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This is a link post Near-death experience study
What is the fucking point of this study? Near-death experiences are just a byproduct of the brain experiencing near-death trauma. They are hallucinations. Any other explanation requires a leap of faith, rendering it impossible to subject to the rigours of science.

Why continue to give credence to theories which have absolutely no rational grounding? This is a total waste of time and money imho. There must be better uses for the funds...
 (I helped save b3ta! chart cat has an itch, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 11:07, , Reply)
This is a normal post Why is the theory that they are a by-product of near-death trauma an acceptable one?
It is a theory which cannot be subject to the rigours of scientific testing.

Why can you not accept that 'we do not know' leaves any possible theory as worthy of testing and research?

Theoretical science is all about guesswork at first, which, when tested, teaches us things.

There are many, many theories which, at the time they were presented, were impossible to test, which we now know to be correct (theory of relativity before sufficiently accurate time-pieces/fast enough jets) and there are many more which we cannot yet test (Hawkins radiation) yet we accept.

We do not understand everything and to write something off because it does not adhere to the tiny fraction of what we know is just stupid.

Many people claim to have risen up out of their bodies. Even if this only proves that it is the trauma induced hallucination which I assume it is bound to, for the cost of a few pictures and a questionnaire, what the fuck is your problem with it?

Or is it just an atheist fundamentalist thing? Stooping to fundy levels does nothing to help get rid of fundy lunatics you know.
 (I helped save b3ta! LordManley twitter.com/LordManley, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 11:22, , Reply)
This is a normal post I agree with Manley
except with less swearing
 (I helped save b3ta! The Coast Of Yemen, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 11:26, , Reply)
This is a normal post but swearing helps enforce facts

(I helped save b3ta! Firkinfedup last shat on your wife's tits at, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 13:27, , Reply)
This is a normal post i agree
if we dont know what it is its fucking magic it must be.
 (zaitsevrogue9, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 11:27, , Reply)
This is a normal post If we don't know what it is then we try and find out what it is,
not just say 'I cannot measure that, therefore it does not exist'.

If you ask a 14th Century scholar about electrons then they won't be able to measure it, but they didn't suddenly start existing in 1808 (or did they?)
 (I helped save b3ta! LordManley twitter.com/LordManley, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 11:30, , Reply)
This is a normal post 1803 to be precise.
A little known fact for you, before 1803 we just had tiny whirring bottles of lemonade.
 (I helped save b3ta! vix0r was not Matthew on, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 11:33, , Reply)
This is a normal post R Whites?

(I helped save b3ta! LordManley twitter.com/LordManley, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 11:38, , Reply)
This is a normal post no sorry im hangover i didnt read enough
it just goes back to my philosophy days when people used the fact that we didnt understand how nerology could exsplain phenomonolgy as evidnce for duelism. which enoyed me becuase duilsm dosnt solve the problems that materlism poses becauses it just places those problems in a magical realm we cant exspriance and so we could never understand. to me that dosnt provide a better exspalntion to marerlism
 (zaitsevrogue9, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 11:39, , Reply)
This is a normal post No, it just gives it a label.
At various stages in our development we do need to simply say that x is 'beyond our comprehension' and muddle along with what we do know and some assumptions or guesses.

It is not perfect, but it is all we have.
 (I helped save b3ta! LordManley twitter.com/LordManley, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 11:50, , Reply)
This is a normal post it dosnt just give it a label
dualism is not just a label for not understanding materialism its a belief that the mind is a separate entity to the body, and my point is that its a belief that doesn’t solve any of the problems of materialism. take the example of the neurologist who has never seen red. even though she has a complete understanding of the neurology of seeing red, when she actually sees red for the first time she will (well it seems intuitive that she will any way) be experiencing something new. there’s a gap between the workings of our neuron’s and our experience of life. but how does dualism solve this problem. it simply states that the workings of our minds are outside the realm of materialism so that we will never be in a position that the neurologist is in because we will not be able to study the non physical world. but this doesn’t solve the problem of how our experiences arise
 (zaitsevrogue9, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 11:58, , Reply)
This is a normal post But does the fact that it does not yet explain anything make it invalid?
Why is it unacceptable to say that we just do not yet understand much.

I like not understanding, it leaves me scope to discover.
 (I helped save b3ta! LordManley twitter.com/LordManley, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 12:08, , Reply)
This is a normal post your not understanding what im saying
its not invalid because it cant be proved, its invalid because it doesn’t solve any of the problems of a much simpler explanation materialism. why hypothesize a non physical realm if it doesn’t get u any where in explaining the origin of phenomenal experiences. its a bit like saying that because we dont know how a bumble bee flies it must be because it has tiny jet packs on its arse.
 (zaitsevrogue9, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 12:17, , Reply)
This is a normal post I have never seen such wise words from someone so illiterate.
Now THAT'S dualism.
 (I helped save b3ta! gronkpan https://twitter.com/VomitingLarry, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 12:25, , Reply)
This is a normal post I think that maybe I am not understanding what you are saying.

(I helped save b3ta! LordManley twitter.com/LordManley, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 12:29, , Reply)
This is a normal post i treid to sort the spelling out
if that was the problem.
 (zaitsevrogue9, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 12:39, , Reply)
This is a normal post i reckon the study of the genome
our current understanding is actually piss poor and quite medieval. ie: if we zap this particular gene it seems to have this effect on the phenotype, so we can deduce some of it functions, but we have absolutely no idea on the mechanism it is encoded and translated, and how it interacts with other genes
does that mean we shouldnt do further study? I say: possibly. how much funding are we talking about. Will i get my own parking space?
 (I helped save b3ta! cumquat may will not be commenting further on the allegations, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 12:00, , Reply)
This is a normal post Quite simply
because it is a load of bollocks.

If near-death experiences have any basis in anything other than brain trauma, it would mean that the nebulous concept of the 'soul' really does exist. That would render scientific understanding as we know it completely obsolete and wrong, so that should tell you immediately that it's not worth pursuing. Science has come far enough to know approximately what is worth researching and what isn't. It's no longer about picking your favourite fantasy and exploring it just for the sake of it.

I'm guessing from your aggressive and defensive response that you're a person of faith, and as such, you probably have no rational basis for your stance that it's worth researching because "we do not know".

Science is best served by research in areas likely to bear fruit.

This is not one of them.
 (I helped save b3ta! chart cat has an itch, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 11:31, , Reply)
This is a normal post "it would mean that the nebulous concept of the 'soul' really does exist. That would render scientific understanding as we know it completely obsolete and wrong"
But that is what science is all about! The best outcome of an experiment is one that disproves conventional wisdom.

I should point out that I am most definitely not a person of faith.
 (I helped save b3ta! The Coast Of Yemen, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 11:34, , Reply)
This is a normal post the best outcome of an experiment is a sex-bot capable of doing your bidding indistinguishable from human. everyone knows this

(I helped save b3ta! cumquat may will not be commenting further on the allegations, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 11:42, , Reply)
This is a normal post Richard Feynman said this about scientific research
If science finds something out to be true, whether you like it or not, it's true.
 (I helped save b3ta! Brandy_Bumwinkle, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 11:48, , Reply)
This is a normal post yep but how do you define 'truth'
isn't 'scientific probability' just another word for 'faith'

the fact that the outcome of a so called 'objective' experiment provided the recorded result based on a certain factor is in itself still based on probability

i'm also of a mind to believe there is no such thing as pure 'objectivity'
 (The Goat www.cuttingthroughthematrix.com, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 12:13, , Reply)
This is a normal post But if it is not proven, then it is not true.
Just because results from one experiment suggest a truth, doesn't make them necessarily true!
 (I helped save b3ta! Redsushi! Whoop! Whoop! Yes, that one!, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 12:16, , Reply)
This is a normal post
then it's not true but 'might be probable '


it's the black and white aspect I have a problem with - a result of the rise of the scientific dictatorship from the 16th century onwards (which had its roots ion occultism and kabbalistic traditions itself - John Dee, Eramus Darwin etc)

isn't it true that at the quantum level the way an experiement is observed affects the outcome?
 (The Goat www.cuttingthroughthematrix.com, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 12:19, , Reply)
This is a normal post In theory yes.

(I helped save b3ta! Redsushi! Whoop! Whoop! Yes, that one!, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 12:22, , Reply)
This is a normal post yes
but that's because to observe something you have to have some kind of energy/matter bouncing off of it, which results in the tiny thing you're looking at changing direction/momentum. The uncertainly principle states you can either know the exact position or the exact momentum, but not both.
 (I helped save b3ta! Brandy_Bumwinkle, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 12:26, , Reply)
This is a normal post I don't want to enter into a philosophical debate about true/false here
Some things are more worthy of investigation that others. It doesn't need to be a binary choice, there are levels of importance and worth in between. This experiment is extremely unlikely (to the point of being a foregone conclusion) to produce anything other than a resounding negative result.

So, the question is... what's the point in doing it at all?
 (I helped save b3ta! chart cat has an itch, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 12:21, , Reply)
This is a normal post The pyramids are pretty cool
what was the point in building those?

Why should I even bother going outside tomorrow? I'll probably just wind up at work anyway.

We should all be stationary foodtubes. What's the point in being anything else?
 (I helped save b3ta! gronkpan https://twitter.com/VomitingLarry, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 12:33, , Reply)
This is a normal post becasue it would be boring
but dont think that this particluer exsperiment is trying to solve the problem of bordom so i dont see how your point is valid
 (zaitsevrogue9, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 12:44, , Reply)
This is a normal post Bit of a straw man that
don't you think?
 (I helped save b3ta! chart cat has an itch, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 12:45, , Reply)
This is a normal post i suppose
but his asking the question why should he go outside, becuase its similair to the question why do the exsperiment. but i can quite easly answer the going outside question, where as the point of doing the exsperment is under debate.
 (zaitsevrogue9, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 12:51, , Reply)
This is a normal post Bit of a reductio ad absurdum n'est pas?

(I helped save b3ta! Redsushi! Whoop! Whoop! Yes, that one!, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 13:04, , Reply)
This is a normal post i dont think so
i just that his question about why to go outside wasnt compoarble to why do the exsperment.
 (zaitsevrogue9, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 13:12, , Reply)
This is a normal post Hey Goat
I'm more of an amateur physicist than anything else so truth in these terms is physical constants, light waves, sound waves etc, all measurable down to as good as your equipment is. I don't see probability as faith, quantum mechanics is all based on probability, which is measurable and extremely accurate, but is only as good as the ruler being used. What happens beyond the measure of the ruler though, is anyones guess :)
 (I helped save b3ta! Brandy_Bumwinkle, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 12:23, , Reply)
This is a normal post 3 points:
1) it would not render scientific understanding void, nor even atheism. Science and religion are not mutually exclusive. Some religious doctrines and some science are mutually exclusive.

2) Faith is believing something which is not yet proven so, yes, I guess I am. So are you. You have faith that there is no soul, for example.

3) 'Because it is a load of bollocks' is the same argument as 'because God says so' and is, frankly, not a valid scientific argument.

My assumption is that you are an anti-religious fundy and, as such, I shall not try and talk to you rationally.
 (I helped save b3ta! LordManley twitter.com/LordManley, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 11:37, , Reply)
This is a normal post being anti relegion is just breing anti making shit up
the whole problem with relgion is that the relgious beilfs are carefully constructed so that they cant be proved or disproved. if you look at carl popper he wil say that you should hold a theory intill its disproven but if that theory can not be proved or disproved then its not a scintific theory. materlism is the best theory we have at the moment. is it worth testing that theory? of course, but faith and all that shit will always get in the way of science
 (zaitsevrogue9, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 11:44, , Reply)
This is a normal post But we are not in any position to test whether or not Hawkins Radiation is real at the moment, but that does not invalidate it.
Likewise, many of us accept that the level of data in favour of evolution is strong enough to accept. That alters the belief of many who previously might have followed doctrine which dictates ID.

In the future more elements of religious belief will be either confirmed or rejected (not everything in the Bible (for example) is wrong, it is just old knowledge).

The fundamental centre of religion 'is there a divine force' does not really enter into science at all, since it doesn't really matter a fig whether a black hole radiates because someone wants it to or just because it does. What matters is whether it radiates and how that affects the universe around it.

Science is being used as an anti religious tool lately and, frankly, I think it demeans science.
 (I helped save b3ta! LordManley twitter.com/LordManley, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 11:56, , Reply)
This is a normal post YES
Science and religion are not polar opposites.
 (I helped save b3ta! gronkpan https://twitter.com/VomitingLarry, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 12:38, , Reply)
This is a normal post ^
You must be joking
 (I helped save b3ta! chart cat has an itch, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 12:56, , Reply)
This is a normal post Why?
I myself am a Christian. However, I am also a fully signed up member of the earthicans.

My religion however, is my interpretation. You can not tarnish the whole religious world with the views of a minority of people. And at the same time, I will not tar the whole scientific community with your fundamentalism.
 (I helped save b3ta! Redsushi! Whoop! Whoop! Yes, that one!, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 12:59, , Reply)
This is a normal post It never ceases to amaze me
how upset religious types get when the facts are stated

It is simply a fact that religion and science are incompatible. Science seeks to disprove theories by experiment, religion seeks to perpetuate theories by faith.

You can label me as as a fundy if you wish; my stance is based in rationality alone after all. It would appear that yours is rather more emotive and subjective. Emotions and subjective opinion are fallible and provide no credible basis for scientific decision-making, unlike facts and probability.
 (I helped save b3ta! chart cat has an itch, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 13:11, , Reply)
This is a normal post OK,
well explain to me how I can believe in Evolution and such, but at the same time treat people in a way that I would like to be treated myself? Because that is what my religion is for me.

Surely that makes them compatible?

It is a silly person who confuses Doctrine with Religion.
 (I helped save b3ta! Redsushi! Whoop! Whoop! Yes, that one!, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 13:14, , Reply)
This is a normal post Can you explain
why an atheist like me also treats others as I would like to be treated myself. Some of us do it because it's the right thing to do, religion has nothing to do with it.
 (lolwhites, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 14:04, , Reply)
This is a normal post I totally agree,
being a nice person is not the sole right of religious people. However, I take guidance from my religion on how to live my life. Exactly the same way as I am sure that you, as me, also learnt from society how to be a thoroughly nice chap!
 (I helped save b3ta! Redsushi! Whoop! Whoop! Yes, that one!, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 14:11, , Reply)
This is a normal post Could you please explain your argument as it relates to quakerism?

(I helped save b3ta! gronkpan https://twitter.com/VomitingLarry, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 13:17, , Reply)
This is a normal post Could you offer some detail on why you think they are?

(I helped save b3ta! gronkpan https://twitter.com/VomitingLarry, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 13:12, , Reply)
This is a normal post I hate to pop in here,
but can you please start writing materialism. It is starting to grate.
 (I helped save b3ta! Redsushi! Whoop! Whoop! Yes, that one!, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 11:56, , Reply)
This is a normal post ^this

(I helped save b3ta! bennyhillslovechild, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 12:04, , Reply)
This is a normal post I am an an athesist but agree with you
though I'm not sure that your argument 2)
really stands up, the same point could be made about not believing that there are little blue aliens living in the core of the moon, I don't believe there are, but I have no proof that there are not, the same applies to my lack of belief in God, to me its best to use Occam's Razor: No more things should be assumed to exist than are absolutely necessary
 (negative armadillo There never was much hope..just a fool's hope., Thu 18 Sep 2008, 11:49, , Reply)
This is a normal post In a test to see whether there are people floating above their bodies,
the assumption that they might be is necessary.
 (I helped save b3ta! LordManley twitter.com/LordManley, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 11:52, , Reply)
This is a normal post I agree in this case there is a phenomena to be explained
so assumptions/ideas/theories should be put to the test, people do have weird experiences when near death, and there seems to be some concordance between the experiences that different people have, why is this the case? lets try and find out...
 (negative armadillo There never was much hope..just a fool's hope., Thu 18 Sep 2008, 11:59, , Reply)
This is a normal post with Derek Acorah

(I helped save b3ta! cumquat may will not be commenting further on the allegations, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 12:32, , Reply)
This is a normal post pfft!

(negative armadillo There never was much hope..just a fool's hope., Thu 18 Sep 2008, 12:48, , Reply)
This is a normal post I use this theory for my underpants
I have 8 pairs, which essentially is one too many for the week, but the eighth is there in case I shit myself, therefore God doesn't exist, QED.
 (I helped save b3ta! Brandy_Bumwinkle, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 11:54, , Reply)
This is a normal post well said

(I helped save b3ta! Firkinfedup last shat on your wife's tits at, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 11:55, , Reply)
This is a normal post It's an interesting study none the less.
What is it we see, why do we see these things? Is it because of unknown forces, is it us entering another dimension, is it our body doing odd things as it shuts down?

It wouldn't mean science would collapse if wrong, just that it would adjust to the new information accordingly.

I do, even though I'm an "athiest" (I hate titles, why does everyone need to be categorised?) myself, believe in the soul and many other things. It's interesting to exlore all these theories. They teach us things.
 (I helped save b3ta! vix0r was not Matthew on, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 11:38, , Reply)
This is a normal post in this case, the title is misplaced

(I helped save b3ta! cumquat may will not be commenting further on the allegations, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 11:44, , Reply)
This is a normal post No, apparently atheists are allowed to believe in a higher power.
I got called ignorant by a bunch of atheists here for suggesting otherwise.
 (I helped save b3ta! gronkpan https://twitter.com/VomitingLarry, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 12:41, , Reply)
This is a normal post I thought that was agnostic?
Anyway, I don't believe in a higher power. Just that there must be an energy to power our bodies and minds, and I don't believe the body could think like we do all by itself without some sort of conscious energy occupying it in a co-dependency.
 (I helped save b3ta! vix0r was not Matthew on, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 14:22, , Reply)
This is a normal post some groups have raised lots of funding to locate Noahs ark
i saw a tv show on them. they use highly dubious sat photo interpretation (my opinion as a geo. I'd look for a radiatiating corprolite pattern on the ground) and are working under the assumption that it must exist.
in science, often the only success that matters is raising funding.
 (I helped save b3ta! cumquat may will not be commenting further on the allegations, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 11:51, , Reply)
This is a normal post I think that flood stories exist in enough cultures to be relatively sure that there was a great flood.
I would suggest that Noah, in some form, did exist and did have an ark.

Of course, being made of wood, I see no point in looking for it, unless it was made of Yew, which it wasn't.
 (I helped save b3ta! LordManley twitter.com/LordManley, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 11:59, , Reply)
This is a normal post "that Noah, in some form, did exist and did have an ark."
thats a bit of a cop out. Are you looking for a canoe and overflowing creek. if so, whats the point? Thats like saying, im not saying we will find the actual source crater of the Deccan volcanics, but we should find with study that somewhere, something has come out of the ground
 (I helped save b3ta! cumquat may will not be commenting further on the allegations, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 12:05, , Reply)
This is a normal post Yes.
I am not disagreeing with you, but I do think that the assumption that Noah's Ark existed is not an unreasonable one.

If they truly believe they can find it then that is worth pursuing.

I do not believe that they can find it and think that they are daftys, but I have not seen their data.
 (I helped save b3ta! LordManley twitter.com/LordManley, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 12:11, , Reply)
This is a normal post Id say that "true belief" shouldn't be the basis of any endeavour
people are capable of believing a lot of dangerous nonsense, and the stonger they believe, the less likely they are of taking notice of any evidence that might suggest the contrary. not the best proponents of the scientific method
 (I helped save b3ta! cumquat may will not be commenting further on the allegations, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 12:18, , Reply)
This is a normal post Hmm.
I think that you believe things that you think are true.

Because you and I see unquestioning religious fervour as daft, we think that this is not valid, but I imagine that to some it seems ridiculous that we believe what we read from Hawkins as much as we think that believing what is written by Luke is worthy of further study.
 (I helped save b3ta! LordManley twitter.com/LordManley, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 12:32, , Reply)
This is a normal post luke is a 2000 year old book written by some one we know nothing of other than his own accounts of himself
hawkins is a scentist, he supplies evidnece for what he beilves. sceicne is rigrous, claims made by people are challnged. exspremnets have to be reapeatble. relgious belif is completly impossible do disprove. some one simply states that somthing is true. if you ask why they just say that they have faith. which is essential saying well i beilve it. you can ever test wether what they are saying is true. you cant do that in science. you dont read in new secintist "hawkins belives that the unverse is like this becuase he thinks it would be nice". know scintfic theories are basesd on reasnable exspalntions with logical reasoning. relgion is based on 2000 year old unsported accounts. any senible historan would questions the truth of many accounts of ceasars account of counquering britain. they wouldnt accpt it as objective fact like christians do with luke. there is clear and obvious diffecne between making stuff up an creating reasnable exspalntion of events
 (zaitsevrogue9, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 13:10, , Reply)
This is a normal post You forget the unarguable corroborative books also!
Matthew, Mark and John ;)
 (I helped save b3ta! Redsushi! Whoop! Whoop! Yes, that one!, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 13:18, , Reply)
This is a normal post i don't believe anything
i carry around in my mind a set of hypothesis that seem to be the best current explanation for whatever phenomen that i witness or interests me.

belief and faith are just lazy buckets people piss their brains into
 (I helped save b3ta! cumquat may will not be commenting further on the allegations, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 13:42, , Reply)
This is a normal post So by your logic
someone needs to completely understand every scientific theory they believe in, otherwise they're just putting their 'faith' in people they consider smarter than themselves?
 (I helped save b3ta! gronkpan https://twitter.com/VomitingLarry, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 13:49, , Reply)
This is a normal post *claps*
This is the tersest and most accurate critique of faith ever posted on b3ta.

"belief and faith are just lazy buckets people piss their brains into"
 (I helped save b3ta! chart cat has an itch, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 13:58, , Reply)
This is a normal post So why are you pissing your lazy brain into these buckets then?
You have displayed more blind faith than anyone else posting in this thread. Even the religious types.
 (I helped save b3ta! gronkpan https://twitter.com/VomitingLarry, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 14:14, , Reply)
This is a normal post You can look at the formation of the aral and caspian seas
at one point, they were habitated valleys, then due to erosion the mediterranean filled the fuckers up.

That would be a flood of large enough proportions.
 (I helped save b3ta! gronkpan https://twitter.com/VomitingLarry, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 12:43, , Reply)
This is a normal post I agree that this is the most likely explanation.
I think it is reasonable to assume that there was a chap called Noah who had a boat and set off to start a new life after the flood.

Whether it is worth looking for his boat is another matter, since it isn't realistically going to be found.
 (I helped save b3ta! LordManley twitter.com/LordManley, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 12:55, , Reply)
This is a normal post Well, yes.
but if someone wants to spend their life looking for it, I'm not going to hold them back. If someone wants to fund that person, good for them.

It's not my money and it's not my time so I say let them eat cake.

People spent a lot of time trying to turn lead into gold. Using their piss. Without those crazies, we wouldn't have modern chemistry.
 (I helped save b3ta! gronkpan https://twitter.com/VomitingLarry, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 13:05, , Reply)
This is a normal post WHY IS NOBODY PAYING ATTENTION TO THIS
MODERN CHEMISTRY WAS CREATED BY PEOPLE TRYING TO TURN LEAD INTO GOLD USING THEIR PISS.

"it's a load of bollocks"
 (I helped save b3ta! gronkpan https://twitter.com/VomitingLarry, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 13:20, , Reply)
This is a normal post Of course it is a load of bollocks!
If only they had used shit!

:D
 (I helped save b3ta! Redsushi! Whoop! Whoop! Yes, that one!, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 13:22, , Reply)
This is a normal post Strange reply
We have no real scientific understanding behind death. So having a theory on a 'soul' existing would hardly change any rules of science.

"Science is best served by research in areas likely to bear fruit."

ffs! That's the whole point in research, do you think the experiment at the LHC will definitely bear fruit then? Again, it's theory and speculation. I personally don't think it will show anything as I don't think the collision will happen at a fast enough speed, "near light speed" isn't "light speed". Yet they still spent billions on the project, and you are moaning about a relatively costless experiement into death...

Sort it out!
 (I helped save b3ta! Firkinfedup last shat on your wife's tits at, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 11:53, , Reply)
This is a normal post The LHC is worthwhile endeavour
A project that costs as much as the LHC has not being conjured out of thin air. It has a large basis for the research, or it would never had been approved or built.

It's a mindset thing. You either assume that some things have a greater likelihood of producing a result, or you assume every endeavour is equally valid and so all avenues shoudl be explored. There just isn't enough time or money to do everything, so effort needs to be spent on those things that might produce results.

Occam's Razor is a valuable tool for critical thinking and rational decision making.
 (I helped save b3ta! chart cat has an itch, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 11:59, , Reply)
This is a normal post Why not apply it here?

(I helped save b3ta! LordManley twitter.com/LordManley, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 12:07, , Reply)
This is a normal post Erm...
I have. That's exactly why I started this thread! If you apply Occam's Razor (the simplest explanation is probably the correct one, in the absence of contradictory evidence) to this mindless experiment, one is left with a simple conclusion:

Don't bother.
 (I helped save b3ta! chart cat has an itch, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 12:27, , Reply)
This is a normal post You complete idiot
Occam's Theory does not suggest not bothering to do research to find the facts just because you have made an assumption, if it does then it is, as you put it yourself "a load of bollocks".

"Assumption is the mother of all fuck ups."

That isn't a theory, that is a fact.




Edit: I wanted to change "complete idiot" to fool, but b3ta won't let me, oh well...
 (I helped save b3ta! Firkinfedup last shat on your wife's tits at, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 12:32, , Reply)
This is a normal post That's because this has already been Front Paged ;)

(I helped save b3ta! Redsushi! Whoop! Whoop! Yes, that one!, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 12:42, , Reply)
This is a normal post Yes dear.
Science is not a doctrine.

Assuming that you are right and others are wrong and not bothering to test is precisely the ignorance you are accusing the religious nutjobs of.

At least they don't pretend that they have reached their conclusion logically.
 (I helped save b3ta! LordManley twitter.com/LordManley, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 12:35, , Reply)
This is a normal post Are you serious?
So why the fuck study and research anything? Surely the term probably in the statement suggests as much that one should set out to find the contradictory evidence all the more.

Granted, studying why leaves are green would be a stupid endeavour. But the fact is that it has been proven categorically the reason why.

No-one has ever proven or disproved that there is a spirit world! Therefore, in my opinion, it is not unreasonable to further research it.
 (I helped save b3ta! Redsushi! Whoop! Whoop! Yes, that one!, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 12:36, , Reply)
This is a normal post "theory"
it has only one meaning
 (I helped save b3ta! Firkinfedup last shat on your wife's tits at, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 12:30, , Reply)
This is a normal post "It is a load of bollocks" is about as scientific as "god made it that way".
Are you a scientist? You sure don't talk like one.
 (I helped save b3ta! gronkpan https://twitter.com/VomitingLarry, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 12:23, , Reply)
This is a normal post Well
putting images on shelves doesn't really sound that expensive.

And I don't see how it's validating the "theory" that you're floating up to heaven or what not
 (I helped save b3ta! The Coast Of Yemen, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 11:23, , Reply)
This is a normal post It's not the expense
but the principle of the experiment in the first place. I get angry when science is wasted on disproving irrational theories so it can then proceed with more important things. The burden of proof for these wild claims of near-death experience should rest with the claimants, not the scientific establishment.

It's like the idea of conducting a double-blind study to see if the power of prayer assists with healing. There's no rational reason to believe that it would, but still these studies go ahead. As a person of science and rigour, I find it incredibly frustrating to see resources being spent in this way.

Has any scientific study ever produced evidence of paranormal activity (which by definition is anything that cannot eventually be explained by science)? No, it has not and as the definition suggests, it cannot. This study will be no different. It is a folly, nothing more.

Those who say "go on, give it a chance" are somewhat naive and miss the point. There's always a miniscule chance that *any* study will bring about some new understanding, but in studies like this, that's only going to happen by accident.
 (I helped save b3ta! chart cat has an itch, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 11:48, , Reply)
This is a normal post Well, I disagree
The best way to prove someone is wrong is with empirical evidence.
 (I helped save b3ta! The Coast Of Yemen, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 11:58, , Reply)
This is a normal post And anyway
I'm sure there have been studies where people have been sure one thing was going to happen, and were totally surprised by the outcome.
 (I helped save b3ta! The Coast Of Yemen, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 12:01, , Reply)
This is a normal post No!
Say it aint so Coasty! Science knows everything surely?
 (I helped save b3ta! Redsushi! Whoop! Whoop! Yes, that one!, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 12:10, , Reply)
This is a normal post QED!
www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0N_CHOZKZM
 (I helped save b3ta! Redsushi! Whoop! Whoop! Yes, that one!, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 12:18, , Reply)
This is a normal post I agree with that too
But why should it be necessary? Just because there's a crackpot theory with no conceivable explanation in science, why is it then given enough credence to warrant further scientific investigation?

My point is simply that the chances of anything being positively proven are close to zero. Doing experiments just to prove that something is wrong when you are already certain of the outcome is a waste of time.
 (I helped save b3ta! chart cat has an itch, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 12:07, , Reply)
This is a normal post Time is relative
Therefore, what may be a waste of your time is not necessarily a waste of someone else's

;)
 (I helped save b3ta! The Coast Of Yemen, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 12:15, , Reply)
This is a normal post You are certain it is wrong?

(I helped save b3ta! LordManley twitter.com/LordManley, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 12:46, , Reply)
This is a normal post
Onus of proof is a shit argument.

If the out of body chap wants me to believe that there is an out of body experience then the onus is on him, if you want me to believe that there is not then the onus is on you.

What we have is a very unusual situation which, when experienced, often results in the subject reporting a common feeling of leaving the body.

Since the only reports we have are from those subjects then it makes sense to see what causes this common theme.

The result that they see pictures is not an expected one, but it is worth checking anything where so many subjects report similar results, particularly when the cost is so very low.

it may be that we get an insight into what is seen - maybe if they were shown the room from above before the operation and then the pictures were changed then we would get an idea of memory displacement, but probably chucking a few old prints on a top shelf is a very cheap way to see if they see anything.

'Tell you what Jack, let's chuck this old Constable print up on the shelf there, then we'll know whether they really do float, the barmy buggers'
'yeah, okay Maud, here, lend me a chair to stand on'

Hardly a 'waste' of science.
 (I helped save b3ta! LordManley twitter.com/LordManley, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 12:05, , Reply)
This is a normal post I don't want you to believe anything in particular
I'd rather you just dismissed this experiment for what it is; a complete waste of effort.
 (I helped save b3ta! chart cat has an itch, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 12:17, , Reply)
This is a normal post I hope I am not speaking out of turn Pedantichrist,
but I think that is the point he is trying to make. That is isn't a waste of effort to the scientists who have proposed and are working on the project clearly. The fact of the matter is that there may be a spirit world, and there may not be. However, the purpose of science is to prove it one way or the other. Which means that some experiments will need to be done over and over until there is conclusive proof surely?
 (I helped save b3ta! Redsushi! Whoop! Whoop! Yes, that one!, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 12:29, , Reply)
This is a normal post At least they will need to be done if anyone wants to be able to say one way or the other.
To be honest, when the experiment involves putting a picture on the top shelf it seems ridiculous not to do it.
 (I helped save b3ta! LordManley twitter.com/LordManley, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 12:43, , Reply)
This is a normal post 25 hospitals in the UK and America
All recording the results and analysing them, each requiring effort, time and expense.

Rather more than "jputting a picture on the top shelf"

But then you already knew that. I get the feeling I'm being trolled quite a bit here by about three or four people who seem to have an incontrovertible (yet inexplicable) belief that all experimentation is equally worthy.

It isn't.
 (I helped save b3ta! chart cat has an itch, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 13:03, , Reply)
This is a normal post That is not what anyone has said whatsoever.
However, the argument against your statement is that you say it has no worth. A very different thing from saying it has less worth than finding a cure for cancer say.

I don't think anyone in their right mind would claim that.
 (I helped save b3ta! Redsushi! Whoop! Whoop! Yes, that one!, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 13:07, , Reply)
This is a normal post I don't understand what makes you the judge of what is worthy and what isn't.
You haven't offered a rational argument to suggest that you have the capacity to make those decisions.

We'd still be in the dark ages with your idea of "science".
 (I helped save b3ta! gronkpan https://twitter.com/VomitingLarry, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 13:10, , Reply)
This is a normal post I don't think the Rt Hon Gentleman has any response anymore....

(I helped save b3ta! Redsushi! Whoop! Whoop! Yes, that one!, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 13:24, , Reply)
This is a normal post yes im sure your idea of testing thoeries based on random shit will work great
"care to help me test wether my hypothis being an energy wave based on my expriance of light defracting through glass". "no no im far to busy trying to find the invisable faires down the bottom of my garden, it could be true for all we know you cant prove its not!"
 (zaitsevrogue9, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 13:46, , Reply)
This is a normal post But it isn't random.
Many many people have claimed to have these experiences!
 (I helped save b3ta! Redsushi! Whoop! Whoop! Yes, that one!, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 13:49, , Reply)
This is a normal post yeah many poeple of lots of diffrent hallucniations many times on a common theme
why pick out the haaluncion about death in order to test
 (zaitsevrogue9, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 13:52, , Reply)
This is a normal post Because it is easy to test?

(I helped save b3ta! LordManley twitter.com/LordManley, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 14:45, , Reply)
This is a normal post If someone has a theory and they want to test it in real life
then that is what we call SCIENCE.

If they get proven wrong, then well done, now we know.

If it can't be proven either way, it isn't science and as such shouldn't be argued about. That would be pointless.

Did you read the article?

"this is a mystery that we can now subject to scientific study"

So if it turns out to be wrong, they get to shut the fuck up.

THIS IS HOW SCIENCE WORKS.

Do you understand what the scientific method is? It's great, you should look into it.
 (I helped save b3ta! gronkpan https://twitter.com/VomitingLarry, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 13:56, , Reply)
This is a normal post im not questiong wether its a scintific exsperiment
im questionig the basis for the beilf that the theory has a resanble exspectation of being true. its not a scintific theory there are such things as scintific thereis im questiong wehter or not the after life is one
 (zaitsevrogue9, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 14:05, , Reply)
This is a normal post That's well outside the scope of the original discussion.
Afterlife vs out of body experiences can be a discussion for another day.
 (I helped save b3ta! gronkpan https://twitter.com/VomitingLarry, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 14:13, , Reply)
This is a normal post This study sounds interesting
I doubt it's going to cost a lot to put pictures on shelves and then ask people that are revived what they saw. Nobody, but nobody even has the remotest clue what the conscious mind is, or how it resides in the brain. Some good books I would like to recommend if you haven't read them already are Gödel, Escher, Bach: an Eternal Golden Braid by Douglas Hofstadter and The Mind's I - same author.
 (I helped save b3ta! Brandy_Bumwinkle, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 11:23, , Reply)
This is a normal post Oh no no no
"It's all bollocks" - chart cat said so and we should follow his words blindly.

Nobody question anything, put all your faith in SCIENCE.
 (I helped save b3ta! gronkpan https://twitter.com/VomitingLarry, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 12:29, , Reply)
This is a normal post Give me one valid reason to study this scientifically
and I will retract my otherwise bulletproof claim that this absurd experiment is bollocks.
 (I helped save b3ta! chart cat has an itch, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 12:33, , Reply)
This is a normal post But this is the point.
You are proving with each statement you make that you are just as bad as fundamentalists in any walk of life and with any belief.

What makes you so arrogant as to say that you are undoubtedly right? Granted, you may have ration to your beliefs, but who the fuck are you to say that you know that there is no Spirit world definitively?
 (I helped save b3ta! Redsushi! Whoop! Whoop! Yes, that one!, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 12:40, , Reply)
This is a normal post More importantly, who is he to suggest someone should or shouldn't do a scientific experiment?
That's REAL fundie talk right there.
 (I helped save b3ta! gronkpan https://twitter.com/VomitingLarry, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 12:55, , Reply)
This is a normal post who is he to suggest somthing?

(zaitsevrogue9, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 13:35, , Reply)
This is a normal post I know of him as "chart cat".
Are his suggestions refutable?
 (I helped save b3ta! gronkpan https://twitter.com/VomitingLarry, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 13:41, , Reply)
This is a normal post I'm yet to hear a valid reason why anyone shouldn't - "It's all bollocks" is not a valid reason.
Humans are naturally inquisitive. It's what makes us human.

You're suggesting that we all stop asking questions. That's fucking retarded, completely unscientific and it won't achieve anything worthwhile.
 (I helped save b3ta! gronkpan https://twitter.com/VomitingLarry, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 12:52, , Reply)
This is a normal post Bohr's concept of the atom turned out to be wrong
but it certainly opened up a lot of discussion.

I wonder where we would be today if they all just said "it's a load of bollocks".
 (I helped save b3ta! gronkpan https://twitter.com/VomitingLarry, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 12:57, , Reply)
This is a normal post WE'DBEINAMERICALOLS!

(I helped save b3ta! Redsushi! Whoop! Whoop! Yes, that one!, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 13:03, , Reply)
This is a normal post Not at all
Some questions are more retarded than others though.

"Will I be able to see this picture of a duck on the top shelf as I approach death?"

There, that's one of them.
 (I helped save b3ta! chart cat has an itch, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 13:29, , Reply)
This is a normal post "will I be able to turn lead into gold using my own distilled piss?"
There's another.

I'm glad they tried. It means I can have a mobile phone with a long lasting battery.
 (I helped save b3ta! gronkpan https://twitter.com/VomitingLarry, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 13:31, , Reply)
This is a normal post Surely the whole purpose of science to start with
is to prove or disprove a theory, whereas all you appear to be doing is dismissing completely without foundation or proof the non existence of something. If it really is a load of bollocks, scientific research is one way to investigate further and perhaps find out for sure. Hence it's not a waste of time. Waste of funding maybe, but not time.

You appear to be both anti science and anti religion. And a bit angry/bonkers on top of that.
 (Hullandback, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 13:04, , Reply)
This is a normal post WIN :D
If only this had an I Like This button :D
 (I helped save b3ta! Redsushi! Whoop! Whoop! Yes, that one!, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 13:10, , Reply)
This is a normal post Anti religion, yes, definitely
Anti science though? How did you arrive there?

Real-world science is not about trying to test everything; that's just impossible. The whole point of my posting was to highlight the wasting of scientific endeavours on trivial pursuits like this one. The vaguest critical analysis of the experiment itself shows that it will not --and can not-- produce a positive result. If that is the case, why bother doing it? Therefore, my whole point is that it's a complete waste of time.

There's a famous philosophical experiment which seeks to prove that there *isn't* a teapot orbiting the sun between Earth and Mars. The experiment is a fool's errand, it will prove nothing, apart from that which is already within the realm of reasonable assumption.

Is it wrong to assume that there is no teapot? Most scientists would say no. If not, why is it wrong to assume that this experiment will be a total waste of time too? It has about as much chance of success, given our exisitng knowledge of real vs make-believe.

If I seem angry, it's because a lot of people don't seem to have the capability to make rational decisions any more. Too much credibility is given to wasting money and effort on rubbish like this poxy experiment.
 (I helped save b3ta! chart cat has an itch, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 13:25, , Reply)
This is a normal post MODERN CHEMISTRY WAS CREATED BY PEOPLE TRYING TO TURN LEAD INTO GOLD USING THEIR PISS.

(I helped save b3ta! gronkpan https://twitter.com/VomitingLarry, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 13:28, , Reply)
This is a normal post Well I think you have shown the problem here.
You consider it all Real vs. Make Believe but it isn't.

It is known versus unknown.
 (I helped save b3ta! Redsushi! Whoop! Whoop! Yes, that one!, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 13:29, , Reply)
This is a normal post My definition of make-believe
Anything which cannot be explained or theorised by application of scientific rigour.

This stuff about departing souls isn't theoretical science you know, it's just an idea with no basis in fact whatsoever. Show me a scientist with a working theory of the existence of a soul, and I'll show you faith in disguise.

Known vs Unknown is quite a different matter. Should we pursue knowledge? Absolutely. Should it be based on testable theories? Absolutely. Should we test every theory which otherwise explains away the unknown? Perhaps not... a pale bloke down the road from me claims to be a vampire. I'm pretty sure he isn't one, but I don't think I need to prove it conclusively by experiment.
 (I helped save b3ta! chart cat has an itch, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 13:47, , Reply)
This is a normal post Can I just make sure I understand you correctly here then?
By your reasoning, up until whenever it was, anything smaller than the atom was make believe? But at the moment it was seen that an atom is made up of even smaller parts, it travelled from the ethereal into the real world? Or do you believe that we have perfected Science?
 (I helped save b3ta! Redsushi! Whoop! Whoop! Yes, that one!, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 13:55, , Reply)
This is a normal post No, you misunderstood
Theorising that atoms are made of smaller components was not only possible, but documented long before it could be proven. There was a good basis for a theory and it received the proper attention.

What basis is there to theorise the existence of a soul via the medium of 'near-death experience'? Individual testimony? Talk about an unreliable witness... you must be kidding me.

Why bother trying to prove the soul exists, or not? It's just faith. It has no basis in science at all.
 (I helped save b3ta! chart cat has an itch, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 14:07, , Reply)
This is a normal post I myself do not know what benefit could be gained
from discovering there is a soul.

However, I am not Stephen Hawking, or Richard Dawkins or whoever.

At the same time, I don't know why we need to know whether or not the Higgs Boson exists to be honest. However, just because I do not understand as well as more educated people, doesn't mean that I am against them searching. To be honest, my life would not change one way or the other if it were proven or disproved that people have souls. But I will not tell people what to search for and what not to!
 (I helped save b3ta! Redsushi! Whoop! Whoop! Yes, that one!, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 14:15, , Reply)
This is a normal post mate dont worry
there only saying this crap becusae "spriat worlds" and monothestic relgions are such cultraly ecceptable ideas. relgion vs scince is only seen as a valdid debate becasue people have beilved in god for so long. there is as much eveidnce for harry potter as there is for any relgious idea. yet if you suggested to theses guys an exsperment at a train station to see if harry pottor was going to come out the wall they would think you were crasy
 (zaitsevrogue9, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 13:39, , Reply)
This is a normal post I think you'll find that we're all pro-science on this side of the argument.
WHY DOESN'T ANYONE HAVE ANYTHING BAD TO SAY ABOUT TRYING TO TURN LEAD INTO GOLD USING DISTILLED PISS?
 (I helped save b3ta! gronkpan https://twitter.com/VomitingLarry, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 13:43, , Reply)
This is a normal post It was done because they believed
it was possible.

Who are we to argue against ancient beliefs? It is not their fault that they hadn't discovered as much as us yet.

And as you say, it lead to modern chemistry ;)
 (I helped save b3ta! Redsushi! Whoop! Whoop! Yes, that one!, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 13:47, , Reply)
This is a normal post i did youve written like a million times
go back and look
 (zaitsevrogue9, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 13:48, , Reply)
This is a normal post No you didn't
I pointed out where chemistry came from and you described how it evolved.
 (I helped save b3ta! gronkpan https://twitter.com/VomitingLarry, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 13:51, , Reply)
This is a normal post yeah but my point was that now we have scintific reasoning we dont need to rely on just doing random shit
so i dont see how your point is valid
 (zaitsevrogue9, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 13:55, , Reply)
This is a normal post Chemistry came from alchemy.
If some nutter hadn't tried to turn lead into gold using their piss, we wouldn't be where we are today.

But still they shouldn't have bothered, it's all a load of bollocks.
 (I helped save b3ta! gronkpan https://twitter.com/VomitingLarry, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 13:58, , Reply)
This is a normal post omg im not saying they shouldnt ahve bothered
im saying theres a better method now so yets use that
 (zaitsevrogue9, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 14:03, , Reply)
This is a normal post Superglue was invented by accident
So were twisties, they're nice.

Sure, we don't have to go around sucking on cow's tits to see what comes out anymore, but we're naturally inquisitive. That's how we move forward as a species.

Why would you try and discourage this?
 (I helped save b3ta! gronkpan https://twitter.com/VomitingLarry, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 14:21, , Reply)
This is a normal post Now you're just being a fucking idiot!
You quite clearly have not read a single word anyone has written.

Either that or you are horrendously arrogant and think that your opinion, and those who agree unerringly with you, is the only one that is worthy and valid, and refuse to accept nayone elses!
 (I helped save b3ta! Redsushi! Whoop! Whoop! Yes, that one!, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 13:44, , Reply)
This is a normal post NO NO SOMEBODY CONSIDERED RELIGION
THAT MEANS THEIR OPINION IS INVALID, LIKE GALILEO'S.
 (I helped save b3ta! gronkpan https://twitter.com/VomitingLarry, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 13:47, , Reply)
This is a normal post jesus christ im only trying to point out the logical result of regarding all rando shit you make up as valid
if you think there might be spriat worlds why no middle earth, why not faires down the garden, why not wizards hiding in the malyan jungle. why dont we test all these things based on your veiw on scince we should.
 (zaitsevrogue9, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 13:51, , Reply)
This is a normal post Please, go on.
Tell me what I believe in.
 (I helped save b3ta! gronkpan https://twitter.com/VomitingLarry, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 14:00, , Reply)
This is a normal post im not telling you what you beilve ibn
im saying that if we as a soceity are to accept teh testing of relgious beilfs as a valid use of resorcses why limit to relgious beilfs and not allthings with as much grounding as relgious beilfs, like all the other stuff which is made up
 (zaitsevrogue9, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 14:02, , Reply)
This is a normal post Atheists can have out of body experiences too!
Some might refuse to admit it, but we can put that down to cognitive dissonance.

Does this mean there is an afterlife? maybe. I don't think that's what the study is trying to prove.
 (I helped save b3ta! gronkpan https://twitter.com/VomitingLarry, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 14:25, , Reply)
This is a normal post im arrogant becuase i think my opinion is worthy invalid?
so to stop being arrogant i ahve to think my opinion is unworthy and invlaid? i you sure you dont think arrgogant because i disaghree with you?
 (zaitsevrogue9, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 14:00, , Reply)
This is a normal post My apologies,
now edited to say what I actually meant to say.
 (I helped save b3ta! Redsushi! Whoop! Whoop! Yes, that one!, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 14:08, , Reply)
This is a normal post the fact that im continuley responding to peoples arguments througout this debate
would suggest im reading what theve written. so i guess im jsut arrgogant for having an opinion that you dont share then
 (zaitsevrogue9, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 14:11, , Reply)
This is a normal post That is not what I am saying and you know it full well.

(I helped save b3ta! Redsushi! Whoop! Whoop! Yes, that one!, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 14:18, , Reply)
This is a normal post MODERN CHEMISTRY WAS CREATED BY PEOPLE TRYING TO TURN LEAD INTO GOLD USING THEIR PISS.

(I helped save b3ta! gronkpan https://twitter.com/VomitingLarry, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 13:27, , Reply)
This is a normal post it was created by lots of things
in the end developments in chemistry where massivly acclerated by the adoption of scitific reasoning, dropping the trial and error random bulshit aproach wich had seen hardly any developments in thousands of years.
 (zaitsevrogue9, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 13:42, , Reply)
This is a normal post Where did it start?

(I helped save b3ta! gronkpan https://twitter.com/VomitingLarry, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 13:44, , Reply)
This is a normal post it dosnt mattere if it started from something unscintific
the whole point was that is before scence as we know it today was developed so its going to come form somthing whcih isnt scince. that dosnt mean we should still use the old method. a modern rifle evolved from an old fansioned muskit thats not an argument for going back to msukits
 (zaitsevrogue9, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 13:58, , Reply)
This is a normal post Yeah, it kinda does matter.
If it didn't start somewhere, it wouldn't have grown into what it is.

A modern rifle evolved from people throwing rocks. Personally I don't like either option but people still throw rocks and shoot each other.

Not that this is even vaguely related to my above argument. I think you've just got a chip on your shoulder.
 (I helped save b3ta! gronkpan https://twitter.com/VomitingLarry, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 14:05, , Reply)
This is a normal post ok it is related heres why
i accept that it was good that people expserimented before scintific reasoning in a non scintfic way. but now that we have scince we should go back to doing things in the less productive way much like my example with the rifel please dont restate teh fact that it started chemesry, i havent argued that it wasnt neccasry only that it is npo longer neccsary
 (zaitsevrogue9, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 14:09, , Reply)
This is a normal post I don't think you can establish that it's no longer necessary
Discoveries will always be made by dumb luck, by people just playing around, by people doing things that they don't completely understand.

Fantastic discoveries, not just post-it notes or twisties. Humankind advances because we use our inquisitive minds. It's a good thing and it should be encouraged.
 (I helped save b3ta! gronkpan https://twitter.com/VomitingLarry, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 14:18, , Reply)
This is a normal post Hmm okay, in order to do that we will have to see whether or not it is worth investigating.
We could do that by putting pictures on a top shelf and seeing whether people can see them, would that do?
 (I helped save b3ta! LordManley twitter.com/LordManley, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 14:46, , Reply)
This is a normal post I'm sure this has been done before somewhere...
but I expect they will find no evidence whatsoever of any tangible 'out-of-body' experience, but may find that hallucinations correlate with certain states of brain activity.

It would be an ethical nightmare though:
"This chap's on his way out, can we shove him in your MRI to scan his bonce? Oh, and while you're at it, put this picture of a duck on the shelf..."
 (I helped save b3ta! TheAlmightyBeev, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 11:37, , Reply)
This is a normal post lol
good one.
 (I helped save b3ta! Brandy_Bumwinkle, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 11:45, , Reply)
This is a normal post to be honest im sure this study ha been done to death
im sure when it inevtiable comes up negative it wont get reported. while were at why dont we do a double blind exsperimnet to see if mystic meg really can predict lotteryresults
 (zaitsevrogue9, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 11:52, , Reply)
This is a normal post It has been done to death
The repetition is a waste of time.
Not just of the 25 hospitals, but all the time wasted on this (and every other board) debating it.

Every study is negative- nothing flies around the room.
What you experience is determined by your culture - Japanese do not see a white tunnel, and Mary. So it is not an experience of an external, objective reality.

NDE's - just dreams.

And whining "We don't know everything, maybe there's something...." cost us so much time and wasted energy.

Sorry, elf-lovers, unicorn-riders and god-botherers. Go sit in the corner with the Bigfoot and UFO nuts where you belong.
 (Fred Trellis I am her son. Get over it., Thu 18 Sep 2008, 14:10, , Reply)
This is a normal post cheers
that and the fact that braindammage effecting mental ablity preety much porves materlism i would say ends the debate
 (zaitsevrogue9, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 14:12, , Reply)
This is a normal post Thank you for turning up to the discussion 3 hours after it started
and so succinctly destroying people's beliefs with your overly pejorative and negative terms.
 (I helped save b3ta! Redsushi! Whoop! Whoop! Yes, that one!, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 14:22, , Reply)
This is a normal post he was preety dam awseome wasnt he

(zaitsevrogue9, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 14:34, , Reply)
This is a normal post You're very welcome
Thank you for saying thank you.
 (Fred Trellis I am her son. Get over it., Thu 18 Sep 2008, 15:26, , Reply)
This is a normal post HEY I THINK I MIGHT BE ABLE TO TURN LEAD INTO GOLD USING DISTILLED PISS
OH SHIT! I JUST FOUNDED MODERN CHEMISTRY.

WHAT A WASTE OF TIME AND ENERGY THAT WAS.

Please take your anti-science hatespeech elsewhere.
 (I helped save b3ta! gronkpan https://twitter.com/VomitingLarry, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 14:28, , Reply)
This is a normal post omg you are such a tard
he just pointed out that it has already bin conducted and found that poeple couldnt report on pcitures when in near death exspriacnes if you want to argue with him you have to argue with his reasarch its the only way.
 (zaitsevrogue9, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 14:35, , Reply)
This is a normal post Yes, he certainly gave a lot of references.
Very scientific.
 (I helped save b3ta! gronkpan https://twitter.com/VomitingLarry, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 14:40, , Reply)
This is a normal post References, as requested
www.google.com
 (Fred Trellis I am her son. Get over it., Thu 18 Sep 2008, 15:25, , Reply)
This is a normal post Oh, I see!
No I'm in favour of science.

However, when we have a wheel, there is no need to investigate those strange things in the corner which seem to move really easily when pushed, is it because they are round? Or are angels carrying the weight?

The studies have been done.
The results are in.

It is tiresome to keep going back over old ground because someone's just reached puberty, and is full of 'original' thoughts. They may well be original to you, well done for inventing this, and discovering that. And that is not meant as sarcasm either - if no-one told you about germs, and you discovered it, that is impressive even though it's been done before - it's the same effort for you to discover, as the someone credited with being the discoverer.

But if the germ theory of disease exists, why should we spend more time investigating yellow and black humours?

As a person, we are inventing and learning new things all the time. As a species, we at least know where our ignorance lies.

So.let's concentrate on our "species-ignorance", not re-hashing subjects that arise due to an individuals ignorance.

Sorry for being 3 hours late to the debate. Next time somebody says something interesting, please telephone me immediately. Thank you.
 (Fred Trellis I am her son. Get over it., Thu 18 Sep 2008, 15:35, , Reply)
This is a normal post I have not read through all of this thread
but I cannot believe that such shite as some of those replies that I have read are have been posted on B3TA.

I'll throw my oar in...
ALL religions are bullshit.... ALL those who are religious are suffering from a form of mental illness.... it's just a matter of degree. The answer to EVERYTHING is scientific.... anything that is, as yet, unexplained simply means science has no answer YET.

I really do despair at the amount of religious nut jobs that still exist in the 21st century.
 (I helped save b3ta! Flash_Bastard, Thu 18 Sep 2008, 22:37, , Reply)