might not be our government that does anything, but in the case of Nestle, the African governments can put a ban on their products.
(I helped save b3ta! SuperMatt, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:26, archived)
Yes, that's true.
I was seeing this as more of a 'can one person make a large company do what they want' thing, rather than a 'can we stop large companies from doing evil things' though.
More about adapting to personal choice than not being cunts. Maybe I've misinterpreted.
(I helped save b3ta! my other username is a porsche , posting shit pictures so you don't have to, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:28, archived)
A lot of change can come through government
We probably won't see our dependence of fossil fuels end during our life time, but government, with a strong focus, will make the change we all want.
(I helped save b3ta! SuperMatt, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:32, archived)
I'd go a damn sight further than this.
The idea that governments are not strong enough to affect change is a downright lie perpetuated by the right in order to dismiss other political strategies without debating them.
(I helped save b3ta! Dr Preference AjcuiVd289, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:49, archived)
That's a valid point,
but someone like nestle can't discuss all their buisness decisions with all their customers.

edit: In terms of your second point, I don't look for anything in particular, I'm very picky but not for anything specific, If I like them I like them but not for their component parts.
(PsychoChomp, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:20, archived)
A great set of dorsal spines and large egg baring cavity.

(I helped save b3ta! Undulating Tentacles of Love getting fun down to acceptable levels, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:20, archived)
and a look in the compound eyes that says "I'll consume you after copulation".

(I helped save b3ta! Undulating Tentacles of Love getting fun down to acceptable levels, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:22, archived)
Does it not usually end up with the companies with more money just saying "like it or lump it"?
or going into such lengthy and expensive "discussions" that the smaller party gives up or loses through lack of funds.

Good shoulders for pulling the plough, bright eyes and a glossy coat. And nice arms. I'm a sucker for manly arms/hands.
(I helped save b3ta! spangolin - the odds are good but the goods are odd, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:21, archived)
ARMS YES *FIVES*

(I helped save b3ta! sleepybinky, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:23, archived)
for the mens, obviously
a girl with manly arms might not be so good.
*leaping fives anyway*
(I helped save b3ta! spangolin - the odds are good but the goods are odd, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:25, archived)
Pulling the plough?
*thumbs pages*
Ah, here we are. Gosh. That does look like fun.
(rnuk http://flickr.com/rnuk, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:24, archived)
WHAT IS IT?

(I helped save b3ta! sleepybinky, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:25, archived)
It's too rude for binkies.

(rnuk http://flickr.com/rnuk, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:27, archived)
Sexy wheelbarrow race at a guess.

(I helped save b3ta! Undulating Tentacles of Love getting fun down to acceptable levels, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:27, archived)
don't be silly
not the sex, I have an overgrown garden.

No wait.
(I helped save b3ta! spangolin - the odds are good but the goods are odd, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:26, archived)
hahahahahahahhaha AHAHAHAHHA mahahaha
lols.
(I helped save b3ta! sleepybinky, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:27, archived)
*gets out the secateurs*

(I helped save b3ta! spangolin - the odds are good but the goods are odd, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:28, archived)
I'll GET THE MUFF CHIPPER!

(I helped save b3ta! Donkey Gums @mattcomedy, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:28, archived)
I read the post
But I don't fully understand the implications, so I choose to not answer that question.

Instead I'll repost this as I think it should be more widely distributed.

Oh- big tits in answer to question 2.
(I helped save b3ta! Lord Gnome, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:21, archived)
A cavernous womb in which to sow and cultivate my devestatingly potent seed.

(rnuk http://flickr.com/rnuk, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:22, archived)
Also, I've just signed up for twitter.
Five minutes in and I've deemed it utterly pointless.
(rnuk http://flickr.com/rnuk, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:23, archived)
you should follow me
your online life would be complete and fulfilling, then.

www.twitter.com/mothdust
(I helped save b3ta! spangolin - the odds are good but the goods are odd, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:27, archived)
No offence, you loveable imp, but that's really erm...dull.
Now, if I were able to be notified of every fall of wicket in a cricket match, or tomorrow's weather, or engineering works on the tube, or the day's headlines, that would be good.
(rnuk http://flickr.com/rnuk, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:33, archived)
but that's USEFUL.

(I helped save b3ta! spangolin - the odds are good but the goods are odd, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:37, archived)
i'm totally on there too, with my bunny ears.
/inkybinkybee
(I helped save b3ta! sleepybinky, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:28, archived)
about 8 large vodkas
an low self esteem
(I helped save b3ta! mongychops, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:24, archived)
haha

(I helped save b3ta! RR I love you ... in a way, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:25, archived)
Dark eyes/hair/skin
I'm a sucker for the mediterranean look.
(I helped save b3ta! RR I love you ... in a way, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:24, archived)
i like pale skin with dark hair and blue eyes.

(I helped save b3ta! sleepybinky, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:25, archived)
fair can be damn sexy though.

(I helped save b3ta! sleepybinky, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:26, archived)
I have none of those things.
Maybe pale skin.
(I helped save b3ta! RR I love you ... in a way, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:34, archived)
yeah but you're just hot.

(I helped save b3ta! sleepybinky, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:36, archived)
That's why I'm eating an ice-pop.
Cola flavoured.
(I helped save b3ta! RR I love you ... in a way, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:42, archived)
*hugs you tight*
*steals your freezepop*
(I helped save b3ta! sleepybinky, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:44, archived)
*Hugs back*
*gets too hot*
*wants an ice-pop*
*cries*
(I helped save b3ta! RR I love you ... in a way, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:53, archived)
Estoy en accuerdo.

(rnuk http://flickr.com/rnuk, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:25, archived)
Just say Africans you racist!
'mediterranean look' jeeeez
(I helped save b3ta! Donkey Gums @mattcomedy, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:26, archived)
Spanish, Itlaian, African, it's all good
As long as they have nice tits.
(I helped save b3ta! RR I love you ... in a way, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:38, archived)
^this, plus big tits

(I helped save b3ta! broadsword, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:59, archived)
Flapjack, I like you. I really do.
So I don't want you to take this personally;

You are completely and utterly incorrect, and your argument is illogical.

There are many other options open to people to deal with organisations, ideas, communities, etc. that they disagree with. You have asserted that the "take it or leave it" model is the only strategy available, and you have provided precisely no evidence to back this up.
(I helped save b3ta! Dr Preference AjcuiVd289, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:27, archived)
any other ways than your "campaign of violence against a innocent populace" model?

(I helped save b3ta! Undulating Tentacles of Love getting fun down to acceptable levels, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:29, archived)
Peaceful protest is one for starters.

(I helped save b3ta! Lord Gnome, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:31, archived)
Don't knock it, that strategy has been used successfully by your country in mine for eight hundred years now.

(I helped save b3ta! Dr Preference AjcuiVd289, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:32, archived)
I don't mean to say it's the only one
but it's certainly a strong contender for most dominant, and is actively pushed as a solution that increases freedom (especially by the economic right).

To the extent that "freedom of choice equates to freedom" becomes almost axiomatic. There are other options, and they shouldn't be overlooked.

Which bit is illogical? I can see the disagreement with premises clearly enough.

( www.b3ta.com/talk/4454608 )
(I helped save b3ta! Flapjack I spay a little mare for you, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:34, archived)
Actually
The first thing I said was "in a free market society", which covers the feeble witterings of my previous post.
(I helped save b3ta! Flapjack I spay a little mare for you, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:40, archived)
The assertion that the free market offers only the take it or leave it approach is a false dichotomy, you are begging the question.
And while you may not have meant that that was an absolute, you stated it as such.
I'd agree with you that the right have been successful in recent years at narrowing the concept of freedom alarmingly, but combating this requires rigorous logical and theoretical precision.
Despite the terminology used in the previous statement, I am not, and have never been, a Marxist.
(I helped save b3ta! Dr Preference AjcuiVd289, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:41, archived)
It's a base assumption of the free market system, like homo economicus, isn't it?
Maybe not even an assumption, more a benefit. I'm not being very rigorous.

I'm also taking bets for who will first reply with "hehehe homo".
(I helped save b3ta! Flapjack I spay a little mare for you, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:46, archived)
It is, but the assumption is closely linked to the equally false assumption that the market will continually evolve to meet the needs of the consumer.
So closely linked that to analyse either proposition individually would be disingenuous.
(I helped save b3ta! Dr Preference AjcuiVd289, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:54, archived)
That the whole edifice is based on false assumptions
is not something I'd deny.
(I helped save b3ta! Flapjack I spay a little mare for you, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:57, archived)
breath

(I helped save b3ta! The Great Architect is still waiting for his account to be deleted on, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:28, archived)
Mainly nice eyes.
I'm a fan of facial hair also, though stubble more than beards or moustaches.
(I helped save b3ta! Blue Star was working part time at the 5 and Dime, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:29, archived)
My beard is way better than any stubble.

(I helped save b3ta! Dr Preference AjcuiVd289, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:31, archived)
I shaved my beard off recently but left the moustache.
Mainly to see what it looked like. I look like Josef Stalin.
(I helped save b3ta! Lord Gnome, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:34, archived)
I've been reading Montefiorre's book on Young Stalin.
It turns out the chap was also a pirate.
Top fellow.
(I helped save b3ta! Dr Preference AjcuiVd289, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:38, archived)
I read that.
It actually made me like the guy. He was quite the dashing blade as a young revolutionary.
(I helped save b3ta! Lord Gnome, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:40, archived)
He got quite surreal as he aged, though.
He gave up after wiping out half of the Ukrainians saying he was tired of the whole project.
I've never been able to understand the logic of that.
(I helped save b3ta! Dr Preference AjcuiVd289, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:44, archived)
There's a great quote in that book
When he asks about whatever happened to the Russian Church.
(I helped save b3ta! Lord Gnome, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:47, archived)
Try shaving your beard down the middle next time and having mutton chops.
You'll never have to buy a pint in a pub again, people love 'em.
(I helped save b3ta! Harold Bishop's Love Child some sort of terrifying sex magician., Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:41, archived)
Done that - last year when I still had long hair.
I looked like a ginger James Hetfield.
(I helped save b3ta! Lord Gnome, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:43, archived)
Class.
I did mine for a bet and kept them for a few weeks. The MC from Pendulum told me they looked awesome. Didn't buy me a pint though, the cunt.
(I helped save b3ta! Harold Bishop's Love Child some sort of terrifying sex magician., Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:44, archived)
Mutton chops are awesome.

(I helped save b3ta! Blue Star was working part time at the 5 and Dime, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:46, archived)
GET IN!

(I helped save b3ta! Harold Bishop's Love Child some sort of terrifying sex magician., Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:47, archived)
aww yeah beardy horn.

(I helped save b3ta! sleepybinky, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:37, archived)
Yeah, I'd go with that.

(I helped save b3ta! Moon Girl Technologies horrendous beanbag, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:31, archived)
also
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Paradox_of_Choice:_Why_More_Is_Less
(I helped save b3ta! Moon Girl Technologies horrendous beanbag, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:33, archived)
Haha
now there is someone who's tried to order an egg sandwich in the US.
(I helped save b3ta! Flapjack I spay a little mare for you, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:36, archived)
Physically they must have massive boobs.
Low self-esteem is a bonus.
(I helped save b3ta! mike woz ere 7442200 & 7696970 getter, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:38, archived)
I like to live by my own code, the problem is morality is instilled in us, but it is not formed by us it has been formed by others.
We've all been institutionalised, if someone goes against the institution then the masses see this as incorrect, and we ostracise them.

I like petite, big eyed, short hair or very long hair (black/brunette) with a sense of humour, a decent logical head on their shoulders. However this kind of person I will never attract because I am cynical and a bit of a cunt.

I'm not sure either of your questions are answered by either of my answers
(I helped save b3ta! GrandmaOfShoes, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:38, archived)
Maybe not, but
logical head on their shoulders. However this kind of person I will never attract because I am cynical and a bit of a

Morality is a social institution, I'd suggest.
(I helped save b3ta! Flapjack I spay a little mare for you, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:41, archived)
the issue is institutionalisation kind of destroys individualism, but creates order for progression to be made
Anarchism just causes destruction.
(I helped save b3ta! GrandmaOfShoes, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:47, archived)
Morality is ethics applied on a personal level.
The social institution isn't morality per se, but most people defer their own ethical choices to it because they can't or prefer not to think for themselves.
(I helped save b3ta! Moon Girl Technologies horrendous beanbag, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:47, archived)
Thinking for yourself
is only the logical working-out and prioritising of certain moral axioms, and those axioms are generally dependent on the society you're raised in, with a few that seem to be built-in to most humans.
(I helped save b3ta! Flapjack I spay a little mare for you, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:55, archived)
I don't think you work axioms out so much as you declare them,
and that the axioms define the thing you're talking about. The problem at large is that the term "morality" is not well-defined, if there is no absolute agreement on what constitutes its axioms. I think this is largely a result of a refusal to acknowledge that it ought to have axioms at all, such that most people have a pretty fuzzy concept of it as a whole, usually only relying on personal conscience and what would get them into trouble.
(I helped save b3ta! Moon Girl Technologies horrendous beanbag, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 15:00, archived)
Sorry, that's what I meant to say -
a working-out of the consequences.

Absolute agreement would require absolute moral facts, I think this is where it falls down.
(I helped save b3ta! Flapjack I spay a little mare for you, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 15:04, archived)
Absolute agreement on every little detail probably will never come about,
but at the moment, there isn't even agreement on what morality fundamentally means. People refuse to define it. By what set of universal principles can an act be judged by?
(I helped save b3ta! Moon Girl Technologies horrendous beanbag, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 15:08, archived)
I don't think it's necessarily a refusal
as an inability to derive a "should" from an "is". I personally think any universal morality will only come about due to the suppression of other moralities, not due to some inherent logical truth.
(I helped save b3ta! Flapjack I spay a little mare for you, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 15:21, archived)
I think that's why I consider it a "refusal" as such,
because there's a fear that by defining morality in an unambiguous way would oppress some group of people or other, and be akin to tyranny.
(I helped save b3ta! Moon Girl Technologies horrendous beanbag, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 15:24, archived)
Ah, I see
I'm not afraid to state my beliefs and fight for them, even though I know that they have no universal grounding. Neither do any others which are being fought for, and if I didn't hold any "shoulds" without supreme objective guidance, I'd have no morality whatsoever.

I justify this pragmatically by saying that my "shoulds" try not to impose themselves beyond that of avoiding harm to others, and don't require belief in the Unknowable Infinite or deities. Although they do require assent to propositions that suffering and stress are less desirable than pleasure and flourishing, say.

What's the alternative?
(I helped save b3ta! Flapjack I spay a little mare for you, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 15:33, archived)
"should" is only relative to goals.
If I want to achieve X, I "should" do Y.

But what "should" I want to achieve?

If there is a purpose to the Universe, it would provide the answer to that. I should want to achieve what the Universe is for. And what I think it is for is understanding, because that's exactly what it's been leading up to this last 13.8 billion years.
(I helped save b3ta! Moon Girl Technologies horrendous beanbag, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 15:39, archived)
But a) there's no evidence for the "if"
and b) there's no evidence for the last bit. Even if there's a purpose, we could be oblivious of or unreachable to any evidence. Plus there's the difficulty of defining what "understanding" is.

On balance, the hypothesis that teleology is an artifact of having brains that are fine-tuned for social interaction strikes me as the more likely, so far. But I remain open to other hypotheses, pending evidence.
(I helped save b3ta! Flapjack I spay a little mare for you, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 15:57, archived)
Bare with me,
I'm on the forefront of my own understanding here.
a) any reasons for the "if" must transcend evidence as such,
b) if there is a purpose, something in the Universe has to come aware of it at some point, otherwise it would go permanently unfulfilled, which would be EPIC FAIL.

My reasoning for this is that understanding, or attempting to, seems to be the primary activity of the rational mind, whether the brain as a whole is tuned for social interaction or not. Indeed, the most logical people tend to be quite poor at the social side of things. Not that I don't think the social side is important. Of course, we're also fine-tuned to exist in the physical world as well.

I'm basically looking at what the Universe has done so far and assumed it's leading up to something. What it's produced so far, unless our entire planet is some kind of massive red herring, is surely indicative of what it was set up to do. "Form and function," as my school biology teacher used to say.

I can't conceive of any meaningful kind of morality without some purpose to the Universe, so it's certainly of practical value to me that there be one.
(I helped save b3ta! Moon Girl Technologies horrendous beanbag, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 16:07, archived)
Hmm
a) if there is a purpose, wouldn't it be advantageous (and really very little effort) for that purpose to be clearly indicated to rational minds?
b) Not necessarily, it could be for the purpose of some extra-universal being. A car engine has a purpose and no internal knowledge of its purpose.
c) That's an immense assumption, no?
d) You don't live to a morality now?
(I helped save b3ta! Flapjack I spay a little mare for you, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 16:33, archived)
Well, the idea of a general agreement on morality is kind of the basis of law.
If we don't all (or most of us) agree that something is wrong, then as a society we shouldn't punish it. If everyone has different morals, then should the law be altered for different people?
And personally, I'd say morality is formed by us, and continues to be changed by all of us. It's not fixed.
(I helped save b3ta! my other username is a porsche , posting shit pictures so you don't have to, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:51, archived)
the law is a moral agent in itself

(I helped save b3ta! Moon Girl Technologies horrendous beanbag, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:53, archived)
I read some Nietszche recently
he was saying something along the lines of 'pride will always overcome memory' basically suggesting that if we do something that people consider 'evil' whilst our memory initially remembers the events as they were, i.e. you performing the 'evil' event, but these memories will be overwritten with your own pride.
(I helped save b3ta! GrandmaOfShoes, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:57, archived)
I don't know if that's philosophy or psychology.
Sounds more like psychology to me, though. People do get defensive, and confabulate.
(I helped save b3ta! Moon Girl Technologies horrendous beanbag, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 15:02, archived)
It was philosophy
it's been confirmed by psychology. I forget what it's called, I think it was a Kahneman and Tversky bias.
(I helped save b3ta! Flapjack I spay a little mare for you, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 15:07, archived)
I'd see it as a structure consisting of what the majority think of as being immoral, roughly.
A common agreement on what is immoral and what punishment should result from it.
If the majority change their ideas of what is moral then the law will, or at least should, adapt to that.
(I helped save b3ta! my other username is a porsche , posting shit pictures so you don't have to, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 15:00, archived)
ah ahh "should".
the law "should" do this or that because it is a moral agent. but I don't think it necessarily should be swayed by the will of the mob, fortunately it isn't otherwise homosexuality would still be illegal for instance...

The law, as a moral agent, has the moral duty to do what IS right, irrespective of what the people affected by it think is right, and even, confusingly, irrespective of what the moral agent itself thinks is right. This is why all moral agents have a primary duty to think about what they're doing and to formulate good reason for their moral beliefs before their moral duty to do what they think is right can become manifest. That is, in order to do right, one must try one's best to align what one thinks to what actually is.
(I helped save b3ta! Moon Girl Technologies horrendous beanbag, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 15:05, archived)
And how do you define what actually is right, rather than what the majority think is right?
I'm not necessarily disagreeing. I have heard of polls claiming that the majority of people want to reintroduce the death penalty.
(I helped save b3ta! my other username is a porsche , posting shit pictures so you don't have to, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 15:08, archived)
well this is the problem outlined above,
nobody seems to have a definition of it. Everybody seems to have a vague woolly sense of what it is in everyday practice, but nobody, when asked, can actually say what it is.
(I helped save b3ta! Moon Girl Technologies horrendous beanbag, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 15:12, archived)
Well, down there I said 'will doing this harm anyone else?'
But I suppose that's no help when dealing with punishment. Personally I'd like to see punishment much more about rehabilitation than just revenge.
(I helped save b3ta! my other username is a porsche , posting shit pictures so you don't have to, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 15:17, archived)
oh yes,
me too, I see no moral value in punishment at all unless it's intended to change someone for the better. Otherwise it's just self-satisfaction.
(I helped save b3ta! Moon Girl Technologies horrendous beanbag, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 15:30, archived)
It's how it started and how it's viewed
But in a multicultural society it's a political agreement, rather than a moral agreement: you find common ground to make life livable and efficient, because life would be less pleasant without them, and not because you share a belief in the underlying moral reasons.
(I helped save b3ta! Flapjack I spay a little mare for you, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 15:02, archived)
Yeah, I have problems with seeing what's immoral with personal drug use, for example.
Apart from the obvious funding of organised crime, which is a result of the illegality rather than the drug itself.
(I helped save b3ta! my other username is a porsche , posting shit pictures so you don't have to, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 15:05, archived)
have you read this week's Bad Science?
www.badscience.net/2009/06/this-is-my-column-this-is-my-column-on-drugs-any-questions/
(I helped save b3ta! Flapjack I spay a little mare for you, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 15:09, archived)
my own understanding of morality centres around duties rather than rights as the fundamental objects.
I don't believe anybody has a right to self destruction, because such interferes with the duty to do good in the world. Rights are only an artifact of everyone performing their duties.
(I helped save b3ta! Moon Girl Technologies horrendous beanbag, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 15:10, archived)
Illegal drugs don't necessarily lead to self destruction,
any more than alcohol, tobacco, gambling etc do. Personally I see morality more in terms of 'will doing this harm anyone else?'
I suppose you could construct an argument about self-destruction harming those around you, but I think self-destruction is something it's impossible to legislate against.
(I helped save b3ta! my other username is a porsche , posting shit pictures so you don't have to, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 15:14, archived)
that's a common view of morality especially amongst young people,
I suppose it's a step up from the old-style "thou shalt not" absolutism, but it can very easily get all tangled up, especially if negligence can be considered a moral wrong. It might be impossible, or at least meaningless, to legislate against self-destruction, but it can still be wrong without the law.

I think in general, anything that focuses one's attention inwardly on the sensations, on indulgence and physical pleasures, has a tendency to make a person a worse, and a less competent moral agent, because your duty is to others, not to yourself and your senses.
(I helped save b3ta! Moon Girl Technologies horrendous beanbag, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 15:22, archived)
Unless self-destruction is the optimum way to increase good in the world
suicide bombers, kamikaze pilots, etc.
(I helped save b3ta! Flapjack I spay a little mare for you, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 15:19, archived)
oh yeah,
in some situations self-destruction might be a person's duty. But it's never a right. Rights are peculiar things, destructive in themselves to my mind, even as concepts. It encourages people to put themselves first, focus on the ego, "I have the right to this and that". Everybody having the right to everything, and nobody having the duty to provide it, will never get anywhere. It's ethical gridlock.

Whereas rights emerge naturally out of individuals' moral duties to each other. "I have a duty to feed the poor," and so, the poor effectively have the right to be fed.

Your duty is to make the world better, not simply avoid making it worse.
(I helped save b3ta! Moon Girl Technologies horrendous beanbag, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 15:29, archived)
I agree with this
rights are OK when used negatively to define a state's duties to its citizens, but not as a positive "thing" that people possess independently in and of themselves.
(I helped save b3ta! Flapjack I spay a little mare for you, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 15:37, archived)
I like big sexy brains
and sexy standing with hands on hips types who tut at you disapprovingly, and women who pick fights with other women for no other reason than it's funny or because they "just don't like 'em", and gals who threaten to stab you in the eye with a fork if you so much as look at the prettier younger sister whilst meeting the folks.
(I helped save b3ta! Imhotep is Invisible - Consider this a divorce, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:39, archived)
you like to live dangerously

(I helped save b3ta! Moon Girl Technologies horrendous beanbag, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:40, archived)
And people who have their lives mapped out all nicely terrify me

(I helped save b3ta! Imhotep is Invisible - Consider this a divorce, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:42, archived)
I'd say my general feeling towards such folks is a mixture of bafflement and boredom.
My parents have been going on at me about my pension since I was 5.
(I helped save b3ta! Moon Girl Technologies horrendous beanbag, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:44, archived)
thick thighs, beard, talks slow

(I helped save b3ta! Lisette von Falcon, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:40, archived)
Unshaven Down's then

(I helped save b3ta! Donkey Gums @mattcomedy, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:41, archived)
which are you? pink, cock or chocolate?

(I helped save b3ta! Lisette von Falcon, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:45, archived)
Cocklate

(I helped save b3ta! Donkey Gums @mattcomedy, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:50, archived)
Umm... well...



... hello.
(I helped save b3ta! Flapjack I spay a little mare for you, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:42, archived)
oh
hellooooooooo
(I helped save b3ta! Lisette von Falcon, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:51, archived)
Mainly a good sense of humour, I'm a slut for funny.
Physically, beards, long hair and tallness don't go amiss.

For women it's long hair again, pretty eyes and lots of curves. Also short. My height or below.
(I helped save b3ta! Captain Wow currently being a cunt in Infamous, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:42, archived)
2/3 isn't bad, says binky.
You may marry me.
(I helped save b3ta! Flapjack I spay a little mare for you, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:48, archived)
Which 2, though?

(I helped save b3ta! Captain Wow currently being a cunt in Infamous, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:52, archived)
Tall and beardy
he said, offering her a polite escape clause.
(I helped save b3ta! Flapjack I spay a little mare for you, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:58, archived)
Well that's good then.
Thing is, Flaps, some dopey sod's gone and asked me to marry him. No, I have no idea.
(I helped save b3ta! Captain Wow currently being a cunt in Infamous, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 15:00, archived)
I'm happy to act as a friendly placeholder
/ac
(I helped save b3ta! Flapjack I spay a little mare for you, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 15:16, archived)
I have the long hair,
maybe we can come to some kind of agreement
(I helped save b3ta! my other username is a porsche , posting shit pictures so you don't have to, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 15:01, archived)
Short with lots of curves???

(I helped save b3ta! Donkey Gums @mattcomedy, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:52, archived)
What do YOU look for in a potential mate, Flappers?

(I helped save b3ta! Blue Star was working part time at the 5 and Dime, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:50, archived)
Physically
Pretty eyes, a pretty smile, nice curves. In that order. Dimples help A LOT.
(I helped save b3ta! Flapjack I spay a little mare for you, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:52, archived)
I'd go with that- eyes count for a lot.
Never been too bothered about dimples- although it seems my previous girlfriends liked them.
(I helped save b3ta! Lord Gnome, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:56, archived)
Yes
And I don't. I'm just too damned ugly!
(I helped save b3ta! Maximinimus you stick around I'll make it worth your while, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:53, archived)
I do agree. But I don't think that it could be another way really.
I like all sorts of different things. Mainly a massive wilkins though.
(I helped save b3ta! LimeyTreat Bitch. Lover. Child. Mother. Sinner. Saint., Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:53, archived)
Why not? It has been and almost certainly will be.

(I helped save b3ta! Flapjack I spay a little mare for you, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:59, archived)
a big telly

(I helped save b3ta! Lightguy hail satan, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:55, archived)

te wi
(I helped save b3ta! Donkey Gums @mattcomedy, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 14:59, archived)
>:(

(I helped save b3ta! Lightguy hail satan, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 15:03, archived)
heheheheheheheh you like big willies :D

(I helped save b3ta! Donkey Gums @mattcomedy, Tue 16 Jun 2009, 15:07, archived)